Is it time to stop selling to the EU? (GPSR regulation)

[montenzi]

Why? Really? It is much easier to stop selling to the EU.

https://www.compliancegate.com/general- ... egulation/

https://go.amazonsellerservices.com/gpsr20241-en

To comply with the regulation, you’ll be required to do the following by that date:

• Ensure all the products you sell in the EU and Northern Ireland meet existing labelling and traceability requirements.
• Have an EU Responsible Person for those products.
• Label the products with the contact information of the Responsible Person, the manufacturer, and, if applicable, the importer.
• Label products with the type, batch, or serial number.
• Label products with safety information and warnings, where applicable, in the language of the country of sale.

It won’t be practical for small producers.


GPSR: What It Is and What You Need to Do
https://simplyvat.com/gpsr-what-it-is-a ... eed-to-do/

What you need to do to be compliant with GPSR
Generally speaking, you need to ensure the product you’re selling is safe. GPSR requires you to appoint a ‘Responsible Economic Operator’ (REO), whose job is to ensure that’s the case. The REO is responsible for ensuring your product complies with the law and that the relevant documentation is correct. You cannot sell your product in the EU without one. *** my comments:

[NIAVLYSYUG]

Here are the questions I asked CHATGPT about the GPSR directive...

Question 1: Will rewards offered to European backers (EX: residing in France) during a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign be affected by the GPSR directive (coming into force on December 13, 2024) when the products are shipped to France?

Question 2: Since these are rewards and this is not a sale made on European territory, how do we know if the GPSR directive will still be mandatory?

ANSWERS GIVEN BY CHATGPT...

Question 1: Will rewards offered to European backers (residing in France) during a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign be affected by the GPSR directive (coming into force on December 13, 2024) when the products are shipped to France?

The Goods Package and Services Regulation (GPSR), which comes into force on 13 December 2024, aims to regulate the sale of goods and services within the European Union, in particular electronic transactions. If products are sent to France as part of rewards offered by a crowdfunding campaign, the GPSR may well apply, even if these products are not directly sold as traditional purchases.

Why this may apply:
Crowdfunding context: Crowdfunding campaigns such as Kickstarter often involve financial exchanges for products or services that will be delivered at a later date. Even if these transactions are not traditional sales, they are sometimes considered pre-sales in a legal context.

Example "shipping to France": If products are sent to France to backers residing there, the GPSR may apply to these shipments, as it concerns products sold or sent within the European Union. This includes rules on consumer protection, including returns, refunds and warranty.

Distance selling regulations: The GPSR Directive aims to harmonise the rules on distance selling (including crowdfunding campaigns), so even if contributors do not buy directly in a traditional commercial setting, the transaction is still considered a form of purchase.

Conclusion for Question 1:
Yes, rewards sent to France could be subject to the GPSR Directive if they are considered a form of transaction involving goods or services intended for European consumers. The key element is the shipment of the products to France, which implies the application of European regulations, regardless of the exact nature of the crowdfunding campaign.

Question 2: Since these are rewards and it is not a sale made on European territory, how do we know if the GPSR Directive will still be mandatory?
Even if rewards in a crowdfunding campaign are not directly considered “sales” in the traditional sense, the GPSR Directive could still apply for several reasons:

Nature of transactions: Rewards in crowdfunding are often prepaid and delivered at a later date, which can be legally considered a pre-order of a product. This corresponds to a form of sale or commercial exchange, even if the transaction does not take place on European territory.

Geographic criteria and consumers: If the crowdfunding campaign targets European consumers, or if the products are shipped to Europe, the GPSR Directive generally applies. The aim is to ensure that consumers benefit from the same protections, regardless of whether the transaction takes place on a non-EU platform.

Provisions of the GPSR Directive: The Directive includes rules for non-EU sellers (e.g. those using Kickstarter) who sell or deliver goods in the EU. This means that a crowdfunding project based outside the EU, but shipping products to France, will still be subject to the GPSR Directive obligations.

Conclusion for Question 2:
The GPSR Directive could be mandatory, even in the case of rewards, as it targets remote transactions involving European consumers, including crowdfunding campaigns. If the products are shipped to French consumers, the European regulation will probably apply, even if the sale or transaction did not take place directly in Europe.

NOTE: I hope I have contributed to better understand the impact of the GPSR Directive on card games that have had crowdfunding such as Kickstarter or other... (Multinationals and large companies will not be bothered, only small companies will be affected!)

NIAVLYSYUG

[bdawg923]

No offense but I stopped reading as soon as you said "I asked ChatGPT" there is no way I would trust crappy generative AI to give an accurate answer on something like this.

[NIAVLYSYUG]

No offense but I stopped reading as soon as you said "I asked ChatGPT" there is no way I would trust crappy generative AI to give an accurate answer on something like this.

That's ok, i'm not offended...

Information can come from several sources... new regulations are not always clear and transparent... legal exemptions may exist or omissions.

I found it interesting to read what Chatgpt understood about this regulation, I do not present it as a reliable source, but if you read his analysis, it is nevertheless interesting and raises complementary angles of view.

It is necessary to understand the limits of artificial intelligence but also its qualities, that is to say to offer a summary and a conclusion to the questions asked... it is up to us to challenge his analysis like any discussion we could have between us!

Best regards,
NIAVLYSYUG

[bdawg923]

No offense but I stopped reading as soon as you said "I asked ChatGPT" there is no way I would trust crappy generative AI to give an accurate answer on something like this.

what Chatgpt understood

ChatGPT doesn't "understand" anything. It's just a "what word is mathematically most likely to come next" generator. That's the whole issue with it. It will authoritatively tell you like it "knows" but it has no understanding of the meaning of anything it outputs.

[Strag]

ChatGPT and other similar sevices have proven to be incredibly wrong with information, so quoting it in a forum is rather useless.

[NIAVLYSYUG]

ChatGPT and other similar sevices have proven to be incredibly wrong with information, so quoting it in a forum is rather useless.

If the comment I shared doesn't seem interesting to you... it's okay... we are in a country where people can have a free opinion and can express it without denigrating remarks (like useless), right? Artificial intelligence is just one tool among many and rejecting it in its entirety is a mistake but understandable. It's just your opinion... If it's useless for you it's not for me. I only have one question: What is your really useful contribution to this issue by the way?

[GandalfPC]

A quick look around and I found some people on Etsy talking about GPSR being quite the cataclysm - other looks around find similar - this video has a guy going into some gory details:

https://www.tiktok.com/@collectableciti ... 0210599200

[Honeybee]

ChatGPT and other similar sevices have proven to be incredibly wrong with information, so quoting it in a forum is rather useless.

If the comment I shared doesn't seem interesting to you... it's okay... we are in a country where people can have a free opinion and can express it without denigrating remarks (like useless), right? Artificial intelligence is just one tool among many and rejecting it in its entirety is a mistake but understandable. It's just your opinion... If it's useless for you it's not for me. I only have one question: What is your really useful contribution to this issue by the way?

You cannot write that a post is useless Strag but I am sure that Niavlys would have accepted

This member could have just as easily written nothing and it would have certainly been less futile.

Who said this?

[Strag]

we are in a country where people can have a free opinion and can express it without denigrating remarks (like useless), right? Artificial intelligence is just one tool among many and rejecting it in its entirety is a mistake but understandable. It's just your opinion... If it's useless for you it's not for me. I only have one question: What is your really useful contribution to this issue by the way?

First, I'm almost 100% certain we don't live in the same country. Second, what if my really useful contribution to the conversation is that using AI as a fact source is useless UNTIL AND UNLESS you have the actual source material to hand?

Finally, we seem to have a different definition of the word denigrating; "to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame: to denigrate someone's character." You think me saying AI as a source is useless is somehow denigrating? Sure.

I suppose the post had a use, it changed the discussion from one around EU regululations to one about AI accuracy. So maybe not useless.

I also never said that AI should be rejected in its entirety, that's your strawman. I use AI in work daily. Just would never ever use it as a source of truth for anything, it's far from infallible and frequently repeats factually incorrect information.

[BaconWise]

I will admit I haven't looked too deeply into this issue - just a surface skimming. From what I understand, this would mean farewell to small creators, no? Unless this designated Responsible Person could be the same as a fulfillment partner in the EU (ex. Jocu). Would tuckboxes need to have special labeling now for EU sales? Maybe Montenzi can do a test run, like a single deck sale to France or Italy and ship it to see how it's received and what issues arise. This is fascinating and seemingly terrible.

[montenzi]

I will admit I haven't looked too deeply into this issue - just a surface skimming. From what I understand, this would mean farewell to small creators, no? Unless this designated Responsible Person could be the same as a fulfillment partner in the EU (ex. Jocu). Would tuckboxes need to have special labeling now for EU sales? Maybe Montenzi can do a test run, like a single deck sale to France or Italy and ship it to see how it's received and what issues arise. This is fascinating and seemingly terrible.

I sent 50 parcels to the EU yesterday. Let’s see how it goes. My main concern is the EU representative and labeling requirements (one language per country, 27 different labels?).

1. It will cost money to assign such a person.
2. I don't really have time and energy for this

In theory, the product existed before December 13th, so I might not need this. However, I have no idea how customs will handle it. Most likely, we’ll need to include this information on the site (on the product page), but no one really knows how it will work in practice.

[BaconWise]

I will admit I haven't looked too deeply into this issue - just a surface skimming. From what I understand, this would mean farewell to small creators, no? Unless this designated Responsible Person could be the same as a fulfillment partner in the EU (ex. Jocu). Would tuckboxes need to have special labeling now for EU sales? Maybe Montenzi can do a test run, like a single deck sale to France or Italy and ship it to see how it's received and what issues arise. This is fascinating and seemingly terrible.

I sent 50 parcels to the EU yesterday. Let’s see how it goes. My main concern is the EU representative and labeling requirements (one language per country, 27 different labels?).

1. It will cost money to assign such a person.
2. I don't really have time and energy for this

In theory, the product existed before December 13th, so I might not need this. However, I have no idea how customs will handle it. Most likely, we’ll need to include this information on the site (on the product page), but no one really knows how it will work in practice.

All I can do is wish you the best of luck with this test run. Hopefully, it proves to be less drastic than expected and you can keep doing great things. Keep us posted, if you don't mind

[RandyButterfield]

Yep, I’m definitely curious as to how it goes with your packages, Montenzi. I read through most of those rules, but stopped once I realized I would never jump through all those hoops for EU orders. I guess if they’re serious about this, I’ll have to refund any EU online orders and just not allow EU orders on Kickstarter projects (if that’s even an option). Very odd decision by EU.

Thanks, Randy

[MagikFingerz]

Don't worry, Montenzi. I can be your EU Responsible Person, I'm very responsible. You can pay me in decks

[montenzi]

We’ve had one parcel delivered in France (6 days transit time from China). Most EU parcels are now at their destination airports—let’s see how things progress.

Off-topic: I was impressed by another fact - 11 out of 15 deliveries were to the US, with transit times of just 5–6 days, all handled by non-USPS last-mile providers.

[montenzi]

No issues with delivery or customs for EU parcels so far. Most have been delivered (80%) , and nearly all have cleared customs by now. I only sent parcels to Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Finland, Latvia, and the Czech Republic. I’m still shipping to the EU on a daily basis.

My plan: do nothing for now. I'll continue selling to the EU until it stops working—hopefully, not during Kickstarter fulfillment.

BTW, I don't think customs opens all parcels—maybe not even any, except in very rare cases. How would they verify whether a product meets the new GPSR requirements? I’ll keep monitoring this as I want to see real examples of this law in action.

[MagikFingerz]

BTW, I don't think customs opens all parcels

They don't, but how many depends on the country, I think. Generally, it's probably: Richer countries -> customs have more resources -> customs are able to open/check more packages, and the inverse for poorer countries.

[friscards]

Thanks for bringing this topic up, I have just finished the fulfillment for the secret of the sea project and some parcels were for EU customers, so far I have not heard anyone complaining about his package stopped at customs or having to do anything about it. I also produced my decks before december last year so maybe I am exempt in theory, but the packs were shipped this january, because of delays at the GW. I hope as other suggested, that they won't open the parcels too often or that there may be some sort of easy solution like having a page on the official website with all the information required by the law. Let's cross finger this won't affect kickstarter campaigns as we rely on customers from all over the world, including the EU to produce playing cards

[crhage]

This would apply to any card producer who sells in the EU or imports into the EU. “Any goods made available in the EU.” So wouldn’t this apply to Lorenzo, Lotrek, Jocu, etc, etc as well as all of us who import?

I’ll keep reading but this seems overburdensome.

[A. Haines]

I did a lot of reading around this when it first "hit". I also reached out to a veteran of the industry for some advice re: what their approach would be, as it was hard to make sense out of it all (as is often the way with bureaucratic nonsense).

In the end I signed up to a service that offers the approval and assigned representative criteria to conform with the regs and sell/fulfil to the EU (hopefully) without issue, as this seemed like the easiest and best option, and was within the realms of affordability, despite being an unwanted expense.

The take-away I got from my research is as follows (much of the specifics of which have since slipped my mind) *take it or leave it, I am not an authority* (!):

- So long as you can show that you are taking steps to comply, at this early stage, is OK
- There is no issues with Customs (yet!) - they will not be stopping or spot-checking packages for GPSR compliance etc. as this is not a Customs matter, however...
- The issue would arise, if for example, an EU customer purchasing from outside the EU raised a safety grievance through a recognised legal channel with an item they had purchased. Then, the vendor, were they not compliant, would be open to a whole stream of GPSR litigation, alongside any other legal processes they may be presented with as a result of their alleged safety failing
- The regs are far more pertinent to electrical items, liquids, batteries... potentially hazardous things of this nature. Items such as playing cards are very low down the list of what the regs were implemented to oversee and don't require any extra safety documentation to be compliant as they are far less likely to go wrong in a hazardous way

I think Montenzi's plan to just crack on regardless is mostly golden, certainly for the time being. I just wanted to cover my a$$ and not have the nagging worry in the back of my mind that something (other than all the normal things) could go horribly wrong. Vendors prepared to take that risk, and I am sure there will be many, will probably be OK for the time being especially if they are selling low-risk items (again, I am not an authority and could be wrong!)

I hope that helps some of you with your understanding. I am far from an expert and might not be completely correct with my take on the subject. The information was also evolving at a fair pace due to the regs not being around for long, but I think I just about got the nuts n bolts of it, as it was a month or two ago. Since I signed up to be compliant I stopped paying attention and forgot about it (which is actually what I paid for)

Cheers!

[hsbc]

What service, and how much is it?

[A. Haines]

Anyone interested can DM me