Re: Something Wicked This Way Comes part 4! On CL 24-August

[Mike Ratledge]

Always keeping at least one Ace up my sleeve, there is still something really big that will only be revealed when CardLauncher.com goes "live" between 20-July and 1-August.

I have always wanted to do something to leave my name in playing card decks history, and this is revolutionary rather than evolutionary! It will change the way we look at new decks and forever change the way we look forward to new deck projects. By the time this happens, it will be a proven technology and I will be able to share with you exactly what I figured out how to do.

I can give you a couple of hints; in the 1960's a company in Germany named Zander GMBH tried, and that was over 60 years ago. They made around 200 self-promotional decks per year for 7 years that were only meant to be professional samples to prove that it could be done, so a total of less than 1000 of these were ever made and only a very few are left in the hands of collectors - mostly in the Westphalia region of Germany. I have found one sample of what they did, and it is truly amazing! Another company tried to do it in 1885, but never got beyond the prototype phase. I have heard of less than 10 examples that are known to collectors - ever, and the last time one was sold a single deck went for over $5000. That deck I got from the retired factory manager from back in the 60's is in mint condition! It's a simply amazing example. They even have a "Zander Fine Papers" logo branded on the back of the cards - an obvious reference and self-promotional deck if there ever was one, might as well have "Prototype" on it - because that's exactly what it was, another 200 decks made every time they ran out of salesmen's samples at about 15 month intervals.

CardLauncher.com Beta Test!

CardLauncher.com Goes LIVE!

I reset the count-down clocks to July 4th and July 25th, which I now think are realistic dates. (A week earlier)

After all, we are already in a very limited "sandbox" testing environment, and I didn't expect to see that.

[bamabenz]

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[Mike Ratledge]

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Well, I'm sure we'll do a truly 3 dimensional deck sooner or later, but that's not even close. Think about how colorful some of the older photographics souvenir decks made by USPCC ("Bicycle" ) were back in the early 1900's. As I noted, their attempt at this was in 1885, and only 7 or 8 (maybe 9?) prototype decks of it are known, and it has four distrinct backs.

[Maddest Hammer]

The deck you're talking about is the 12 color deck you posted a few weeks ago on "Hey, look..." thread, yes? So, getting a printer (I'm going to go out on a limb and say EPCC's printer in Taiwan) to run a 12 color press would open up opportunities for a wildly colorful deck.

[Mike Ratledge]

That single mint/sealed deck does indeed have a 12 spot color process, but it's not practical logistically or financially:

I'd love to do so, but the facts are that with today's modern Heidelberg presses - be they the standard sheet fed ones or USPCC's monstrous roll fed variety, it's just not do-able other than by taking a single sheet and letting the press 'bite' it three times. The cull rate would be 75% or higher, meaning you MIGHT be able to get 20-25% yield by hand tossing more than 3 out of 4 (or realistically about 4 out of 5) decks because the alignment and registration wasn't exact for all 3 'bites', thus whatever cost you computed just want up from 400 to 500% in reality (and costs would be roughly 3 times as much because you'd need 12 plates, 12 setups, etc), so larger quantities would be required to even pray for a decent yield and even 25,000 printed might get you 5000 or 6000 decks if you're lucky.

You're hot, frankly, but 12 spot color just can't be done for these reasons, it's a nice idea, but not logistically do-able or even if you decide that you can live with a 75% defect rate the costs will eat your lunch. You're onto me, Bro Hammer!

[chach]

That's the same thing that I was thinking, but guess I'm wrong. Considering your past record I'd say whatever it is you have up your sleeve will live up to the hype.

[Maddest Hammer]

Looking at the chromolux web page, I'll venture out a bit. A single card stock (as opposed to the "laminate" two sheet and black glue that uspcc uses), 350gsm, nice and thick, fairly stiff, not see-thru. And maybe even a little shiny. You said I was hot before, if this ain't it, then I'm lost

[Aussie888]

Is the poll title a hint?
If so, perhaps something like, you can only see what's on the other side of the cards. So if you look at the face you see the backs, and if you look at the backs you see the face.

Perhaps something with thermal inks.

I was going to suggest some kind of embossed cards but embossed in such a way that you can't see the embossing from the other side, but from your hints it looks like colour is more relevant.

[Mike Ratledge]

Is the poll title a hint?
If so, perhaps something like, you can only see what's on the other side of the cards. So if you look at the face you see the backs, and if you look at the backs you see the face.

Perhaps something with thermal inks.

I was going to suggest some kind of embossed cards but embossed in such a way that you can't see the embossing from the other side, but from your hints it looks like colour is more relevant.

Again, sounds really great, but the logistics of doing such a thing, just can't even begin to put together a methodology that would make this dream come true. It's a great idea, frankly - and I'll put it on the dance card for future reference, but logically (and logistically speaking), I'm coming up with nuttin'.

[volantangel]

Perhaps something with thermal inks.

One of the conditions of maintaining the deck in decent condition is to not subject it to extreme temps. So... Maybe not this time

[Mike Ratledge]

Looking at the chromolux web page, I'll venture out a bit. A single card stock (as opposed to the "laminate" two sheet and black glue that uspcc uses), 350gsm, nice and thick, fairly stiff, not see-thru. And maybe even a little shiny. You said I was hot before, if this ain't it, then I'm lost

huh. Well, as I'm certain everybody is aware, when I post something like this, just like for everyone participating, it's a learning experience for "everybody that's watching", just like it was with Lotrek's Black Gold, eventually named "Venexiana Gold" decks. Those are getting closer to reality, and as of today we're looking at about two weeks before he's going to be taking orders for these beautiful decks! I can't wait to have them in my hands, really - and the toys that I have "up my sleeve" are going to be quite the same - they are going to leave everybody salivating and itching to have them, uneasy in their seats from the moment each person sees them and talking about them around the world from that moment until the first deck of this type is delivered, and for some time - maybe forever, simply because these are just like I said, forever change what we expect out of playing card decks. Everybody on this side of the contest enjoys it just as much as the participants do, and there really won't be one single (or two) winners in this one, every single person here and anyone not participating is going to be a winner! I did my homework, everyone! I got a "50th Anniversary" bound book for Chromolux papers from the "Metsaboard" factory in Germany along with a sampling of currently available papers from them. Unfortunately what I found was that the two-sided (both printable) approx 400gsm paper that was used to make those nearly 1000 decks back in the mid- to late 1960's until 1972 aren't available, and really nothing even close exists amongst the paper stock still available these days. That's frankly too bad, because there's nothing that I would like to do more than bring it back for playing cards. Chromolux papers were and still are a great example of something that never reached its full potential. I wish this was what I was doing, but even I can't bring us something that just doesn't exist any more. I sure with I could, because a 12 spot color process would be perfect - just unfortunately not possible any more. I set out to try to do something along those lines, but in fact the highest quality bound they make (they - Germans - say "paperboard", we 'Mericuns say "cardboard" stock) is a 310gsm single-side printable 'board', and it's just not able to support what we need: both sides not only printable but in fact equality or at least parity in the finishes.

Keep 'em coming, folks! We're all listening, taking notes and truly enjoying this - yet again! We learn, too - and we always figure out how to do a few things you mention.

[Eoghann]

Damn, not again.

[Mike Ratledge]

Damn, not again.

Yeah, again!

[volantangel]

Can I win this time ? Can I can I ?

[Mike Ratledge]

Can I win this time ? Can I can I ?

No! LMAO - but technically as I have already noted we're all already winners in this one...

[Jock1971]

the Cards have frilly edges, not straight cut.

[montecarlojoe]

All cards will be hand crafted by Elves.

Actual. Real. ELVES.

[Cbkimble]

As i was reading the long post i was thinking a thicker paper stock. Would it be possible to print on top if foil?

[Mike Ratledge]

Nope, nope and nope... (the last three proposed solutions from Cbkimble, montecarlojoe & Jock1971)

[montecarlojoe]

Screen printed cards?

[Cbkimble]

they ground bacon and paper fibers together. it'll be the first deck you can eat...well. almost.

[Mike Ratledge]

they ground bacon and paper fibers together. it'll be the first deck you can eat...well. almost.

Not exactly - but very close... (not really close, either)

[Jock1971]

illuminated cards

[montecarlojoe]

Card plastic composite giving all the advantages of both materials?

[wahl0108]

Laser-etched cards?

[Cbkimble]

Mike said was done in the 1960s.

[markjanderson]

Are there manufacturers today that actually use paper that is dyed a color all the way through?
If not, is it just because most decks are actually not black or red (or any other color other than white) and it's cost prohibitive?

I've seen people talk about using Sharpies to color the edges of black or red decks because it's just a black or red background printed on white card stock.

Just wondering
Mark

[UtterFool]

I don't know if there are official card manufacturers that have paper died all the way through, but some printers do. It has been done for a deck before.
The stealth deck was done by some small printer and they used black cardstock.

[ecNate]

All cards will be hand crafted by Elves.

Actual. Real. ELVES.

Hopefully not of the angry variety. That NEVER ends well.

[Mike Ratledge]

No, no, no, no and no. This WAS done in the 60's but never caught on, and there were prototypes made in 1885 here in the US, of which only 8 or 9 examples are known. The total produced by a certain company between 1965 and 1972 was under 1000 decks, and they were all in very plain tuck boxes that had almost nothing identifying them as 'special' on them, so finding them is next to impossible.