Tenebre Playing Cards by 4PM Designs - KS Funded!

[Cbkimble]

yeah, i was looking for about $15 a deck but with the jacket, completely worth the extra $3. They have a uniqueness. They went with 1000 decks instead of 900.

[OnTheGrind]

yeah, i was looking for about $15 a deck but with the jacket, completely worth the extra $3. They have a uniqueness. They went with 1000 decks instead of 900.

They're unique for now... I quote:

"ROSSO EDITION...

So wait...If this is called the Rosso Edition, does that mean there will be more? Well, hopefully, that's the plan. All new editions will remain limited to the one time printing by the LPCC.

SIGNATURE SERIES...

The Signature Series is planned to be a continued effort to bring new artwork and ideas to the market. Many of our Bicycle decks have taken inspiration from pop culture and vintage cards, but our Signature Series will focus on more personal designs. If the support is there from everyone in the playing card and kickstarter community, Tenebre will be the first of several lines of cards, exclusively manufactured by the LPCC."


Hopefully the other "Editions" and other decks in the "signature series" are innovative/unique, and not just color rehashes or whatever of this deck

[Cbkimble]

at least they aren't doing like the Ornate deck and do 4 of the same deck in different colors, both branded and unbranded and then added on two more decks as a stretch goal. that was ridiculous, 10 decks in one campaign.

this one has a very low funding goal so I see no reason they shouldn't get funded.

[Widdee]

But... I don't think these will likely grab me the way Zenith did.

By the balls?

Unless you're doing something crazy with the tuck box, there's no reason for EPCC decks costing more than the USPCC, unless the designer is trying to over-bloat their profit margin.

There certainly is no excuse for them to rape our wallets unless they are simply taking advantage of us, because Paul just did it for $20 per deck with an almost identical set of features and number of decks - from the same source.

By the balls is right, Mike! It's hard to compare Zenith to anything out there. Haven't received mine yet but if it's as good as billed it may just set the bar for single decks to come.

BTW, happy Cinco de Mayo to all!

[SBurk49]

I wasnt interested in this deck at all until I saw those grid scans... That Red color tho...

I'm a sucker for uniqueness.

HOWEVER, buying these would hurt my wallet AND my non-existent rep as a primarily Bicycle collector....

I ordered a deck of those ridiculous Exquisite Bold decks that everyone hated. That will be my first from EPCC and my first sideways tuck.

We shall see how it changes my attitude.

[MagikFingerz]

Not a fan of forced add-ons. Do like the deck though.

[sinjin7]

I'm sure if the pack jacket is executed correctly, it will be beautiful. However, I don't have a need for a tuck box for a tuck box for this deck, especially multiple ones if I order multiple decks. Plus, I still have plenty of pack jackets I bought for under $3 each with shipping included from CARC for a little extra protection for some of my user decks, so I feed its overkill to have these pack jackets for what will essentially be strictly a collector deck only and not a user deck. I think the inclusion of the pack jacket with every single deck is just an attempt to mask the fact that this deck is ridiculously over-priced. Easy pass for me. Its a shame, since I really liked the Grid 2.0 from these guys.

[cosmicsecret]

sinjin7 brings it to the point - heavily overpriced with a pack jacket that is forced on you.
Did we reached the point were we are willed to pay $8 more then a USPCC produced deck?

BIG PASS for me

[Sher]

When I saw the price of these, I actually thought it was a pretty good price, especially since it included a pack jacket, too. Maybe it's because I was comparing the $18 price with that of Zenith, which was $20. Zenith didn't even have a pack jacket included and I thought the $20 price point was fair enough. Maybe this was due to the Zenith tuck's absolutely gorgeous design. Heck, Paul could have charged $30 or more for that deck and I still would have bought it... And I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

Anyway, I'm just curious as to why this deck is getting dinged for the price, when another deck that was just recently released (from the same manufacturer) was priced in the same range and it's price was hardly an issue with anyone. I would understand if maybe this design has less features, but it seems like they're putting this out with foil, too. Does it come down to design? I would admit that I do like the Zenith more in terms of design, but then again I've always been a fan of Paul's designs and I figured that since people have different taste, the Tenebres deck probably appeals to others just as much as the Zenith deck appeals to me.

Also, I realize that the price of this deck can be considered expensive when comparing it to CARC's EPCC decks, such as the Exquisite or even the Exquisite Bold. However, I always expect a deck from an independent designer to cost much more than a deck from one of the large companies. Theory11's tuck boxes are gorgeous and usually made from special stock and full of metallic inks and foiling, yet they usually cost $6.95, whereas Rick Davidson's Origins deck, which has a comparable tuck box, costs twice as much and that seems totally understandable because he can't offset the costs of printing the deck like Theory11 probably can.

Did we reached the point were we are willed to pay $8 more then a USPCC produced deck?

You're saying a comparable USPCC deck would only cost approximately $10? If it was from Theory11, most likely. If it was from an independent designer, probably around $12-$15. When considering the limited runs, it's even more likely to go up even higher. The highest I've seen - and they were tuck swaps - were $25 on Kickstarter, and one that wasn't a tuck swap was $40.

It's really looking to me like the design is what affects how people react to the price. Although I admit I am not as taken by this design, I think the artwork was done well and I'm sure it'll find its audience. It'll get funded in a few hours.

[Norbie]

For some reason I get I feeling they did thought of it in the last minute, which I pretty sure it's not so. But my antenna is picking this up?

[Cbkimble]

FEATURES:
- Sideways Tuck Box design
- Matte Red Tuck Box
- Interior Tuck Box Foil
- Exterior Tuck Box Foil
- Specialty Diamond Finish
- Specialty Diamond Stock
- 54 Fully Custom Cards

I'm not saying these plus the jacket make the price 100% reasonable but I feel they're worth it.

[sinjin7]

I'm just curious as to why this deck is getting dinged for the price, when another deck that was just recently released (from the same manufacturer) was priced in the same range and it's price was hardly an issue with anyone.

I always expect a deck from an independent designer to cost much more than a deck from one of the large companies. Theory11's tuck boxes are gorgeous and usually made from special stock and full of metallic inks and foiling, yet they usually cost $6.95, whereas Rick Davidson's Origins deck, which has a comparable tuck box, costs twice as much and that seems totally understandable because he can't offset the costs of printing the deck like Theory11 probably can.

When it comes to pricing a custom deck, the most expensive element often is the tuck box. The Zenith has a very thick card stock along with all that holographic foiling, which drives up the cost. Plus, Paul has a great track record doing very innovative things with tuck box design. It could be that the Tenebre is priced fairly relative to its production cost, or its just a greedy cash grab. We don't know for sure yet because we don't have enough info on what are all the fancy bells and whistles on the Tenebre tuck box, if any. I don't like how we're forced to buy the pack jacket, though. The actual cost of the cards themselves between Zenith and Tenebre should be about the same.

The EPCC is an overseas manufacturer in Taiwan, and they are NOT more expensive than the USPCC, in fact, if you produce a print run of 5000 decks, they are significantly LESS expensive than the USPCC. The primary reason to go with the EPCC is because they're cheaper (despite claims to the contrary). Secondary reasons are that they are willing to do print runs of less than 5000 and their precision in printing (registration) is better than the USPCC.

T11 tuck boxes are gorgeous - and expensive. The only reason T11 can price their decks under $9 is because they have the means to pay for print runs of 10,000+ decks at a time, so they get a significant pricing break due to the economies of scale.

[wahl0108]

I also agree in that I think it's reasonable for the reasons sher and chris gave and also Pablo is covering domestic shipping. I don't know how much it cost to ship zenith internationally but I'm figuring five bucks to ship and a three dollar jacket, which makes it ten bucks which is fine for me because of all the foil and other features.

[sinjin7]

FEATURES:
- Sideways Tuck Box design
- Matte Red Tuck Box
- Interior Tuck Box Foil
- Exterior Tuck Box Foil
- Specialty Diamond Finish
- Specialty Diamond Stock
- 54 Fully Custom Cards

I'm not saying these plus the jacket make the price 100% reasonable but I feel they're worth it.

I've already spoken enough about the side tuck boxes and my dislike for them, plus that feature alone isn't a significant premium, if any. I suspect the terms "Specialty Diamond Finish" and "Specialty Diamond Stock" are complete fluff and meaningless in the context of pricing. They could've called it Atomic Finish with Nugget Stock and its all the same fluff. The question is, how much does all the foiling on the tucks drive up the cost of the deck, because those are legitimate premiums that increase production cost, along with the "limited' printing run. Again, I think the pack jacket is forced on us to mask the fact that this is over-priced. We already know the foiled pack jackets can be had with shipping included for under $3 a pop in quantity, so that tells me that what they are really charging for the deck is approximately $15 for an EPCC produced deck. That sounds pricey to me. The only justification is that the tuck box better be pretty kick-ass (thick premium stock, holographic foiling, die-cut, individually serial numbered, etc...) and I don't know if I see enough of that to justify the price yet. Maybe as more info comes out the price may indeed be fair, but as of now, I'm passing on this deck.

[Yashi]

I thought the court cards for this one would be unique. Well I'm pretty disappointed. Starred for now.

[Jock1971]

I really like these, so i pledged for two.

[MagikFingerz]

Good points, Sher. I was about to complain as well when I remembered that pretty much nobody complained about Paul's deck. And I don't think I can make an informed opinion until I know what the production costs of these decks are.

Pretty sure that the reason this one is being complained about is simply because people generally like Zenith and/or Paul more than Tenebre and/or 4PM. It's putting it bluntly, but that's probably the biggest reason. This being on kickstarter is another variable, since we're not used to KS decks costing this much.

[Mike Ratledge]

Maybe speaking out of turn here, but I'm almost certain that "Diamond" finish/paper with Legacy is the same as Expert's "Master Finish" - but I'm certainly speaking out my arse at this point, but I'll inquire.

[volantangel]

Well these dont impress me much at whatever price point they put out. But if im looking for a red deck of cards, well my requiem decks are gonna reach me soon.

And yea dont like the fact that they are forcing the pack jackets on everyone, but its a simple reason. The pack jackets probably have a min run as well, it was just a bad idea to do it for such a small run anyways.

[Bikefanatic]

I like these red cards better than the current KS Bicycle Mayhem deck because it's simple without the extra designs. What I'm concerned about in the future is that since it'll be more colors, I hope it's not just only a color change with the same scheme. For instance making the cards all blue and not changing anything else. It'll depend how it looks, wherever they take it.

[Cbkimble]

I figured it was a deal to get the decks cheaper.

[rousselle]

I like the design. If this were priced like other decks of similar ilk (say, in the $10 to $12 range), I'd likely pick up two or three.

In fact, I'm reminded of my high school days, when a friend of mine and I would rate movies on the basis of how much we thought it was worth paying to see. This was back when first runs were, oh, six or seven dollars, I think, and the cheap theaters (which were plentiful) were more like two or three bucks. So, if we rated a movie as a six dollar show, we rather liked it. A dollar? Yeah, not so much.

So. Jackson Robinson releases the Independence deck, and the "standard edition" is twelve bucks a pop. In fact, his Moriarty reprints -- with the already very well photographed embossed, foiled, designed inside-and-out tuck boxes, and his superior card design on a deck that has already been fully vetted -- were twelve bucks a pop. We know his standard edition Independence decks are going to be amazing. He's a proven commodity. We know those tucks are going to rock. So. If I'm willing to spend twelve bucks on a deck, I'm willing to take a chance that it might be as good as a Jackson Robinson "standard edition" deck. Chris Ovdiyenko's Oracle was $11 (well, unless you missed the early bird, and if you didn't add any on, you'd have to pay $15 for that first deck, but each add'l deck? $11.) In other words, same ball park.

Most of the decks I've been grabbing off KS have been solid, $10/deck entries. Truly, good designs, maybe not quite as elaborate tucks, but decent decks, usually printed by USPCC. I tend to pick up more than one at a time, so I tend to pay $10 per deck, plus or minus a buck or two. These are 2013 and early 2014 prices. If I am willing to spend $12 or so per deck, I'm figuring that there's a real chance I'm going to get something in the same experience level as a Jackson Robinson "standard edition", or a Chris Ovdiyenko. (And for those who are new here, Chris's and Jackson's decks set the high bar for deck and tuck design. Like, oh-em-gee.)

Did I shell out $20 per deck for some Zeniths by Paul Carpenter? Why yes, yes I did. I was willing to take the gamble that those decks were going to knock my socks off. Did I pay even more than that for some Jackson Robinson "Limited Editions?" You bet your bippy.

I'll also point out that if I missed the KS offering of a given deck, I understood that I would likely end up paying more than the KS price to purchase it, after-campaign. That's the reward for taking a chance on KS: you get the early-entry price.

So, here we have a fine, proven designer offering the Tenebre deck. 4PM has designed some other, solid efforts. At least, according to reputation, they have. I missed out on previous KS offerings, and when I did pledge (early) to back his Legacy decks, the campaign went AWOL. Twice. What I see here nonetheless is appealing to me. I'm not convinced that there are any game changers here the way there have been in JR and CO decks, but who knows? With the promise of the red foil on red paper tuck (cough, whispering imps, cough), with red foil on the inside of the tuck (Randy Butterfield, anyone?), and some other touches that evoke some of my favorite card designers, I see a lot of promise here to at least capitalize on the good stuff that we've seen, whether or not it further pushes the envelope.

Am I willing to take the gamble that these could be as good as a JR "standard edition," or at least land in the same ball park? Yes. Yes, I believe I am.

Am I willing to gamble that it's going to knock my socks off, and really knock this one out of the park? Do I believe that these are likely to be that much better than Jackson's Moriarty decks?

Further, am I willing to pay after-KS prices for a project that is, in fact, going through KS?

These are the questions I'm asking myself.

I like this deck. I'd really like to see how it comes out. But... am I willing to bet that it's that freakin' awesome? With a designer who has established himself as good, but not necessarily as Jackson Robinson / Chris Ovdiyenko good?

$18? When awesome lands at $12 these days on Kickstarter?

No. I'm open to persuasion, but I'm not seeing it right now.

[Cbkimble]

Not trying to devalue your points b/c you do have some good ones but $12 KS price is for a deck printed normally over 2500 not approx. 1000. Do I feel the price is a little sleep, slightly. Do I like having a jacket forced on the deck, not at all. Do I feel that the price of this limited deck plus a forced jacket is worth the price they're asking, yes.

[volantangel]

Well i guess if 1000-run decks are going to push the prices up that significantly, id rather everyone stick to the 2500 run and my $10 deck. At the end of the day, these go into my hands and i really dont care about how many there are in other peoples hands.

[sinjin7]

And again, this is an EPCC deck. Not as expensive to produce, not as good handling as USPCC.

[MagikFingerz]

And again, this is an EPCC deck. Not as expensive to produce, not as good handling as USPCC.

Pretty sure a 1000 run EPCC deck is more expensive per deck to produce than a 2500 run USPCC deck.

But again, I wish we had some hard numbers to go by. Judging by the silence of those here that might know, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a non-disclosure clause somewhere.

[Maddest Hammer]

As Paul and others have pointed out, EPCC/LPCC will allow a 1000 print run, whereas USPCC minimum is 2500. So if startup costs are about the same, then 1000 decks would cost less than 2500, unless EPCC et al charge more per deck than USPCC. Then there's shipping. I'm sure it costs a lot less to ship 2500 decks to Chicago, or Tennessee than it does to ship them from Taiwan to the port, then overland to wherever they are going.

Tom is right, though...awfully quiet from the people who DO know.

[Sher]

If this run is limited to approx 900 decks available during the campaign, I'm curious as to why they didn't place a limit on each tier. I suppose they don't expect to go over 900?

[MagikFingerz]

If this run is limited to approx 900 decks available during the campaign, I'm curious as to why they didn't place a limit on each tier. I suppose they don't expect to go over 900?

They replied to that in the comments saying that they're monitoring the pledge levels and will set limits if/when they get close to the max. Which makes sense, because you can't know in advance which pledge levels will be more/less popular.

[snsdmonkey]

3 decks for me. I like the design and will have to judge the card stock quality for myself as it will be my first EPCC deck.