Ronin by kings wild project

[Evilgamer]

For those who are tired of Jackson's signature style.



Well..this isnt his normal style




$12 for the base decks $30 gilded with a $115 set of all the gilded, $160 in a bamboo box

[kevork]

He did a good job of making that bamboo box set appealing.

[Honeybee]

I thought it would be a certainty for me but it is only a maybe, now that we have more details.
I get the pips being in keeping with the theme but I don't really like them, not sure about it being a non-revoke deck and I am not a fan of the Aces as the pip gets lost.
I don't collect boxes so I will probably only get the one back that I prefer over the other three

[Adamthinks]

I'm not quite sure what I think of this one. I'll probably back at least do one out of curiosity and to support him doing something new. I'm not loving it right away though and my first impression is that I don't like it. But I go back and forth as I look at it. Something about it feels kind of off though. Like it's pretending to be something it's not.

[TorresOVER]

It's cool and I am always a fan of Japanese themed & creator that willing to try something new.
I may back it when I have more info

[Harvonsgard]

I'm all over feudal japan stuff but the theme suffers the same problems like antic egypt or pirate themed stuff, loads of souvenir/bad merchandise level things and only few that stands out. This offering unfortunately falls into the first category for me. Four unique back designs... *Slow claps* The four deck set is a slap in the face for all customers.

[kevork]

[wingedpotato]

I agree with most here that something is "off" about this design, but I can't peg what it is. The illustrations look excellent but somehow all the disparate design elements don't quite come together. I have yet to find a Japan-themed deck that feels like Japan to me.

[steampunk52]

I like this theme a lot. Aside from my 'too many colorways' fatigue, if I had one complaint, its the colors almost seen a bit to vibrant to me. I think more of an 'antique' feel would have been good for this series, personally.

[Honeybee]

I agree sp52, especially the gilded diamond edn - its color scheme would suit a disco deck

[GandalfTheWhite]

For me personally the off part is the artwork. It looks cartoon-ish. Takes me back to the original artwork JR created for LOTR and changed it to the latest KS decks (which look cartoon-ish).

I have yet to find a Japan-themed deck that feels like Japan to me.

One of my favorite is the Bicycle Legendary Ninja playing cards (by Yasuyuki Honne).

[Jykwei]

I am Chinese and I understand sometimes the Japanese uses the same Chinese character but means something else, so I did my 10-minute google research and bring up my suspicions to your attention. The tuck box is surprisingly lazy as I am 99% certain Jackson didn’t write them (it took years to master - and whoever wrote it was not given the credit). If putting kanji on tuck box becomes the new art style for tuck boxes then congrats, there are thousands of characters so they will never run out. But the main problem I have is do they mean what they are supposed to mean? The one for club - I am pretty sure they mean the club as a weapon, not the clover leaf. The words used for diamond actually mean the shape of rhombus - do Japanese actually use those characters to describe the suits of playing cards?

The theme is also very questionable. Ronin - web search consistently say they were samurai’s without their lords and were practically in exile. To be a ronin was not an honorable thing - so what’s the talk about reverencing the code of honor in the campaign? Why not just call this the Samurai deck instead of the Ronin? Why would Ronins be in clans? How much research was done?

The back design does not look Japanese to me. Google it. Most Japanese patterns go with very few different colors - they may have several levels of one or two colors, but they don’t do multi-color like middle-eastern pattern.

I have no objection to the court cards, etc, they appear generic and they surely look Japanese.

I am willing to return here and issue apologies if I was wrong and the project went through adequate amount of research and was based on accurate Japanese culture. I want to raise awareness as I don’t think it is fair for some of you who do not have experience in Oriental art being sold a “Japanese-themed” deck when it was not sufficiently authentic. Perhaps a card collector with a Japanese background can comment. Thank you.

[Adamthinks]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but didn't he design this deck during a week or so of "Dawn Early Light" YouTube Live sessions? Perhaps that explains why this feels like it's not a final draft. I am currently backing for a single standard deck and will likely keep it that way. I continue to be a bit confused though by his output this year given his stated intentions of canceling the subscription decks so he could spend a lot of time fully fleshing out deck ideas and perfecting them. I wonder what's gotten in the way of that because outside of the Return of the King deck, he hasn't done that. And this is now two Kickstarter decks in a row that were designed in a bit over a week.

[zlexander]

My favourite Japanese themed decks will be Hana by Steve Minty and Kami by Edia Studios

[rousselle]

... I want to raise awareness as I don’t think it is fair for some of you who do not have experience in Oriental art being sold a “Japanese-themed” deck when it was not sufficiently authentic. Perhaps a card collector with a Japanese background can comment. Thank you.

Thank YOU for this excellent write-up.

A number of years ago, Kardify produced the Aquila deck, but they misused a Russian font to spell the name of the deck. Since I studied Russian language for eight years and even took classes in Moscow and Leningrad (now St. Petersburg), I couldn't NOT read the letters as Russian, which meant that every time I saw the deck, my brain read: "DQISHCHD."

It was too bad, because I and many others at the time considered the design to be otherwise top notch. And both the designer (I forget his name at the moment, I'm sorry) and the producer went on to design and produce other, most excellent projects. Both were active in the community and very worthy of respect. But... on this one topic they would not budge. They liked the font they chose and would not revise it when they went to print, and anyone who reads Russian or any other Cyrillic-based alphabet would forever read the deck as the DQISHCHD deck.

It's a little thing. It looked cool if you didn't know Russian, and only a few of their potential customers cared. But... it also was just... wrong.

I don't know enough about Japanese culture to have any opinions regarding the Ronin project, other than to say that at first glance, the court illustrations look like other (authentic) Japanese art I've seen. And, I have to give props to Jackson for frequently stretching himself creatively.

But I completely get the "that don't look right to me" sentiment from someone who knows the culture being examined and sees the effort falling short.

I continue to have nothing but mad respect for JR. We all occasionally make unknowing missteps, and if this is one, then so it goes. My financial situation precludes me from jumping in, regardless, but I nonetheless appreciate you sharing your informed opinion on the deck, Jykwei.

As it is, I'm confident that Jackson will find comfort in knowing that even though his approach may not have passed muster with an expert on the culture, the project has nonetheless already blown wayyy past its original funding goal.

[vasta41]

What great information! I like these decks for what they are, whatever that is, so I'm in.

[KingfisherZero]

I'm too lore driven in my deck preferences to be ok with the ronin/clan mismatch. I'll be out primarily for that reason personally.

[KGthePrince]

I was hoping for a grittier theme in a darker art style and this couldn't be further from what I envisioned. While its a pass for me, I understand the general appeal of these decks.

[Bikefanatic]

Maybe the backs don't look Japanese-ish. I like the Diamond Clan design the most.

[Strag]

This is very llikely the least appealing deck to come from KWP that I have seen for my tastes.

I have no idea about those pips, the heart looks like an apple, the clubs are some sort of character that looks more Chinese than Kanji (and I can't find out what it's supposed to be). The diamonds, well not sure why there is a vertical line in the middle... the spade is the only one that maybe looks "in universe" but even then it doesn't match with the other pips.

The back looks like they belong to a Mayan or Inca deck, as others have said that sort of design doesn't resonate with me as Japanese.

The Aces look like they are part of a different deck, maybe the one that the backs go in? Not sure.

The tucks...where to begin? Almost like Jasckon's take on a NOC. Maybe they belong in a third deck?

The courts are the only saving grace for me, and no where near enough to conisder purchase, as although they are well done, as someone else said they could have used a big of aging treatment to reflect the era.

I would also echo that the back story isn't matching as to what Ronin are vs what's being said.

The whole thing seems very rushed to me (which makes sense if it was indeed done in a 24 hour stream) but just not up to Jackon's previous work in my view.

[laitostarr777]

*Slow claps* The four deck set is a slap in the face for all customers.

Well, I second this
Either you have to pick one of the four and had to lived without them OR indulge in your OCD to get all four them. And then it made worse that he made each of them getting their gilded bonanza, and then there’s the box set with different sleeves.

Jeez, Jax…. Definitely won’t waste any opportunity - just like how he decided to do extra variants of Frontier in the last two days of the campaign

[Harvonsgard]

As it is, I'm confident that Jackson will find comfort in knowing that even though his approach may not have passed muster with an expert on the culture, the project has nonetheless already blown wayyy past its original funding goal.

Not sure what is good about that. Not that I had huge faith into capitalism prior but this campaign and Edward L. Bernays is what leads it towards 0%...
It's good to read that quite some folks in here see it as critical as it should be seen imho.

[steampunk52]

*Slow claps* The four deck set is a slap in the face for all customers.

Well, I second this
Either you have to pick one of the four and had to lived without them OR indulge in your OCD to get all four them. And then it made worse that he made each of them getting their gilded bonanza, and then there’s the box set with different sleeves.

This makes me think of the discussion in another thread about how collecting habits have changed for us over time. As a 'collector', I do have a feeling of having to complete the set. However, I have become more selective and have been better at resisting the urge (this stuff gets expensive). I dont as readily fall for the 7,8,9 editions of a series. I don't know where I will net out on this one, but I am only in for a couple of standard decks at the moment. I have been on the fence for the bamboo set which I think is neat, but the bar to spring for gilded is higher now for me than it was a couple of years ago and the deck count is high.

On the one hand, this series provides choice and one doesn't have to get everything. On the other, if I don't get everything, it kinda feels incomplete (as a collector) and almost makes me want to pass all together (which is silly, I know).

But I do like the courts and will likely get a couple of decks at least.

[Evilgamer]

I find I like the faces, and the amount of metallic elements (after receiving this weeks crop of decks Im probably going to nearly stop buying decks that don't have some kind of metallic element on the face, at least if they aren't made by one of a few artists).

The backs are pretty whatever and Im not crazy about the gilding colors, I would have rather seen the back/gilding match the tucks (the tuck sort of matches the faces instead)

Still trying to decide what my final answer will be for how many decks.

[JacksonRobinson]

I am Chinese and I understand sometimes the Japanese uses the same Chinese character but means something else, so I did my 10-minute google research and bring up my suspicions to your attention. The tuck box is surprisingly lazy as I am 99% certain Jackson didn’t write them (it took years to master - and whoever wrote it was not given the credit). If putting kanji on tuck box becomes the new art style for tuck boxes then congrats, there are thousands of characters so they will never run out. But the main problem I have is do they mean what they are supposed to mean? The one for club - I am pretty sure they mean the club as a weapon, not the clover leaf. The words used for diamond actually mean the shape of rhombus - do Japanese actually use those characters to describe the suits of playing cards?

The theme is also very questionable. Ronin - web search consistently say they were samurai’s without their lords and were practically in exile. To be a ronin was not an honorable thing - so what’s the talk about reverencing the code of honor in the campaign? Why not just call this the Samurai deck instead of the Ronin? Why would Ronins be in clans? How much research was done?

The back design does not look Japanese to me. Google it. Most Japanese patterns go with very few different colors - they may have several levels of one or two colors, but they don’t do multi-color like middle-eastern pattern.

I have no objection to the court cards, etc, they appear generic and they surely look Japanese.

I am willing to return here and issue apologies if I was wrong and the project went through adequate amount of research and was based on accurate Japanese culture. I want to raise awareness as I don’t think it is fair for some of you who do not have experience in Oriental art being sold a “Japanese-themed” deck when it was not sufficiently authentic. Perhaps a card collector with a Japanese background can comment. Thank you.

Well, I thought I would give a response to this, based on your accusations that "I didn't do an adequate amount of research"

First of all, I started my research process by making the commitment NOT to just do a 10-minute Google search and also pull up ye old Google Translator, as it looks like you did for your research.

For the suite names and translation, I hired (actually paid for their services) three different Japanese translators to give me the best-suited words for what I was going for. As the suits I used are French in origin, they may not mirror exactly in culture, so that is why I hired three different translators. I figured that if I gave all of them the same rundown of what I wanted and I got multiple responses that were the same, the translation would be the best suited.

I also had multiple conversations with Jack Penny about the appropriate words.

For the calligraphy work, I also hired a traditional Japanese caligrapher to write it for me. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I have no reason or requirement to credit them for their work. It's their profession, and it was work for hire. I've illustrated hundreds of toy packages, and Hasbro has never given me credit for the illustrations. That is your job as a contract artist.

You are sadly misguided by the great and powerful Google if you think that Japanese patterns are predominantly monochromatic. Japanese fabric is some of the most vibrant and colorful in the world. It has multiple levels and numerous colors. As for the patterns "not looking Japanese" enough, I can give multiple historical examples of the exact patterns I used on period-correct woodblock prints of actual samurai.

This project was also not done during a 24-hour live and was drawn over the course of multiple weeks.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of not researching enough, without any real basis or evidence to do so, simply by your own "10-minute Google search"

As always, I know some people aren't going to like some of my projects, and I'm totally fine with that but don't accuse someone of not doing their research when the breadth of your own research is a simple Google search. I appreciate your comments and hope that assuages your suspicions.

[Jykwei]

I am Chinese and I understand sometimes the Japanese uses the same Chinese character but means something else, so I did my 10-minute google research and bring up my suspicions to your attention. The tuck box is surprisingly lazy as I am 99% certain Jackson didn’t write them (it took years to master - and whoever wrote it was not given the credit). If putting kanji on tuck box becomes the new art style for tuck boxes then congrats, there are thousands of characters so they will never run out. But the main problem I have is do they mean what they are supposed to mean? The one for club - I am pretty sure they mean the club as a weapon, not the clover leaf. The words used for diamond actually mean the shape of rhombus - do Japanese actually use those characters to describe the suits of playing cards?

The theme is also very questionable. Ronin - web search consistently say they were samurai’s without their lords and were practically in exile. To be a ronin was not an honorable thing - so what’s the talk about reverencing the code of honor in the campaign? Why not just call this the Samurai deck instead of the Ronin? Why would Ronins be in clans? How much research was done?

The back design does not look Japanese to me. Google it. Most Japanese patterns go with very few different colors - they may have several levels of one or two colors, but they don’t do multi-color like middle-eastern pattern.

I have no objection to the court cards, etc, they appear generic and they surely look Japanese.

I am willing to return here and issue apologies if I was wrong and the project went through adequate amount of research and was based on accurate Japanese culture. I want to raise awareness as I don’t think it is fair for some of you who do not have experience in Oriental art being sold a “Japanese-themed” deck when it was not sufficiently authentic. Perhaps a card collector with a Japanese background can comment. Thank you.

Well, I thought I would give a response to this, based on your accusations that "I didn't do an adequate amount of research"

First of all, I started my research process by making the commitment NOT to just do a 10-minute Google search and also pull up ye old Google Translator, as it looks like you did for your research.

For the suite names and translation, I hired (actually paid for their services) three different Japanese translators to give me the best-suited words for what I was going for. As the suits I used are French in origin, they may not mirror exactly in culture, so that is why I hired three different translators. I figured that if I gave all of them the same rundown of what I wanted and I got multiple responses that were the same, the translation would be the best suited.

I also had multiple conversations with Jack Penny about the appropriate words.

For the calligraphy work, I also hired a traditional Japanese caligrapher to write it for me. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I have no reason or requirement to credit them for their work. It's their profession, and it was work for hire. I've illustrated hundreds of toy packages, and Hasbro has never given me credit for the illustrations. That is your job as a contract artist.

You are sadly misguided by the great and powerful Google if you think that Japanese patterns are predominantly monochromatic. Japanese fabric is some of the most vibrant and colorful in the world. It has multiple levels and numerous colors. As for the patterns "not looking Japanese" enough, I can give multiple historical examples of the exact patterns I used on period-correct woodblock prints of actual samurai.

This project was also not done during a 24-hour live and was drawn over the course of multiple weeks.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of not researching enough, without any real basis or evidence to do so, simply by your own "10-minute Google search"

As always, I know some people aren't going to like some of my projects, and I'm totally fine with that but don't accuse someone of not doing their research when the breadth of your own research is a simple Google search. I appreciate your comments and hope that assuages your suspicions.

Greetings, first of all I'd like to ask Jackson to calm down. My post is meant to be a constructive criticism. While I cannot stop you from using the word "accuse", please re-read my post, as the statement "I didn't do an adequate amount of research" comes from you, not me. My words, instead, are "How much research was done?" and "... issue apologies if I was wrong and the project went through adequate amount of research". All you have to do here is to present your cases and explain your side of the story, and this discussion generates positive exposure that will potentially give you more business, because I know for a fact that I am the only person who feels something is off with the project, and I offer you a chance to clarify things.

I don't think it makes sense for you to state "I spent 10 minutes to research" over your amount of research (which is again, you twisting my words, more on that shortly). I am not the one who created at thousand-dollar project and profiting from what is presented. If people have to be an expert to bring up any issues, no one is qualified to bring up any questions then?

Let's drop all the less important points and talk about the one topic you haven't responded yet. I said, I did my 10-minute research and noticed ronin is not supposed to be an honorable title. If you find in your thorough research that says the opposite, please share your findings, and what elements in the project relate to a ronin. To me, creating a project based on ronin is like a project based on soldiers who are dishonorably discharged - how does this being the "embodiment of Samurai prestige and honor" - I am seriously asking for an explanation. If it is because there are a few ronin in history who redeemed their honor - did this deck try to honor those people? From the KS page, I fail to see that, and I don't understand who those kings/queens/jacks have anything to do with ronin.

Lastly, I supposed hiring 3 paid translators makes "an object like a baseball club" the appropriate translation for the club suit. In Asian countries we often use other words (ie. not a direct translation), like a "plum flower", to refer to a club. Perhaps the translators were given a very rigid interpretation of the request without knowing the context? You mentioned you consulted Jack - while he's assimilated to the Japanese culture, and no disrespect to him, but he's not someone to consult about things of Japanese culture.

Respectfully,

Johnny
ps. "without any real basis or evidence to do so" - so Google search doesn't count I guess. If you have laid out your real basis and evidence in your KS page, I would not have brought this up, and have to face the heat (from only you so far by the way)

[GandalfPC]

Close enough for government work - it’s a deck of cards, not a historical documentary.

Inspiration is all that was claimed, and I see plenty.

[JazzBaloo]

I agree that the response was possibly too much but that part at the end about Jack smells like misappropriation claims and infact there is the odor of it throughout. First he was put down for telling the Frontier story the way he did and now this Japanese themed deck. I apologize ahead of time if anyone is offended by this take and hearing a counter position on why there are these types of criticisms is appreciated.

[GandalfPC]

I would point out that Jack is known to have a wife - and likely has other resources. It was not the most outrageous choice, not being native aside, for a less than life altering priority set of translations, regarding card suits…

[Honeybee]

Greetings, first of all I'd like to ask Jackson to calm down. My post is meant to be a constructive criticism. While I cannot stop you from using the word "accuse", please re-read my post, as the statement "I didn't do an adequate amount of research" comes from you, not me. My words, instead, are "How much research was done?" and "... issue apologies if I was wrong and the project went through adequate amount of research". All you have to do here is to present your cases and explain your side of the story, and this discussion generates positive exposure that will potentially give you more business, because I know for a fact that I am the only person who feels something is off with the project, and I offer you a chance to clarify things.

Saying "issue apologies if I was wrong and the project went through adequate amount of research"
clearly implies that you believe it didn't - so you are actually accusing JR

The research is rarely going to be 100% perfect but there seems little doubt that it was undertaken.
We all make mistakes, Me, You, Jackson and you still have some interesting questions such as the kanji for club but as far as JR undertaking research you might have been better off starting your reply with the promised apology. It seems to me that Jackson's reply is calmer than yours - your opening sentence alone makes it LESS calm!