Playing Cards Deconstructed with Royal Pips (KS)

[badpete69]

[th4mo]

Kind of a One Trick Pony.... and the one trick ain't all that impressive...

[vasta41]

Interesting idea... Probably would have bought one 3 years ago but a little sub-par with the standards these days.

[Godzillian]

Interesting idea... Probably would have bought one 3 years ago but a little sub-par with the standards these days.

This. For a $10 EB deck, I would expect the Courts to be much more custom than just enlarging them and moving them a little to the side. If the courts were custom, and the pips used the current style, it would be a much more interesting deck.

Also... no back???

[Chantili]

I agree about the pips.. Those are rather interesting. But everything else- ehhh. I just don't see the artistry; anything that jumps out as unique and original. imho.

[MagikFingerz]

Interesting concept, but it doesn't really work IMO. Had they made the pip designs more symmetric, I think it would have looked better. The randomness of it makes them look too busy.

[Jock1971]

Kind of a One Trick Pony.... and the one trick ain't all that impressive...

Judging by his past projects .he`s trying every trick in the book

[Widdee]

I agree about the pips.. Those are rather interesting. But everything else- ehhh. I just don't see the artistry; anything that jumps out as unique and original. imho.

Yes, kind of juvenile looking with a weak hook. Welcome aboard Chantili!

Interesting idea... Probably would have bought one 3 years ago but a little sub-par with the standards these days.

Would probably sell well at quilting bees but, yeah Vasta, looks like an early KS deck.

[vjose32]

So no back design images?

[volantangel]

Those pips actually look ok, but a deck whose main feature is the pips ? No thank you.

[Eoghann]

WTF are shifting plates? And why do the borders need to hold them?
Apologetic inlines of insufficient weights?

[tomas]

Tough crowd…
Since I am the author of the project, let me write a few comments.

The pictures are dated – there was a major revision at
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/33 ... royal-pips" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

th4mo
there a bit more to that, you are not impressed, fair enough

vasta41
the standards are indeed very high today, this is my first shot at playing cards, learning on a job.

godzillian
true, there was a lot of work on pips so I decided to start with redesigning the standard from scratch; I’ll do custom courts for the next one

chantili
same as above

magikfingerz
look at the new revision, a lot of changes, I think they work much better now.

Jack1971
“he is trying every trick in the book”
I take offense to that. I am a life-long inventor with several patents and I enjoy the concept of crowd funding – there are no tricks in anything I do.

My projects:

Playing Cards
I have quite a lot of experience in the field and you most probably got drunk on many products I created branding for, including Crown Royal, Seven Crowns, Capt Morgan or Bolshoi Vodka:
http://www.santoren.com/bd/graphic_design.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So playing cards are not “a trick” for me, they are indeed very compatible with my profession.

Midwife at Auschwitz:
my grandmother assisted in 3,000 births at Auschwitz; because of her activities hundreds of families found their kids after the war. She is an official candidate to become a catholic Saint, and that's not a joke. We are trying to make a movie about her life – read a story about her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislawa_Leszczynska" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Firewood Splitter:
I invented a new way of splitting firewood, engineered the product, produced it in China, delivered to all backers, and met with Home Depot buyers. No tricks here, just an insane amount of work.

Computer Friends:
I wrote series of children books (almost published); that’s the part of that project.
I worked as an illustrator for children’s books at one point in my life:
https://catalog.simonandschuster.com/Ti ... E187B65323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Flexiskates
I am an alpine ski racer, over 50 wins over the years. I skied before I walked… so don’t call my invention a trick, its years of testing and development. I worked on this project with members of US Junior Olympic Ski Team and they used it for their summer practice.

Widdee
fair enough

vjose32
backs will be posted tomorrow, Sunday 5/17

volantangel
I love the color play in pips cards and as a creative director I think they are amazing.
There is clearly a possibility that I am dead wrong, but it’s an attempt at creating something people may enjoy.

eoghann
it’s a printer’s joke – technical aspect of separations of precise graphics, something I did for years.
if you want a detailed explanation, send me an email.

This is my bio
https://www.linkedin.com/in/santoren" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is my contact info
tomas (at) santoren.com

[Mike Ratledge]

Welcome to the zoo! I will add you to the Deck Artist group so you can fight back. Enjoy!

[Jock1971]

Tough crowd…
Since I am the author of the project, let me write a few comments.

Jack1971
“he is trying every trick in the book”
I take offense to that. I am a life-long inventor with several patents and I enjoy the concept of crowd funding – there are no tricks in anything I do.

Hiya Tomas.
About my comment , It just seem`s to me that someone banging out unsuccessful projects of totally unrelated products in quick succession is trying every"trick" in the book to get a successful project, Yes one of your projects was successful and you`ve delivered to your backers ,for that i say well done.Why not Invent a range of goods related to that and capitalize on your success instead of trying another unrelated project ?

I`m Afraid i`m going to upset you again,
"look at the new revision, a lot of changes, I think they work much better now".
I honestly can`t see that much of a difference, sorry.

-Jock1971-

[tomas]

Hi jock,

You are missing the point, again. I provided you with the link to my bio, which you clearly ignored.

I am never upset by people voicing their opinion about my products; I am a true believer in free markets. The deck is 14% funded after 2 days and 57 backers like it so far; the Early Bird pricing is now all gone.

So let’s talk about the cards, the subject you seem to be passionate about and a brand new field to me. Who knows, maybe we can create the most amazing deck one day together.

I need to post a back design to the deck you hate later today. I had a geometric design posted but I received a few negative comments about it from the backers so I removed it.

I am not asking for a graphic design advice. I am trying to understand the importance of backs to people passionate about cards.

[Jock1971]

Hiya Thomas .
I applaud your response and the attitude in which you have taken my comments. I must admit that i don`t HATE your deck,I just don`t like it enough to back it.....YET !
As you say lets talk cards.
As a non-backer of your project i missed Back design and the various comments it received ,Maybe you could post it here with the updated version so that i and other non-backers can see the direction your taking the deck. Everyone has a different opinion and i`m glad your willing to listen to all of them.
-Jase-

[volantangel]

Ive seen the back design, it was a rather plain design reminiscent of a bee diamond back with a border. Nothing ground breaking.

Ok so lets talk more cards, what is the main selling point of the deck ? Its not the back for sure, from everything ive seen it seems to be the pips which is the main differentiating factor. However if you would realise, the pips are actually the least important factor in a deck of cards. It is not something that reallyyy make or break a deck, and to use that as your selling point, its definitely an uphill battle. Further more, I like the previous versions of the pips with more colours and a better contrast.

[Widdee]

Welcome to the jungle, Tomas, and you should be applauded for coming in to explain your work.

I wasn't being snide when I made the quilting remark, this art reminds me of a patchwork quilt. I've been eyeing your pics and cracking my head over what bugs me, and the square Diamonds for sure give me that quilting feel. While I like the old-style Clubs they tend to fight the simplicity of the other suits.

You could help the deck by doing a full bleed that stays in character with the faces, in other words a bold back with the same these used on the fronts. This is what we are talking about when we like consistency throughout a deck design.

Just my two cents, interesting to see where you go with it.

[sinjin7]

I am not asking for a graphic design advice. I am trying to understand the importance of backs to people passionate about cards.

The back of playing cards is the most ubiquitous design element in playing cards. Its what is usually featured on the back of the tuck box and its what's most commonly seen for people actually using/playing with the cards. It is what usually sets the theme for the overall style of the custom playing card. This is the biggest canvas in a deck where the designer/artist can display their chops. Here are some specific rules: Make them a symmetrical 2-way back design. Make the borders thin or interesting in a non-linear way (unless you go with a full-bleed borderless back design). Avoid a lot of text or words. Make it unique and eye catching.

I actually think pips are one of the most neglected aspects of playing card design. I always appreciate it when a designer takes the extra step and fully customizes the pips as well. I think your problem is that you've deconstructed your design too much, you basically painted yourself into a corner where the only focus is on the pips. While tastefully created custom pip design is important to enhance the design of a deck, I'm not sure if the pip design alone is enough to carry the design of the deck.

Why don't you create entirely custom court cards wearing clothing of your design, and deconstruct that into your pip design. That way, at least you have interesting custom court cards as well as pips. Make your Ace of Spade spectacular and create novel Jokers as well. I've already mentioned the importance of the back design. When you have the Courts, pips, Ace of Spades, Jokers, and back designs all working in concert, then you have a comprehensive, fully customized deck people can get behind.

[tomas]

that's correct, it was a plain bee-looking back.

the concept of the deck:
in a typical deck, there is a huge wealth gap between extremely colorful courts and flat color pips cards.
the deck is an attempt to bridge that gap and bring "royal" elements, which are abstract in color, to large, colorful pips.
if pips are not important, that alone is ground breaking, because this deck is all about pips
the comment about uphill battle is a valid one.
i decided to stay with the standard court design because the pips concept was extensive enough

previous version - nope, I see a huge improvement, the deck was unbalanced before, now it looks much better

sinjin - thanks for the comments about the back, they are very helpful.

[MagikFingerz]

Pips can be important, but other things are usually MORE important. I don't think pips are important enough to base the whole deck on. As Widdee said, consistency is a big part of deck design.

Reversing the order of importance is a neat idea, but ideally we want everything to be "important". Not having a back design (or custom courts) to go along with those pips can only hurt your project.

[Jock1971]

Hiya Tomas
I don`t really know where to begin, Firstly no one said the pips are not important only that they are the least important. You seem quite adamant about your deck being all about the pips, Fair Play it is your deck after all but with standard courts, Coloured in pips just won`t cut it i`m afraid,Even with a spectacular back design.The only way i can see a deck focusing on the pips working is the suggestion made by sinjin7

Why don't you create entirely custom court cards wearing clothing of your design, and deconstruct that into your pip design. That way, at least you have interesting custom court cards as well as pips. Make your Ace of Spade spectacular and create novel Jokers as well. I've already mentioned the importance of the back design. When you have the Courts, pips, Ace of Spades, Jokers, and back designs all working in concert, then you have a comprehensive, fully customized deck people can get behind.

That said i am interested to see what you come up with for a back design.
EDIT- Have just nipped over to the campaign page to check if any back design`s are there before i leave for work, Oh dear . There is no uniformity with the rest of the deck. i think the second would look good with a minimalist deck.Other than that i`m actually speechless with shock.

Also another thing about your campaign which has caught my attention is the funding goal of only $7,500 . This seems a bit on the low side for a deck being printed by USPCC .

[tomas]

I am not reversing the order of importance, i think pips blend with the rest of the deck. It is the rejection of the court card design which creates this reversal, i don't see it at all, and i don't reject the old standard, hence the difference in opinion. You still win, because u represent a clear majority.

I think the word consistency may be misused here, because the bee-type back was rejected, although it was clearly consistent with the rest. The "fontana" backs were absolutely not consistent with the standard fronts - and yet they were very successful, and used a standard front, which never offended anyone. We'll keep trying some other backs...

7500 is a break even point, i have the estimates for the entire production.

I run a test with everything reversed (black background) and it looks amazing; not sure if that gets me out of the penalty box for using old court figures.

[MagikFingerz]

Don't know what you mean by "rejection", we just much prefer custom ones because we all have 10's or even 100's of decks in our collection with the same standard courts.

As for the backs, we haven't seen them here yet. Removing something just because of a few negative comments isn't always a good idea

[tomas]

I don't have 100's of decks, i actually have only two, so my point of view is different. If someone has 100's of deck with standard courts, then what stops him with this one? You did buy 100's before, so it's not really about the courts, otherwise u would never amass such collection. I get the preference of custom now, but the deck was constructed to bridge the wealth between the courts and pips cards, so it needed the starting point in standard courts, otherwise it would be an exercise about something else.

What do u do with your decks? Do u save them, display them or use all of them to play cards?

[volantangel]

I don't have 100's of decks, i actually have only two, so my point of view is different. If someone has 100's of deck with standard courts, then what stops him with this one? You did buy 100's before, so it's not really about the courts, otherwise u would never amass such collection. I get the preference of custom now, but the deck was constructed to bridge the wealth between the courts and pips cards, so it needed the starting point in standard courts, otherwise it would be an exercise about something else.

What do u do with your decks? Do u save them, display them or use all of them to play cards?

Sure thing, i have hundreds of decks but only a 20% of them are standard faces. And why do i have them ? Look at the price point, $6 or less a deck with standard courts is acceptable and i would buy them. Your deck simply doesnt have the amount of art put into it to justify the price.

Different decks have different purposes, whether its for display, for card games, or just mucking around, would i use a $20 deck for mucking around ? Hell no.

Ps. There has been a WIP back design thats shown, wellll lets just say its reminiscent of a surprisingly successful minimalist deck.

[Jock1971]

Hi Tomas, I`ve Hundred`s of decks and about 80-90% have standard Courts As the main focus of my collection is `old` English cards. Although i don`t limit myself to these i also have a over a hundred odd new decks and around 50% of these have standard courts and pip`s as well. So i`ve no objection to the use of Standard court or pips or even one way backs for that matter.

I don't have 100's of decks, i actually have only two, so my point of view is different. If someone has 100's of deck with standard courts, then what stops him with this one? You did buy 100's before, so it's not really about the courts, otherwise u would never amass such collection. I get the preference of custom now, but the deck was constructed to bridge the wealth between the courts and pips cards, so it needed the starting point in standard courts, otherwise it would be an exercise about something else.

What do u do with your decks? Do u save them, display them or use all of them to play cards?

First of all your Question why i don`t buy your cards when i buy tons of others with standard courts .Firstly i really don`t class your cards as having standard pips at all.they are custom pips. secondly the price,An example i recently bought a Waddingtons bridge set dating 1971-1974,Two packs of cards standard faces but the backs were in my mind `Fantastic` ,tucks plain but mint, Two sets of score sheets and two pencils, all fitting in a real leather case. For the richly sum of £6 thats about $8-$9 .
And as i say i don`t class the pips as standard but i do class the courts as standard even though you "re-designed" them as to fit the larger pips. And when i buy `custom` cards i expect custom courts,because of the standard of custom cards nowadays is very high, yours being only custom pips don`t cut it for me personally.
Secondly you constructing your deck to bridge the wealth between pips and courts. well to me i don`t think the gap needs bridged as the courts are courts for a reason or else a pack of cards would be numbered 1-13. If i play poker with your deck and get a Flush is it a Royal flush because the pips are coloured in?

I am not reversing the order of importance, i think pips blend with the rest of the deck. It is the rejection of the court card design which creates this reversal, i don't see it at all, and i don't reject the old standard, hence the difference in opinion. You still win, because u represent a clear majority.

I think the word consistency may be misused here, because the bee-type back was rejected, although it was clearly consistent with the rest. The "fontana" backs were absolutely not consistent with the standard fronts - and yet they were very successful, and used a standard front, which never offended anyone. We'll keep trying some other backs...

First of all your statement about "you still win,because u represent a clear majority" .Many designers don`t even bother to come onto card forums to ask advise and the reason we`re all blunt and straight forward is because were all passionate about cards,so there is no winning and losing were in the majority because this is a playing card forum after all.There are major difference in opinions amongst the Card collectors themselves . you being new to designing playing cards should be applauded for actually taking time to seek out card enthusiasts and asking advice.
There are many decks which uses standard faces and plain backs which are successful ,fan-base is one reason another being "Big" Names in the industry etc. The Minimalist deck what was hugely successful that Volantangel refers to was "Trashed" to put it mildly by the card community but because it was designed by someone who used to work for apple everyone else jumped at the chance to get a "piece" from that designer.

That`s my Opinion, but thats all it is MY opinion -Jase-

[tomas]

yes, there is a similarity, but images were put in circles thousands of times before.
the name of the deck is deconstructed for a reason.

this is a bottle of white wine "deconstructed"

aaa.jpg (44.61 KiB) Viewed 1310 times

I don't create new courts not because I am not capable of doing so -- I spent 15 years making a living as an artist, so our concept of what "art" is probably different. I, like so many other people in the field of art, subscribe to an opinion about art critics which should never be put in writing.

this deck is skipping the part of "illustration" and goes to another level, which was never addressed before, and in the process creates something unique (in my view).
I don't claim it's a "higher" level; there are amazing decks on KS with the highest quality of illustrations and I am very happy for their success. I'm just going in a different direction.
I may have chosen a completely wrong venue for such exercise, but it is a "conceptual" deck, whatever that means, and should be enjoyed for the color flow from courts to pips cards, and not taken so literally.

[MagikFingerz]

I guess that's the problem right there. I think most of us here don't care about art concepts, we just want well-designed decks that would make a good addition to our collection. Personally, I can recognize the uniqueness of this, but it's just too abstract for me.

Had this been an art forum, I'm sure the response would have been very different.

[sinjin7]

I'm assuming these are samples of some of your work. Its a shame you won't put in the extra effort to make completely custom courts because I think you have the potential to make fantastic court cards. I'm afraid your focus of deconstruction is too narrow for most card collectors to consider your deck to be fully customized enough to be enthusiastic about.

Decks with standard court cards are very common, so its not unreasonable to expect many of them in our collections. I find it interesting that you asked, "If someone has 100's of deck with standard courts, then what stops him with this one?". So do you want to create deck of playing cards that is merely common like many others, or do you want to create something truly special and unique?