davegk wrote:I was actually planning to post an update today on the Vända kickstarter page...
The Vända decks are on schedule to be delivered within the timeframe specified in the project (delivery by February, 2013). I've received notification from USPC that they have completed printing and boxing of both decks and will be shipping them out to me in the next week or so, after which I will be packaging and shipping out to all backers.
As for this whole issue regarding pricing, I've shown the Polaris project to many people and the only ones who even mentioned concern over the cost are the handful who have replied on this forum. The truth is that people are clearly willing to pay $15 for a single well-designed deck of playing cards - Tyler has proven this with his Pedale project. I find it a bit humorous that despite this fact, many people here continue to rant about how nobody would pay that much for cards. I realize that some designers are charging less and honestly I think they are undervaluing their work.
You may notice that there are currently four playing card projects on kickstarter that are struggling to even meet funding goals. These decks are priced between $8-10 and still they are not getting backed - clearly the issue is not the price point. If you create something original that people want and can't get anywhere else, they will pay whatever the cost is (within reason).
Graphic designers, like any other professionals, cannot afford to work for free. I initially started designing the Vända deck because I thought it was a cool idea and a fun project to work on and I really enjoy the challenge of designing card decks, but when I brought it to kickstarter, it was with the intention of making money. This isn't just a hobby for me, it's my career. Currently, my only source of income is my freelance graphic design work and the majority of my time lately has been spent working on Vända and Polaris. So, yes, I do expect to be able to make enough money from the sales of the card decks to cover my rent and other living expenses and I think that's entirely reasonable. If I didn't truly believe in the potential success of the Polaris project, I wouldn't have invested as much time as I have.
-David
I don't think anyone has a problem with a designer making money, I think everyone just gets tired of all the BS about the costs associated with making a deck. As 4:PM has said, everyone here knows roughly how much USPCC charges to produce a custom deck, so it is better to take the approach you have with your above post, rather than your first one.
When someone states it has taken them months and months to complete the design work, it comes across as a bit disingenuous. Why I agree a designer may work on a deck over many months, they are not spending 8 hours a day, five days a week, for months and months. They are doing it a little at a time. So the impression they are giving creates a lot of skepticism among their potential customers. It is much better to use your second explanation as oppose to your first, which can be easily refuted.
As far as the pricing is concerned, while it is true the amazing success the pedale deck has had shows it is possible that a deck may sell at that price point, it has equally been shown that people are not willing to pay that price all the time. The Aurum deck is a perfect example. Paul has priced that deck at a high price point and sales have been slow. How do I know? Because he is on the forum every chance he gets trying to promote it and sell it. Will they eventually sell? Sure, but not quickly. You have to ask yourself; "Do you want fast nickels or slow dollars"? Paul is not the only one who's second decks have not done as well as the first. The verve and Ogma have not done well and there is still ample supply left of both.
To me the major sticking point is that you are asking for more money when you still have not delivered your first deck yet, especially since you just admitted you do not have a steady job and are just working freelance right now. How does anyone know what you say is true and that you don't need the money from the second deck to have the first one produced? You would have had a lot more credibility if you delivered the first deck and didn't ask for funding on the second deck, until the first one was already in your hands and starting to be shipped out.
Just food for thought.
Thanks!
First of all, i don't think most people are actually aware of how much it ends up costing to produce each deck once you include all the factors involved. You can't just take the per deck printing price from USPC as the cost to produce it.
As for time spent on design, I estimate I spent roughly 300 actual hours of work on the Vända deck designs. Every element was created from scratch and fine-tuned many many times. I didn't just slap some new color scheme on a design that was already created by someone else. The Polaris deck was even more time-consuming of a process. Yes, I have been working about 40 hours a week designing the decks and related accessories. I've literally been working 12+ hours a day, six to seven days a week since june to accommodate the playing cards as well as other projects - it's not just a few minutes or even a few hours each day - anyone with an eye for design will appreciate the extensive details involved.
Regarding the timeline, I was hoping to have the Vända decks delivered *ahead* of schedule but I've been waiting for USPC to finish the printing process. I've actually delayed the launch of Polaris specifically because of the concern you mentioned - that the projects would be overlapping between fulfillment of Vända and the KS campaign of Polaris, but I can't sit around and wait any longer. I have more projects to get to and I must keep moving forward in order to meet my own timeline goals.
I understand that some of you have concern over the cost of backing for just a single deck of Polaris cards and if you feel it's unreasonable then don't back the project, but I don't understand why there's so much negativity and attempted persuasion to convince other people to follow suit.
-David
Personally, I don't think anyone is trying to persuade anyone from doing anything. We are all expressing our opinions, just like you have as to why you think your deck is worth so much. I don't think anyone has been derogatory in any of their comments, and therefore, I think appropriate.
On a personal note, as usual, it comes down to the zillion hours of design work and at a zillion dollars an hour. That is where everyone runs when they can not justify their pricing because it is unverifiable. You wouldn't put a $200,000 swimming pool in a house that only cost $100,000 would you? Well I think the same applies here. Anyway, as I have said many, many times, if you like the deck buy it, Everyone has to do what they think is best for them. For me, I wouldn't give my money to anyone who has not delivered their first deck yet because we have all seen the problems on Kickstarter with designers who have no money and use the Kickstarter money to fund their personal lives.
Neither would (or should) you ask someone to take a significant pay cut just because they like what they're doing. It's really hard for artists and designers to get fair pay for their work on such projects because there's often a perception-- one that's voiced uncomfortably loudly in this thread and forum in general-- that artwork or design work have somehow less value than other things. The myth of 'do it for the exposure' is a particularly damaging fallacy that doesn't help anyone get more work or put food on anyone's table.
You wouldn't willfully cut your hourly wage in half in pretty much any other line of work. Design's no different.
neongrey wrote:Neither would (or should) you ask someone to take a significant pay cut just because they like what they're doing. It's really hard for artists and designers to get fair pay for their work on such projects because there's often a perception-- one that's voiced uncomfortably loudly in this thread and forum in general-- that artwork or design work have somehow less value than other things. The myth of 'do it for the exposure' is a particularly damaging fallacy that doesn't help anyone get more work or put food on anyone's table.
You wouldn't willfully cut your hourly wage in half in pretty much any other line of work. Design's no different.
Thank you - this is an excellent point. I would just add that normally for freelance design work I charge $75/hour so time spent on these card deck projects means that I'm working at a much lower hourly rate than I would be if I was working on projects for other clients.
neongrey wrote:Neither would (or should) you ask someone to take a significant pay cut just because they like what they're doing. It's really hard for artists and designers to get fair pay for their work on such projects because there's often a perception-- one that's voiced uncomfortably loudly in this thread and forum in general-- that artwork or design work have somehow less value than other things. The myth of 'do it for the exposure' is a particularly damaging fallacy that doesn't help anyone get more work or put food on anyone's table.
You wouldn't willfully cut your hourly wage in half in pretty much any other line of work. Design's no different.
I couldn't agree more. But if you are a freeelance artist and hire yourself out for way less then you are calculating your time is worth, then something is wrong. Go to freelance.com or any other site and see what they get per hour. Also if you were designing a deck for a client, would they pay that much for your work? Probably not. If you could hire Sam Hayles for around $5,000 for a completely customized deck, then that should be a real good indication of what the price should be. It will vary slightly, but a range of $3,000 - $5,000 is fair. Anything more than that is probably expecting too much for the product to return to you.
Sorry, the wooden card is included in all pledges - think of it as a collectible bonus item
People seem to be looking at this as not an added bonus, but as an item that they really don't want, but are paying EXTRA money for.
I suppose but it's also conditioned into a lot of creatives to take less pay because of that perception that the work is worth less, so they'll put themselves out there for less and less. It's really a sadly self-perpetuating problem.
I dunno, because of this I'm not so quick to be down on people who do charge within what it's shown the market will bear, even if it's at the higher end of that range. If that's what someone needs to be what they consider fairly compensated for their time, I personally wouldn't ascribe it to greed, which is a word I've seen a few people toss around. Certainly not to shady business practices. On the consumer level for me, there's not really much difference between ten and fifteen dollars for what is essentially a luxury product, especially when I'm not buying in a retail setting, such as a Kickstarter.
I guess what it comes down to for me is that the sheer venom of a lot of the backlash makes me pretty uncomfortable. It's a higher price than a lot of people care for, but I'm not really sure people should be casting these sorts of aspersions on the artist/designer solely on that basis. Getting cold feet based on the proposed cost is one thing-- that's fine, of course. But there's no need for a lot of the mud that's been flying about this.
neongrey wrote:I suppose but it's also conditioned into a lot of creatives to take less pay because of that perception that the work is worth less, so they'll put themselves out there for less and less. It's really a sadly self-perpetuating problem.
I dunno, because of this I'm not so quick to be down on people who do charge within what it's shown the market will bear, even if it's at the higher end of that range. If that's what someone needs to be what they consider fairly compensated for their time, I personally wouldn't ascribe it to greed, which is a word I've seen a few people toss around. Certainly not to shady business practices. On the consumer level for me, there's not really much difference between ten and fifteen dollars for what is essentially a luxury product, especially when I'm not buying in a retail setting, such as a Kickstarter.
I guess what it comes down to for me is that the sheer venom of a lot of the backlash makes me pretty uncomfortable. It's a higher price than a lot of people care for, but I'm not really sure people should be casting these sorts of aspersions on the artist/designer solely on that basis. Getting cold feet based on the proposed cost is one thing-- that's fine, of course. But there's no need for a lot of the mud that's been flying about this.
I can't speak for anyone else in the forum, only myself. I have no problem with his pricing of the deck. It is his time and effort and he can charge whatever he wants. For me, the issue is he basically said he is charging this much because the pedale deck was able to get that much. If he just left it there, then that would be fine. But then we start getting into the realm of trying to justify it by making statements that are either inaccurate or saying those same alleged costs would paid by someone else if they were hiring a designer to do the deck design for them. I don't think they would because I don't think the product can support that kind of return. Keep in mind, this isn't going to be a running line item, this is going to be a once and done deal, which means the design costs have to be absorbed in one print run and not over multiple print runs. I think everyone is just expressing their opinions and not really slinging mud. Personally, I have no ill feelings toward David as I do not know him. I wish him well with his project, but it is a pass for me for the many reasons I stated in my posts in this thread.
neongrey wrote:Neither would (or should) you ask someone to take a significant pay cut just because they like what they're doing. It's really hard for artists and designers to get fair pay for their work on such projects because there's often a perception-- one that's voiced uncomfortably loudly in this thread and forum in general-- that artwork or design work have somehow less value than other things. The myth of 'do it for the exposure' is a particularly damaging fallacy that doesn't help anyone get more work or put food on anyone's table.
You wouldn't willfully cut your hourly wage in half in pretty much any other line of work. Design's no different.
Thank you - this is an excellent point. I would just add that normally for freelance design work I charge $75/hour so time spent on these card deck projects means that I'm working at a much lower hourly rate than I would be if I was working on projects for other clients.
-David
If you're in this field to make money...you should probably put your graphic design use elsewhere. At the end of the day these are playing cards, common things that in the eyes of an average person don't cost THAT MUCH. I totally agree with the idea that an artist should put whatever monetary value they feel is right for their product however you must look at the rest of the market when pricing something like this at the same time. An artist could think their art is worth millions because of how much time and effort put into it, but if nobody will buy it than it's pretty futile. Also I think you're using kickstarter mainly to make a profit, which isn't really the point of kickstarter. In my opinion you should be selling these cards on your website for whatever price you feel is right.
I like the backs on these but not so much the fronts. I don't see a problem with the cost, its very high obviously and it forces an addition for no reason, but everyone can price as they see fit. Also people will be, probably, more willing to pay it from someone who already had a successful deck. Sort of a bit of piece of mind. My thinking at least. And as we all know "that other deck" that did so well, did so partly because of their connections within a completely separate industry, blogs, websites, even video's. Very good head on that guys shoulders
EDIT:
Ok scratch that sorry. I didn't see that the first deck hasn't even gone out yet. So that little bit is wrong on my part. As the days go by maybe the creator will adjust their levels and offer deals like all the others have done in the past when people pointed out issues like this?
That is one thing I love about being in and running a Kickstarter. Getting to talk to everyone and see how they feel and trying to help them. The actual goal is to get the deck to people. And with Kickstarter you have a lot more flexibility. Hope everything gets figured out in an acceptable way. I could never have succeeded without UC peeps and their help.
Eyeball wrote:If you're in this field to make money...you should probably put your graphic design use elsewhere. At the end of the day these are playing cards, common things that in the eyes of an average person don't cost THAT MUCH.
This is spot on (in my opinion). Most people I speak to think that spending more than $5 on a deck is ridiculous. (Outside the relatively small magic, flourishing and collecting groups custom decks are barely a fascinating oddity). As Pedale showed, a deck of particularly appealing design - and significant marketing - can do well despite the higher cost.
Unfortunately, whilst I do like the Polaris design - and I'm sure significant work has been put into it - the design at first glance doesn't appear that much more detailed, ornate or artistically significant than many other decks out there. (lets just repeat this - I really do like this design...). $30 for two decks (I'm international) is why I will not be pledging on this one.
Polaris was chosen as kickstarter's project of the day!
Thus I've decided to announce today that there will be a third Polaris deck - Eclipse Edition. It will be printed with 5 metallic ink colors and each box will be hand-numbered.
I've added 2 new reward levels - both are poker packages that include a set of poker chips, decks, and a dealer button.
Also, the first stretch goal is set for 20k and will be the addition of a 12-deck wooden box.
Check out the update here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gol ... sts/383630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We hit the first stretch goal of $20K and the 12-deck wooden brick boxes are now available!
Limited Edition - only available on kickstarter.
Laser-engraved serial number and signature.
$60 USA / $70 international
Online magic playing cards shop : http://www.playingcardz.net5% off your entire order using the coupon code UNITED
Shipping worldwide, Free to the european union and Switzerland if your order is > $200
And to the rest of the world if your order is > ~$400!!!
You're not alone. I haven't received mine either. And that is one of the reasons I haven't backed the other two decks he's come out with since Polaris ended.
Well he says mine should be in the mail tomorrow and at least he responds, didn't get any response from Russell regarding the Quicksilvers which I'm also still waiting for. To be fair to Dave I did get these after Kickstarter so that is probably why I'm still waiting.
vmagic wrote:Well he says mine should be in the mail tomorrow and at least he responds, didn't get any response from Russell regarding the Quicksilvers which I'm also still waiting for. To be fair to Dave I did get these after Kickstarter so that is probably why I'm still waiting.
I had a hard time getting a response from Russell as well. I sent him a couple of emails because I was getting complaints from people who were still waiting for their decks. It took him quite a while to respond. I was not happy about that. On July 15th, I removed Russell as a mod here at UC and I informed him of my actions. He said he understood and he was working on getting the packages out. At the end of the day, there really is no excuse as to why this has taken so long.
Hey all, I just posted about this in the Bacon thread as well...
I have addressed the Polaris delays in a kickstarter update over a week ago. If you are wondering about your specific order, please send me an email at ace@vandacards.com and I can look into it and let you know when I expect to get it shipped. Right now I'm spending most of my time at Techshop trying to finish all the wooden laser cut items.
Just got my Polaris decks and I have to say, slow shipping aside, these are some of the more unique decks in my collection. There just isn't enough decks with colorful full-bleed back design being made. Fans (full, half deck one-handed and giant) look awesome, and I also really like the wooden card and a signed card as extras. Even though I noticed a few small things I should have noticed and addressed before they were printed (like Jacks and Kings being almost identical), these are Vända's best work so far. The Bacon deck was a step down in my opinion, and I hope they'll be going back to more innovative designs in the future.
