State Of The Playing Card Market?

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State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

Hi folks.... i've alwasy kept an eye on this place for deck news and always appreciated the feedback we got for the LUXX releases back in the day. So i thought this would be the perfect place for this discussion. Sorry if it's a bit 'all over the place' :D


I've had many conversations with customers, suppliers and designers over the last few years regarding where the card industry/market is right now, and will be in the future - but i'm interested in what you guys think.

Since I started selling decks back in 2012 there have been sooo many changes to the card industry (some good some bad) it's difficult to know where to start, but here are a few areas I'm curious about (there are many more).....

- We sell the same volume of decks that we have done for years, but we actually do that from less than half the number of options/releases. Are you guys way more selective these days and if so, are you more inclined to stick to a theme/type of deck?

- We've been inundated now for a year or two wth collectors wanting to sell off their collections. Have your tastes changed over the years, and in doing so - did you choose to sell off your 'older' decks? Or do you think this is people stopping collecting entirely?

- theory11 have had an obvious business plan for years now, which seems very smilar to the action figure or 'funko' licensing release model to me. Things generally appear to be slowing down for some of their releases, do you think card collectors are tiring of the 'licensed deck' releases?
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by GandalfPC »

The early collecting I did was a mixed bag - it included kickstarts for Minty, Penny and RiffleShuffle - and I ran around after this and that deck that I thought was something special for whatever reason, collecting the names I thought had it all going on…

A year or three in and I can say there are a decent number of early decks that don’t fit my collection anymore - ones that are likely of little value and will likely stay that way - hardly worth offloading at pennies on the dollar, though I might just to clear out the space one day. But I am not in a rush to part with them, and don’t regret buying them - for they were how I started collecting, and I wouldn’t have found the decks I really appreciate without the journey.

I buy less from the new market now, as I am more interested in the old - but also because there are fewer that ring my bell - often because I already have something like it, that I like better.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Honeybee »

G sums it up very well for me too. Unlike him, I only have a couple of hundred different decks (not counting multiples) but that is because I have always been very selective. Like G, some early ones are no longer a good fit but that is simply because we become more knowledgeable.

I thought I might manage to stay around 200 but now will only guarantee staying under 400. I want what I consider to be the cream so that I have time to give them some attention/enjoy them - not just file them away (although I have an excellent filing/storage system) Being retired and having a fairly finite income has also contributed to my restraint

I find I buy as many decks from a decade ago as I do new releases. Having been into books, I apply the same thinking - that most worth looking at 'have already been made'. Only considering the latest of anything is uneducated thinking.

Even though I believe custom card collecting to be a relatively new industry, I have nevertheless come to it late.
After having SO MANY hobbies, I have no doubt that it was the hobby that was meant for me - you can see the evidence in my life story. My wife has a similar story - her 'meant to be' is knitting.
I imagine we are seeing people change their hobbies and selling off their whole collections. This would be because while fun for a while - cards are not their 'meant to be'

Living in remote Australia, recently inflated shipping costs have become a real problem. In my mind, I have to price average out the shipping cost and therefore sometimes wait for something that I want multiples of. Desiring multiples of, is itself a weird thing!
I don't wear them out and although I like to look at them - I have to keep them in pristine condition. I imagine an analyst would go to town on the urge to sometimes buy multiples. I will always believe some of it is shipping but maybe some of it is Goldfever

ps I don't think I have a single licensed deck
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by mtsedwards72 »

Here's a response from a relatively newbie (been collecting for maybe almost a year?).

I came into this arena via tarot decks. That space was getting too fraught with AI. Also, the indie prices were exorbitant, only for some mass market company to buy them out and sell them for half the price I paid for them indie. I was jaded and wanted out.

I am also a solo board gamer and began to dabble in solo RPGs which required a deck of cards. I wanted to match my stories with themed decks, so down the rabbit hole I went, basing a lot of my earlier deck purchases on the "pretty", similarly to how I collected tarot. Of course, since playing card decks were infinitely more affordable than tarot, I kinda went hog wild.

Then I stumbled upon this lovely bunch of folks and really did my research and decided I needed more focus and curation so I didn't spend indiscriminately and profligately like I did with tarot. I went in as a collector, not as a cardist or magician. I decided I wanted a representative deck for all the "major players/companies". (For Bicycle, I just chose decks purely for personal aesthetic). Then I narrowed it down even more and collected for unique pips and court cards. I went on a brief transformation playing card bender as well as a hanafuda bender, but ultimately settled back into my original criteria. I spent a pretty penny to acquire some older decks, but worth it, in my completionist's opinion.

Now, with the crowdfunding market becoming too saturated with newbies, I just try to upkeep my current library. There are no-brainer designers for me (OPC, Jack Brutus Penny, Meadowlark, Stockholm 17) from whom I gladly spend my money, but for others (Thirdway, Theory 11, Uusi), I try to be more discerning and only scoop up their decks if the theme/art sings to me. I AM growing weary of licensed deck releases, but that's also because my interests are very old and very niche.

I am trying to avoid FOMO so I don't have an out-of-control collection and thus do not intend to do any selling of my decks at all, even if/when my interest in this hobby wanes.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by montenzi »

Great question—everything is on point and timely. I'll share my perspective on this, not just as a designer or collector but also as a retailer, as I own the largest playing card shop in New Zealand.

You described the situation pretty much as it is right now. When you mentioned doing the same volume with fewer releases, I can even guess that you've started selling more T11 decks.

The main issue is that the playing card market isn’t scalable. There’s only a limited number of people who are genuinely interested in it, and the only way to grow the market is by targeting casual buyers who make impulse purchases, either for themselves or as gifts. These buyers are mostly interested in the theme or brand of the deck. And what are the decks that appeal to a broader (and less limited) audience? Exactly, it’s everything T11 offers. Right now, this is the only viable business strategy—creating products that have a broad appeal. Another great example of this is The Lord of the Rings by KWP. Both are doing the right things.

The number of releases has decreased, and the reason is consistent—currently, decks can only be produced as passion projects rather than as viable businesses, which is the approach taken by 95% of designers. Of course, not everyone falls into this category. There is a second group of designers who focus solely on releasing high-quality products; however, they must launch multiple releases throughout the year, with each one meeting exceptional quality standards. These projects need to be large-scale, and achieving that is extremely challenging. While it is possible to launch these projects primarily through Kickstarter, it requires an inordinate amount of effort to sell the remaining stock afterward. Essentially, the process involves offering the deck on Kickstarter and then clearing the remaining stock through wholesalers. Even for this group, there is little hope for retail sales that would exceed what was initially offered on Kickstarter.

The third group of designers—by far the largest—launch a few projects each year, and the only thing they get in return is disappointment if they go into it expecting to make money or treat it as a business. The key is to understand and accept that this is just a hobby, a passion. Then, everything will be fine. Personally, I view it that way—it’s a hobby.

Now, let's talk about distribution. Why are there fewer projects? Not long ago, I shared my thoughts on this forum regarding the numerous sales by Murphy's Magic, which have led to sites like SoCal dumping decks at prices lower than wholesale because MM cannot sell them. While customers may be happy, there are significant consequences to consider. It would be one thing if these were clearly low-quality decks, but they are not. You are well aware of the top-quality projects available at bargain prices. This situation reinforces what I mentioned earlier—there is little hope for retail sales after Kickstarter, primarily because the market is limited. Given this context, what kind of mindset would one need to support such practices?

Personally, I've made my decision: I have no intention of going down that path again—I simply won't offer anything wholesale. If I ever do, it will be a rare exception. For a $1-2 profit from selling wholesale, all you're really getting is a headache.

On one hand, I understand that fewer options in retail shops can lead to decreased profitability and diminish the appeal of their businesses. On the other hand, until the issue of blatant disrespect for creators' work—such as deep discounts and overstock dumping—is addressed, the number of releases distributed through wholesale will keep declining. Moreover, if a wholesaler can't sell, for instance, 1,000 decks, why not simply order 100 from the designer? Lately, I’ve noticed they’ve been ordering far fewer decks than they used to, which is a good sign. But it also supports my point—if you don't know how to sell what you print, it's better not to print at all or only print what you can realistically manage on your own.

As for the issue of self-distribution, I've conducted numerous tests using advertising. Yes, it often works, it works for me, but it's not for everyone. And as I mentioned, it's not scalable. You simply can't keep spending more and more on advertising because there are limits to demand. Otherwise, I would be happy to spend even $1,000 a day if it generated at least $2,000 in sales. But the market limits are much smaller.

In conclusion, I wish everyone the best. The key is to avoid inflated expectations and to focus on doing what you enjoy; everything else is secondary. Sometimes it’s better to focus on small projects and be happy than to strive for big ones and feel dissatisfied. :mrgreen:

P.S. I highly recommend reading everything that Ben from Elephants Playing Cards has shared on this forum recently and on his Instagram a couple of years ago. He is probably one of the best in this business (if you treat it as a business), and his insights are incredibly valuable and may be eye-opening for some.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by RandyButterfield »

I probably would’ve stopped designing Playing Cards years ago, if I hadn’t found success with the Comic Cons, Art Shows, Summer Festivals and Holiday Shows that I sell at. A first it was out of necessity. I caught Blue Crown not paying me thousands of royalty dollars on the White ORNATES project. Part of our “settlement” agreement was they would send me all of the leftover ORNATE Decks. None of them had over 200 remaining, but over 10 different Decks, it was just under 1,200 Decks that I had to figure out how to unload. I knew they wouldn’t sell well online, since Blue Crown had listed all of them as sold out after one of Alex’s Birthday Sales. And I don’t market or buy ads for my storefront.

So I looked into selling at some shows. I started off slow, maybe 8 to 10 shows a year. After a couple years, the ORNATE Decks were pretty much gone! During that time I had also started to add variety to my booth with more and more solo Decks. I found it to be a great way to sell the leftover stock post-Kickstarter.

Flash forward to now - I do around 17 to 20 shows per year - I mostly self-fund certain Decks meant specifically for the shows (Euchre Decks, Cardinals…) - I self-fund reprints of my best sellers - my table usually includes a great variety of 27 Decks - and the shows are now more consistent and profitable than the Kickstarters. Because Euchre is extremely popular in Indiana and Michigan, I keep most of my shows to those two states. If I do a weekend show and sell 400 Decks, the mix of Euchre Decks sold would range from 120 to 160 of those 400 Decks sold. Because of that, the Indiana Euchre Deck now has the highest print quantities of any of my solo Decks (the fourth print run is in production now, 2,000 more, to bump the total to 7,250). The Indiana Euchre Kickstarter in 2019 had only 168 Backers. My goal is to print a 5,000 print run of Indiana Euchre next year, so my per Deck cost is as low as possible. I have a Michigan Euchre Deck for later this year, and I fully expect that one to be just as popular as its Indiana counterpart.

Selling custom Playing Cards to casual buyers is definitely a unique experience. Most of them have know idea that custom Decks are even a thing. It’s fun but exhausting work!

I have no idea if the Kickstarter world will be more consistent in the future or not. Until then, I’ll continue to create designs that I believe will sell well at shows first and foremost. A great example is Draconian Crimson. The Draconian Decks have always been great sellers at shows. All I have left are a little over 200 Draconian Wildfire Decks from a 2,000 self-funded reprint I did a few years ago. Instead of printing Wildfire for a third time, I chose to revamp the design and launch the Draconian Crimson Kickstarter. Pollock Euchre was another choice to take a design that sold well at shows and revamp it to a Euchre variation that should sell extremely well at shows (only 52 Kickstarter Backers).

The great thing about the reprints meant for shows is no wholesale. Like Montenzi says, selling wholesale for barely any profit is a headache.

Thanks, Randy
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

Honeybee wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:07 pm I find I buy as many decks from a decade ago as I do new releases. Having been into books, I apply the same thinking - that most worth looking at 'have already been made'. Only considering the latest of anything is uneducated thinking.
This is an interesting take. I personally don't agree but I can definitely see the thought behind it. What kind of new releases do you pick up?
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

GandalfPC wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 4:43 pm I am not in a rush to part with them, and don’t regret buying them - for they were how I started collecting, and I wouldn’t have found the decks I really appreciate without the journey.
This is how I feel about any decks that i've personally bought over the years. There are a few that I don't enjoy as much, but I did lobe them at one stage so they're going nowhere.
GandalfPC wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 4:43 pm I buy less from the new market now, as I am more interested in the old - but also because there are fewer that ring my bell - often because I already have something like it, that I like better.
What recent releases have you really enjoyed then? Are there specific brands you look out for?
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm Here's a response from a relatively newbie (been collecting for maybe almost a year?).

I came into this arena via tarot decks. That space was getting too fraught with AI. Also, the indie prices were exorbitant, only for some mass market company to buy them out and sell them for half the price I paid for them indie. I was jaded and wanted out.
This is really interesting. We've stocked a sprinkling of tarot and divination over the years (James R.eads, Uusi, Weird Works, Holy Spectrum) but never really delved too deeply. We picked those because in my opinion they're unique and quality design work stands out. Plus the printing is, for the most part, very good.
mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm I am also a solo board gamer and began to dabble in solo RPGs which required a deck of cards. I wanted to match my stories with themed decks, so down the rabbit hole I went, basing a lot of my earlier deck purchases on the "pretty", similarly to how I collected tarot. Of course, since playing card decks were infinitely more affordable than tarot, I kinda went hog wild.
Also interesting. Cards are 30% of our sales on average and we've been asked by some of our customers if we'd ever sell indie board games, but the market looks even more saturated to me.
mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm
I decided I wanted a representative deck for all the "major players/companies". (For Bicycle, I just chose decks purely for personal aesthetic). Then I narrowed it down even more and collected for unique pips and court cards. I went on a brief transformation playing card bender as well as a hanafuda bender, but ultimately settled back into my original criteria. I spent a pretty penny to acquire some older decks, but worth it, in my completionist's opinion.
Did this mean the smaller brands/indies were less attractive and had to work harder to get your attention?
mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm Now, with the crowdfunding market becoming too saturated with newbies, I just try to upkeep my current library. There are no-brainer designers for me (OPC, Jack Brutus Penny, Meadowlark, Stockholm 17) from whom I gladly spend my money, but for others (Thirdway, Theory 11, Uusi), I try to be more discerning and only scoop up their decks if the theme/art sings to me. I AM growing weary of licensed deck releases, but that's also because my interests are very old and very niche.

I am trying to avoid FOMO so I don't have an out-of-control collection and thus do not intend to do any selling of my decks at all, even if/when my interest in this hobby wanes.
Don't get me started on saturation (and price)! In my opinion cardistry hype brands share a lot of responsibility for the hobby becoming so saturated with mediocrity. We have been offered wholesale pricing for (literally) thousands of decks from at least 3 cardistry brands over the last couple of years.

The common thread through all of those is that the decks we were offered were all allegedly sold out.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

montenzi wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:14 pm You described the situation pretty much as it is right now. When you mentioned doing the same volume with fewer releases, I can even guess that you've started selling more T11 decks.
Actually no, theory11 has dropped off a little. But the overall business model of having a broad appeal does clearly work for them. The thing is they're becoming far more readily available, which is part of it. THey're going for mass market, and volume. Good luck to them.
montenzi wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:14 pm The main issue is that the playing card market isn’t scalable. There’s only a limited number of people who are genuinely interested in it, and the only way to grow the market is by targeting casual buyers who make impulse purchases, either for themselves or as gifts. These buyers are mostly interested in the theme or brand of the deck. And what are the decks that appeal to a broader (and less limited) audience? Exactly, it’s everything T11 offers. Right now, this is the only viable business strategy—creating products that have a broad appeal. Another great example of this is The Lord of the Rings by KWP. Both are doing the right things.
I could not agree more, JR knows what he's doing and I think he'll be successful for as long as he wants to be. He's passionate about art, design and cards and he dabbles with the broader appeal approach.
montenzi wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:14 pm The number of releases has decreased, and the reason is consistent—currently, decks can only be produced as passion projects rather than as viable businesses, which is the approach taken by 95% of designers. Of course, not everyone falls into this category. There is a second group of designers who focus solely on releasing high-quality products; however, they must launch multiple releases throughout the year, with each one meeting exceptional quality standards. These projects need to be large-scale, and achieving that is extremely challenging. While it is possible to launch these projects primarily through Kickstarter, it requires an inordinate amount of effort to sell the remaining stock afterward. Essentially, the process involves offering the deck on Kickstarter and then clearing the remaining stock through wholesalers. Even for this group, there is little hope for retail sales that would exceed what was initially offered on Kickstarter.
Bang on.
montenzi wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:14 pm
Now, let's talk about distribution. Why are there fewer projects? Not long ago, I shared my thoughts on this forum regarding the numerous sales by Murphy's Magic, which have led to sites like SoCal dumping decks at prices lower than wholesale because MM cannot sell them. While customers may be happy, there are significant consequences to consider. It would be one thing if these were clearly low-quality decks, but they are not. You are well aware of the top-quality projects available at bargain prices. This situation reinforces what I mentioned earlier—there is little hope for retail sales after Kickstarter, primarily because the market is limited. Given this context, what kind of mindset would one need to support such practices?

Personally, I've made my decision: I have no intention of going down that path again—I simply won't offer anything wholesale. If I ever do, it will be a rare exception. For a $1-2 profit from selling wholesale, all you're really getting is a headache.

On one hand, I understand that fewer options in retail shops can lead to decreased profitability and diminish the appeal of their businesses. On the other hand, until the issue of blatant disrespect for creators' work—such as deep discounts and overstock dumping—is addressed, the number of releases distributed through wholesale will keep declining. Moreover, if a wholesaler can't sell, for instance, 1,000 decks, why not simply order 100 from the designer? Lately, I’ve noticed they’ve been ordering far fewer decks than they used to, which is a good sign. But it also supports my point—if you don't know how to sell what you print, it's better not to print at all or only print what you can realistically manage on your own.
This is a real insight. We are only ever contacted/asked to be a stockist of a deck now in one of two situations:

1. They've already sold hundreds/thousands to Murphys and so the deck is everywhere and we don't want to stock it anyway and have a race to the bottom.
2. They're dumping the stock they can't sell and they expect us to take pretty much everything, which is not realistic.
montenzi wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:14 pm P.S. I highly recommend reading everything that Ben from Elephants Playing Cards has shared on this forum recently and on his Instagram a couple of years ago. He is probably one of the best in this business (if you treat it as a business), and his insights are incredibly valuable and may be eye-opening for some.
Yes, Ben is a good guy and has his head on right.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

RandyButterfield wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:45 pm I probably would’ve stopped designing Playing Cards years ago, if I hadn’t found success with the Comic Cons, Art Shows, Summer Festivals and Holiday Shows that I sell at. A first it was out of necessity. I caught Blue Crown not paying me thousands of royalty dollars on the White ORNATES project. Part of our “settlement” agreement was they would send me all of the leftover ORNATE Decks. None of them had over 200 remaining, but over 10 different Decks, it was just under 1,200 Decks that I had to figure out how to unload. I knew they wouldn’t sell well online, since Blue Crown had listed all of them as sold out after one of Alex’s Birthday Sales. And I don’t market or buy ads for my storefront.

So I looked into selling at some shows. I started off slow, maybe 8 to 10 shows a year. After a couple years, the ORNATE Decks were pretty much gone! During that time I had also started to add variety to my booth with more and more solo Decks. I found it to be a great way to sell the leftover stock post-Kickstarter.

Flash forward to now - I do around 17 to 20 shows per year - I mostly self-fund certain Decks meant specifically for the shows (Euchre Decks, Cardinals…) - I self-fund reprints of my best sellers - my table usually includes a great variety of 27 Decks - and the shows are now more consistent and profitable than the Kickstarters. Because Euchre is extremely popular in Indiana and Michigan, I keep most of my shows to those two states. If I do a weekend show and sell 400 Decks, the mix of Euchre Decks sold would range from 120 to 160 of those 400 Decks sold. Because of that, the Indiana Euchre Deck now has the highest print quantities of any of my solo Decks (the fourth print run is in production now, 2,000 more, to bump the total to 7,250). The Indiana Euchre Kickstarter in 2019 had only 168 Backers. My goal is to print a 5,000 print run of Indiana Euchre next year, so my per Deck cost is as low as possible. I have a Michigan Euchre Deck for later this year, and I fully expect that one to be just as popular as its Indiana counterpart.

Selling custom Playing Cards to casual buyers is definitely a unique experience. Most of them have know idea that custom Decks are even a thing. It’s fun but exhausting work!

I have no idea if the Kickstarter world will be more consistent in the future or not. Until then, I’ll continue to create designs that I believe will sell well at shows first and foremost. A great example is Draconian Crimson. The Draconian Decks have always been great sellers at shows. All I have left are a little over 200 Draconian Wildfire Decks from a 2,000 self-funded reprint I did a few years ago. Instead of printing Wildfire for a third time, I chose to revamp the design and launch the Draconian Crimson Kickstarter. Pollock Euchre was another choice to take a design that sold well at shows and revamp it to a Euchre variation that should sell extremely well at shows (only 52 Kickstarter Backers).

The great thing about the reprints meant for shows is no wholesale. Like Montenzi says, selling wholesale for barely any profit is a headache.

Thanks, Randy
Love hearing this Randy, i'm glad you've found a way to make it pay without wholesale. Fair play to you.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by RandyButterfield »

Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:42 am Love hearing this Randy, i'm glad you've found a way to make it pay without wholesale. Fair play to you.
Hey Paul!

We should definitely catch up sometime. My family and I were just in England in July.
I thought about reaching out to see if you wanted to meet up, but we travelled west of London instead of north.

I still offer the original print run for wholesale. But like Montenzi says, Murphy’s is buying less and less.
It’s just the reprints I don’t offer up for wholesale, even if Murphy’s is sold out of that Deck.

Thanks, Randy
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Evilgamer »

I’ve only been collecting about a year but it ebbs and flows. I do find im getting more selective. The deck needs to be non-standard and it needs to have some form of metallic accents on the faces and preferably be gilded as well. I’m not particularly price sensitive but for a less known brand who they are printed with matters a lot.

I have zero regard for tuck design and having multiple identical decks.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by felicityk »

Paul Middleton wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 4:07 pm - We sell the same volume of decks that we have done for years, but we actually do that from less than half the number of options/releases. Are you guys way more selective these days and if so, are you more inclined to stick to a theme/type of deck?
For me, a deck needs to have fully custom courts. Beyond that, I don't stick to a particular theme, but there are certain themes I avoid, either because of disinterest or oversaturation. A skull/skeleton deck or a pirate deck needs to be very special to get my attention.
- We've been inundated now for a year or two wth collectors wanting to sell off their collections. Have your tastes changed over the years, and in doing so - did you choose to sell off your 'older' decks? Or do you think this is people stopping collecting entirely?
I have the experience of being a collector in more than one area, and I see my playing card collecting following a similar path to my Barbie doll collecting. At first, I was racing to catch up and buying everything that vaguely appealed to me. Over time, some of my acquisitions seem less special and I let them go. Since I focus on custom courts, I regularly re-evaluate decks with courts that are based on standard but embellished: is it enough?
- theory11 have had an obvious business plan for years now, which seems very smilar to the action figure or 'funko' licensing release model to me. Things generally appear to be slowing down for some of their releases, do you think card collectors are tiring of the 'licensed deck' releases?
I'm certainly tiring of them. My habit was to buy two of most Theory 11 releases to even out the shipping cost, then gift the second to someone who likes that property. For example, I just brought a Superman deck to a friend at Dragon Con, who loved it. But now I'm less likely to double up, and trying to wait until they have released two or more decks I want. And the licensed properties I'm not a fan of, I avoid altogether. (Sorry, Beetlejuice!)

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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by felicityk »

mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm Here's a response from a relatively newbie (been collecting for maybe almost a year?).

I came into this arena via tarot decks. That space was getting too fraught with AI. Also, the indie prices were exorbitant, only for some mass market company to buy them out and sell them for half the price I paid for them indie. I was jaded and wanted out.
Cool, me too! I crossed over long before the AI explosion, but I was tired of the sameness of Lo Scarabeo releases and looking for new artists that really spoke to me. That led me to Kickstarter, and soon to playing cards.

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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by KGthePrince »

I think Gandalf and Felicity summed up my thoughts on collecting and curation so I will point out a few trends that I am really not a fan of:

1) Lack of transparency in use of AI in a project. AI doesn't bother me like it does for others, but not being honest about it is a cardinal sin in my book.

2) Fomo marketing. A recent, and particularly egregious example is T11's release of Summer Monarchs. After neglecting their original fans in favor of IPs, they try to placate us by offering a ✨ new colorway of a previous release✨. Fine. But then making it a 🚨THIS WEEKEND ONLY NEVER TO BE PRINTED AGAIN🚨 was a slap in the face. You're gonna neglect us then try to make a quick buck off us? Respectfully T11, go f*ck yourself.

3) Overpriced decks with gimmicky features and subpar or muddy art. I'm looking at you, Ark.

4) Gatekeeping cool decks behind high paywalls. Again, looking at you, Ark.

5) And finally, too many versions of a deck in a campaign. Not every project needs a foiled, gilded, foiled-gilded or super holographic omega blah blah variation. I love Dexter but the recent Unity campaign made my head spin. I couldn't keep track of all the offerings.

Okay....rant over 😅
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Evilgamer »

To be fair to ark, the Egypt deck was very clearly printed, it was necessary to spend way too much to get what I wanted though
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by ShuffleUpandDeal »

KGthePrince wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 12:12 pm I think Gandalf and Felicity summed up my thoughts on collecting and curation so I will point out a few trends that I am really not a fan of:

1) Lack of transparency in use of AI in a project. AI doesn't bother me like it does for others, but not being honest about it is a cardinal sin in my book.

2) Fomo marketing. A recent, and particularly egregious example is T11's release of Summer Monarchs. After neglecting their original fans in favor of IPs, they try to placate us by offering a ✨ new colorway of a previous release✨. Fine. But then making it a 🚨THIS WEEKEND ONLY NEVER TO BE PRINTED AGAIN🚨 was a slap in the face. You're gonna neglect us then try to make a quick buck off us? Respectfully T11, go f*ck yourself.

3) Overpriced decks with gimmicky features and subpar or muddy art. I'm looking at you, Ark.

4) Gatekeeping cool decks behind high paywalls. Again, looking at you, Ark.

5) And finally, too many versions of a deck in a campaign. Not every project needs a foiled, gilded, foiled-gilded or super holographic omega blah blah variation. I love Dexter but the recent Unity campaign made my head spin. I couldn't keep track of all the offerings.

Okay....rant over 😅
Yep I agree with most of that. As someone with way too many decks to count, I too have scaled back my collecting quite a bit. I have also fallen into another rabbit hole of collecting card games over the last couple of years, there are surprisingly way more than one would think, lol.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by GandalfPC »

Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:17 am What recent releases have you really enjoyed then? Are there specific brands you look out for?

Riley Sheehey deck has me where it wants me

Penny, Elettra, Lotrek, Lorenzo, Meadowlark - always make me happy

Mini deck from last curio campaign was bees knees…

Space Cat v2!

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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by steampunk52 »

My habits mirror many of the responses thus far. I started collecting in 2019 when I was first exposed to some custom decks and dovetailed with an increasing interest in card magic. I learned of Theory 11 and card campaigns on Kickstarter and acquired a few more. Then the pandemic hit. The combined time available to indulge in learning more about the hobby, need for pleasant distraction and increased discretionary income because I wasn't doing anything else caused my collection to explode. I was picking up anything that looked interesting for a while and often times (usually) multiples of a deck.

Now, like others, I have decided I have too many. So I have been working on thinning out my collection. At least of decks that have value/interest. I have a number of decks that were a 'thing' a few years ago that don't carry much interest today and are hard to move. These will probably end up hidden away in a box as it's not worth the trouble trying to sell them.

Im still getting new stuff, but much more selective. Today, my focus is stuff from Lorenzo, Lotrek, Penny primarily. I also like Elettra, Meadowlark. I was big into KWP for a while, but have dialed back quite a bit on Jackson's stuff. Not sure what it is, but I havent been as into his more recent work with a few exceptions. Also, like Jocu's stuff, but dialed back there as well (might be because I have most everything - ha ha)

As for licensed decks, it really depends. I picked up the Basquiat and Fairey decks as Im a fan. The more recent comic and movie IP are fine, but doesn't rise to the level of adding to may already too big collection.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by montenzi »

Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:41 am
This is a real insight. We are only ever contacted/asked to be a stockist of a deck now in one of two situations:

1. They've already sold hundreds/thousands to Murphys and so the deck is everywhere and we don't want to stock it anyway and have a race to the bottom.
2. They're dumping the stock they can't sell and they expect us to take pretty much everything, which is not realistic.
I forgot to mention something. One suggestion to avoid such situations and give designers more control over discounts (or the lack thereof) is to switch from upfront payments to a model where payments are made based on actual sales. This approach could theoretically also increase designers' accountability, as they would recognize there are limits. Using MM as a last resort, without considering the potential consequences, is often irresponsible and can lead to future clearance sales. If I ever supply my decks to MM, I'll be using this model, as MM is okay with it.

One story - I sold out of the EV Blue deck on my site, and then noticed it on sale, so I bought back all 24 units. A week later, I did the same thing, but at an even lower price. And once again, 24 red decks. Since then, MM's stock level hasn’t moved much, but I’ve sold half of what I bought on my site at full retail price. If I see another sale, I’ll buy more. It goes to show that sales on wholesale sites are often much weaker than what a designer can achieve independently at full retail price.
Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:30 am
mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm Here's a response from a relatively newbie (been collecting for maybe almost a year?).

I came into this arena via tarot decks. That space was getting too fraught with AI. Also, the indie prices were exorbitant, only for some mass market company to buy them out and sell them for half the price I paid for them indie. I was jaded and wanted out.
This is really interesting. We've stocked a sprinkling of tarot and divination over the years (James R.eads, Uusi, Weird Works, Holy Spectrum) but never really delved too deeply. We picked those because in my opinion they're unique and quality design work stands out. Plus the printing is, for the most part, very good.
The tarot market is huge! You will instantly attract more new customers as soon as you start offering quality tarot decks. Recently, I ran a short marketing campaign, and the response was significantly better compared to offers for playing cards in the same theme. Playing cards are still a great upsell option when you offer tarot.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by mtsedwards72 »

Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:30 am
mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm
mtsedwards72 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:58 pm
I decided I wanted a representative deck for all the "major players/companies". (For Bicycle, I just chose decks purely for personal aesthetic). Then I narrowed it down even more and collected for unique pips and court cards. I went on a brief transformation playing card bender as well as a hanafuda bender, but ultimately settled back into my original criteria. I spent a pretty penny to acquire some older decks, but worth it, in my completionist's opinion.
Did this mean the smaller brands/indies were less attractive and had to work harder to get your attention?
On the contrary, I sought out smaller brands/indies - usually directly on the creator website if they had one (although anymore, people only market via social media and I don't like that; give me a website!) or on Etsy. I find that most online deck sellers make their online storefronts really difficult to navigate for indies.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Harvonsgard »

I for my part have definitely slowed down. Almost everything I pick up these days, besides Lorenzo, Lotrék and uusi, are cardistry decks and decks to fidget with.
Seems like the honeymoon is over for me. But I think that's due to what and how it is offered on the market. E.g. I'd love to collect quirky Bicycle editions but importing them from Asia is a hassle and pricey. A price I'm not willing to pay.
Somehow companies like Ark, RiffleShuffle, Kingstar and alike never really resonated with me.
Elettra and Jack were the only designers that made me feel an excitement like I had in my early days.
I rarely see exciting projects where an artist catches the essence of playing cards and pairs it with above average art. A shame that great visual artist (like e.g. Wylie Beckert) aren't really interested in creating more decks.
You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that’s being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world.

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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by GandalfPC »

Deck I’m most excited for is the next one acetofive posts ;)


Also whatever Leo and Cumpstey might be up to…


Elaine Lewis decks of course, and any Peter Wood deck I might find to exist that I had no idea existed…
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Honeybee »

Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:13 am
Honeybee wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:07 pm I find I buy as many decks from a decade ago as I do new releases. Having been into books, I apply the same thinking - that most worth looking at 'have already been made'. Only considering the latest of anything is uneducated thinking.
This is an interesting take. I personally don't agree but I can definitely see the thought behind it. What kind of new releases do you pick up?
By "most worth looking at have already been made" I mean that, just as the case with books, it is likely that <20% of what is produced for the rest of your lifetime, will be rated amongst the greatest of all time ie Classics. As I am OLD it will be < 5%
90% of what collectors would kill to get their hands on has been produced between 1400 and 2023
I am not sure how you can disagree with that?
I should really have said 'most worth buying' as I like to look at everything

My most recent NEW RELEASE purchases are:
DS's Innocence Gold Foil to get the Legacy deck
Ian Cumpstey's Shimmering Seven (had to get a half brick of this one!)
The latest Hesslers deck
The new Honeybees (the first time I have ever fallen into the completionist trap)
Fulton Street 1958 (love the backs - even got myself the 1958 subway map from which it was taken PS wife born in 58)
Fontaine Collage x Missing New York
(AND Lorenzo's S17 Anthology)
I have Summer Monarchs coming plus Osprey and Goshawk from KS

ps I have bought a few from you in the past Paul
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by felicityk »

steampunk52 wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 3:28 pm My habits mirror many of the responses thus far. I started collecting in 2019 when I was first exposed to some custom decks and dovetailed with an increasing interest in card magic. I learned of Theory 11 and card campaigns on Kickstarter and acquired a few more. Then the pandemic hit. The combined time available to indulge in learning more about the hobby, need for pleasant distraction and increased discretionary income because I wasn't doing anything else caused my collection to explode. I was picking up anything that looked interesting for a while and often times (usually) multiples of a deck.
The pandemic coincided with exponential growth in my collection as well. I was working from home, and the one part of my job I could do remotely I often had to reschedule or delegate due to chronic laryngitis (a condition that predated covid). I can certainly relate to the need for pleasant distraction!

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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by rave »

Hello Paul,

Your reflection is very interesting. I've been collecting playing cards since 2010. In Spain there is a group of deck collectors to which I belong., which has gradually been losing members. We even had our own deck and merchandise.

My friends and I've bought decks from your store several times.

There are several reasons why, at least in Spain, the collection of USA playing cards is disappearing, just when there are more releases than ever, more printers, and more talented designers.

At the beginning there were not so many releases, which made me buy any deck, even when the design wasn’t good or I had to wait a year to receive it through Kickstarter. The prices were reasonable, decks for €4 and more exclusive decks for €8, and these prices included shipping costs when ordering several decks from the USA. Here I made the mistake that many people do, not giving sense to the collection and being critical of each purchase.

Later, we started the dynamic of limited edition decks. Due to the timezone difference, we had to buy the decks at night and many times it was'nt possible to get them, so the collections become incomplete, which was quite discouraging for me.

There were also the endless variations of the same deck, with simple color changes, which special cases, gilded decks, holographic ones, etc.

Then came the high-priced decks. I remember paying $35 for Jackson’s unbranded certificate deck seemed crazy to me (keep in mind you also have to add international shipping costs). And from there, prices kept rising and rising. Now, $35 doesn’t seem outrageous at all.

So much variety that it’s impossible to keep up with, the impossibility of completing collections, the price of decks, the prohibitive shipping costs, and in Spain, any purchase from outside the EU now pays customs duties. All of this takes away the excitement of collecting. At my peak, I was spending more than $500 a month on decks.

What do I collect now? I like Bee brand decks, T11 decks, and some designs that stand out in some way. Also, vintage decks (1900-1980), which ironically can be bought cheaper than modern decks, including Spanish decks.

I’m not sure if this answers your question, but in any case, thank you for reading my opinion. And sorry if you didn't understand something, my written English is not good.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by max »

I loved reading this thread because many things said here are part of a collective consciousness, especially from serious collectors who, like me, have witnessed the birth and growth of most companies and artists in the sector (with whom I've shared time and experiences, and some I consider good friends).

My good friend Rave has pointed out many essential aspects regarding the near disappearance of the collector community in Spain, which I think reflects what Paul mentions and questions. I want to delve a bit more into this topic, perhaps with a more retrospective story.

I believe the origins of "the crisis" are in a massive growth of decks (many of them with mediocre graphic quality but with collectible value) and variations flooding the market with hundreds of color versions. Companies and artists tried to maximize market hype (which is perfectly legitimate), but this gradually deflated completist collectors who saw their collections becoming more incomplete.

When I started collecting playing cards almost 20 years ago, it was hard to get poker cards in Spain. Ebay was almost the only option, as only some small magic shops had imported decks. When I began Max Playing Cards about 12 years ago, an emerging market appeared on Kickstarter, allowing new creators to use cards as an art canvas. Designers and companies like Uusi, Lance Miller, Circle City Cards, Encarded and others found their space in a market where decks were cheap because productions were too, and shipping costs reasonable.

In a short time, we enjoyed an explosion of design cards and fabulous people (like my good friend Randy, who I miss a bit; Hi Randy!) full of passion and eager to change the world of design and collection cards. Then, it was possible to collect everything (or almost) without selling your kidney. That was, in my opinion, the golden era of collecting.

As a collector, I tried to have a role beyond creating a collection. I reinvested all profits from my Texture series campaigns to buy new decks, hoping to create a big community here in Spain and attract less favored people or those with more difficulties accessing a market where speaking English and controlling Internet purchases was essential. I spent thousands of dollars on that goial, instead of creating a more solid structure for my future in playing cards or my own website, prioritizing the creation of a strong community of both collectors and artists.

When the market flooded, things changed, especially for European countries (Brexit also divided Europe in this sense), due to new import policies, dramatic increase in shipping costs, taxes, and increase in variations and production prices. For me, it meant an immediate decrease in my purchasing capacity that died completely more than 5 years ago, a bit before the pandemic. Simply, my resources were exhausted.

Since then, I have seen, as Paul mentioned, close friends and great collectors abandoning their collections, selling off their most valuable pieces (sometimes poorly sold) and leaving the harder-to-sell ones in an endless wait. My own collection, with around 20,000 decks, which includes thousands of duplicate decks, feels frozen in time. This is a significant trauma for someone who has been collecting for two decades. It is hard to see a once vibrant hobby become a burden, with a huge collection that I cannot enjoy or grow.

Living in Europe, specifically in Spain, where the card market is almost non-existent and even shops have stopped offering cards because they're no longer profitable products, and having a large collection with many duplicates, ends up becoming a critical problem. It's impossible to get buyers at a fair price after having endured huge shipping costs, high prices, and taxes that no collector, for example American, has to face.

I don't want this message to sound like a nostalgic speech from an old collector (which I am) longing for the past. I believe the market is full of talent, but we need to understand how it works. Murphy's is adapting to the market, buying 100 decks when they used to buy 700 because they now have the same daily catalog additions that they used to have weekly. As Alex wisely points out, creating a project now for a designer is a passionate adventure, very romantic, but not at all economically viable, and this is very sad.

Moreover, the increase in minimum print runs and printing costs (not to mention, for example, the cost of putting the Bicycle logo on a deck now) means that an average project can't sustain itself without at least $10K in funding (without counting any profit, just to cover costs), and relying on wholesale sales that mainly serve to offset production costs and avoid losing money. FOMO also affects Murphy's decisions, as they see that a deck whose stock is decreasing (their limit on the website is 146 decks) creates a sense of greater urgency and sells better.

This has led to many campaigns with talented designs failing due to lack of follow-up and honest cost planning (this year I witnessed with great disappointment my first failed production on Kickstarter after more than 20 successful productions). Over the years, I've tried to help new artists achieve their dream of seeing their deck printed, and it's very sad to see some decide to throw in the towel after seeing their efforts go nowhere despite offering products full of passion and quality. Obviously, the market is sovereign, and complaining about it is like swimming against the current. However, how to adapt remains a mystery.

Why does T11 sell their cards so successfully? Firstly, because they can handle occasional losses without problems. Secondly, because they have, as Alex rightly pointed out, a huge target audience, and their licensed decks work well everywhere. That's why they produced fewer than 5 different decks annually between 2007 and 2010, and last year they made 20, a number that will be equal or greater this year. Additionally, they have the ability to control the market and offer only certain decks to wholesalers, creating hype again for some of them that are almost impossible to get if you don't live in the USA. For example, if I wanted to buy the latest T11 deck priced at $12, I would have to pay an additional $23.72 in shipping and fees, which would mean a total cost of over $35 for a deck that can be bought in any store that Murphy's sells to for less than half that. This is disheartening and discourages many people from continuing to buy cards online.

I'm not sure if this contribution sheds enough light because I think the "problem" has no solution, only evolution towards an uncertain future where we'll continue losing collectors due to, among other things, business practices. But at least I've been able to express my opinion and tell my story in a forum where there are good friends I've known since their beginnings, and to whom I can only wish very good luck and great success (and offer my help as I've always done).

A hug to all.
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

RandyButterfield wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:20 am
Paul Middleton wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:42 am Love hearing this Randy, i'm glad you've found a way to make it pay without wholesale. Fair play to you.
Hey Paul!

We should definitely catch up sometime. My family and I were just in England in July.
I thought about reaching out to see if you wanted to meet up, but we travelled west of London instead of north.

I still offer the original print run for wholesale. But like Montenzi says, Murphy’s is buying less and less.
It’s just the reprints I don’t offer up for wholesale, even if Murphy’s is sold out of that Deck.

Thanks, Randy
Ah that would have been cool, it may have clashed with our break but it's a fair distance down there (at least to us in the UK not used to driving massive distances)..

I'll drop you an email to catch up!
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Re: State Of The Playing Card Market?

Unread post by Paul Middleton »

I'll give the comments from Rave and Max proper replies when I get time! :)

But...

I loved the Hornet reproduction from CCC. What a blast from the modern-ish past.
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