I've been quite vocal about so-called playing card artists using AI in their projects and blatantly lying about it. One of the most recent examples is a project called BIG BROTHER 2024 by Andy Kurovets, also known as 3rd Dominion on this forum as well as on Kickstarter. You can read my (Gajus) comments on the campaign comment section here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/3r ... 4/comments
Being unable to defend their position in the comment section, Andy decided to leave a few extremely amusing comments on my public art page (Gajus Eidi), both on Instagram as well as on Facebook. I've just seen the Facebook comments today as I'm not active on that page. The screenshots I will upload here do not contain any personal information which is not/was not public. All the comments have been reported and deleted, and all three accounts (dominion3rd, otowatches, Andy Kurovets) have been blocked. I do have a screen capture video showing that the comments on the Facebook page were from the original Andy Kurovets account. If needed, I can remove personal information from the screen capture video and share it as well. Let's take a look, shall we?
I guess, the moral of the story is - be careful when exposing playing card con artists on Kickstarter, you might not be ready for the extreme amusement that ensues.
Yikes the king of diamonds is particularly egregious. Dude has a finger coming out from the back of his hand. Jackof diamonds has 3 huge fingers and a teeny tiny pinky. Looks bizarre
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Looking to buy: NPCCD 2016 Pink Tuck (or set); Oath Icons Imperial Reverse. DM me if selling!
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:58 am
It always amazes me for what kinda battles folks take their time. I would lie, if I would pretend it’s not entertaining though.
I'm glad you find it entertaining, I'm in the same camp. Besides the amusement and entertainment, there's people's money and the integrity of the Kickstarter playing card industry in question.
Honeybee wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:25 pm
That wikiHow has to be AI doesn't it?
Not sure about the text, but the illustration doesn't seem like it. You have clean lines, a clear concept and you don't see any Chernobyl mutants in the picture.
CrystalDrug wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 4:54 am
Is it not the case? I'd like to hear your position on that.
It's not, no. My pov is as follows:
If I like the art it doesn't matter how it was crafted so there is no money in question.There're two decks that I found mildly interesting involving AI. All other decks with AI, were decks that lacked always the touch I look for in a deck - can't describe it with words. If most of AI decks appeal to you, why bother claiming to not like AI? Get what I try to convey?
For integrity: in a capitalist society integrity is low anyways, especially in advertising so, I personally have no clue how you could endanger that low level of integrity. For folks that have risen the bar and stand with their name for a high (or higher) level of integrity like Lorenzo or alike, how could some bad apples like 3rd dominion or that Vietnamnese creator (Bao Phan or similar if I remember correctly) mudden that water? Are folks not able to differentiate bad apples from good ones anymore?
I have just been reading this thread! AI is a real problem in the the illustration industry (and I am sure many others, like music). By using AI "we" are shooting ourselves in the foot! Any "artist" using AI participates to the descreditation of real artists. It's already hard to make people understand the value of art, and now it's even harder! I have already lost a couple of briefs because clients have decided to use AI instead because it's so much cheaper, or even free (e.g. Poster for a gig, Album art covers). What they don't realise is that the AI models they use have been trained on millions of artworks, stolen art. Often AI doesn't create anything new, but only "tweaks" existing things. It's copyright infringment at the largest ever scale. I am so worried about my future as an illustrator, and I really hope that people and clients will in the end look for authenticity and will know how to recognise AI generated images. But I wonder if that will even be possible, because I am sure that AI will get much better over time, and counting fingers won't be enough anymore.
My hope is that if AI becomes part of our lives, that at least it is a tool - NOT as the final output. To have some AI generated images as part of your moodboard, why not (but even then, the proplems of copyright infringments and stolen art remains). But using AI generated art as the final output, this is not enough imo. I can't even say how angry I am about how those platforms take no moral responsability in destroying our industry.
When it comes down to it, A.I. is not an opportunity in my industry - one defined by purpose, craft and identity - all of which is lost through A.I.
For those who aren't familiar with EGAIR, I would recommend checking them out, they are doing a fantastic work in trying to regulate art theft and AI.
And for all artist out there, don't forget to check out Glaze and Nightshade, which are softwares that modify your images in an invisible way to the naked eye, but efffectively poison your images so that they become unusable by the AI models, and even distorts the result. (eg. give it a cow image, and the software recognise it as a hat, and therefore users that ask for a cow, get a weird hat-cow instead.)
First; check your privilege. You don’t have the right to make a living from your art, if it doesn’t touch enough folks. In a world where folks work in incredible hard occasions to make the world turn, it’s fookin’ lazy to play the “muh, AI theft”- or “muh, AI took muh job”-card. Easy as that.
Second; gitgud! I never heard s-tier artists (e.g. James Jean, Wylie Beckert, Walther Hernandez, Ai Wei Wei, Inti, Lorenzo, … ) complain about AI. Says everything I need to know.
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:21 am
It's not, no. My pov is as follows:
If I like the art it doesn't matter how it was crafted so there is no money in question.There're two decks that I found mildly interesting involving AI. All other decks with AI, were decks that lacked always the touch I look for in a deck - can't describe it with words. If most of AI decks appeal to you, why bother claiming to not like AI? Get what I try to convey?
If you don't care how an artwork is made, you're a prime target for scams. Take Italian street hustlers, for example. They print out a bunch of watercolor paintings from various artists on watercolor paper and try to sell them as originals to tourists passing by. They make a whole act and everything, pretend to paint on the spot. There's always money in question, otherwise these scams would not be happening. I haven't met a single person who found AI decks appealing; only those who didn't know it's AI. In my experience, such people will always rationalize their purchasing decisions and deny the fact they were scammed because that's what people do.
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:21 am
For integrity: in a capitalist society integrity is low anyways, especially in advertising so, I personally have no clue how you could endanger that low level of integrity. For folks that have risen the bar and stand with their name for a high (or higher) level of integrity like Lorenzo or alike, how could some bad apples like 3rd dominion or that Vietnamnese creator (Bao Phan or similar if I remember correctly) mudden that water? Are folks not able to differentiate bad apples from good ones anymore?
The first sentence is a broad generalization and does not mean anything. I'm talking about the whole Kickstarter playing card industry, which includes small and new creators, not just Lorenzo or any other established artist. It's obvious how rampant AI scams hurt buyer trust and brings the integrity of the whole industry in question. Theory11 had to make a statement on Reddit because of this.
MathildeHeu wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:29 am
I am so worried about my future as an illustrator, and I really hope that people and clients will in the end look for authenticity and will know how to recognise AI generated images. But I wonder if that will even be possible, because I am sure that AI will get much better over time, and counting fingers won't be enough anymore.
I'm doing a study on one Kickstarter project and I will share my findings wherever I can in the near future. Just like AI is evolving, AI detection software is evolving with it.
I haven't met a single person who found AI decks appealing; only those who didn't know it's AI
There is something wrong with that sentence if you think about it
There have been some brilliant forgers/artists in the art world. People would bid millions for some - does it then follow that they were only appealing until someone doubted their provenance
KoD - my initials, no wonder I grew up a lover of playing cards Avatar - Honeybee (No.15+17) Tuck pic by Randy Butterfield for PM
Myself and another designer at my day job have used AI a few times this year, for designs that called for unique cocktail shots or backgrounds. Most of our clients are wine and spirits brands, so we’re always on the lookout for quality cocktail imagery. AI is particularly great for generating your own stock images or background graphics that you couldn’t find anywhere else!
This is probably the perfect thread to show a design I’ve been working on for a few months, and to see what the reactions are to it (negative or positive). It’s my first design with AI illustrations. I love creating fully-custom Decks, but the amount of work it takes to create unique drawings for 12 Courts, 2 Jokers, maybe 4 Aces and a Back Card(s) can be overwhelming at times.
I thought of the concept for a pair of Travel the World Decks when my wife and I were planning out what we wanted to see during our family trip to England and Paris last month (it was a blast, except for the flat tire in Windsor, and flying home the morning of the CrowdStrike delays). Travel the World is an info design, similar to other info Decks that focused on learning Photography, helping with public speaking or learning about Wines…. The consumer group I’m reaching for with this design is the broad range of people who enjoy traveling. My idea for Travel the World needs 110 custom Travel Poster style illustrations (108 Face Cards between the two Decks and 2 Back Cards). I know from my experiences that I would get completely bored of the theme if I drew them myself, probably once I got close to 20 or so. So I played around in MidJourney to see what it could do within the Travel Poster style. Besides some light Photoshop cleanup and painting, the results have been great.
Travel Posters have been around in the advertising world since the early 1900s. Many artists have created drawings in this style for over 100 years. So in this case, AI isn’t really “stealing” from other artists. It’s recreating a travel destination in a specific style that’s already been imitated by artists for a very long time. It definitely needs a lot of trial and error to get to an eye-pleasing illustration for each destination.
When I launch the Travel the World Decks on Kickstarter, I will definitely be forthcoming about using AI to create the illustrations. I have no idea what to expect for support on this one. My hope is it will do very well if my advertising reaches travel fans outside of the Playing Cards scene. But I’ll also be ready for any backlash towards utilizing AI.
I doubt I would ever use AI to create any male or female humans for a Playing Cards design. If I use AI for any future Decks, it would also be for a theme that doesn’t include people in the artwork (cocktails, plants, flowers, food, architecture…..).
But I realized the theme was much better suited (no pun intended) to a book format and I bought the book instead
I can understand you might tire of the theme after 20 works - strangely 59 parks did not have that problem as they already more than 52 to choose from but they only did the Courts
I don't like all the writing on the cards (info decks) and personally I would rather buy the book
Attachments
National Parks.jpg (72.3 KiB) Viewed 2587 times
KoD - my initials, no wonder I grew up a lover of playing cards Avatar - Honeybee (No.15+17) Tuck pic by Randy Butterfield for PM
CrystalDrug wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 4:58 pm
If you don't care how an artwork is made, you're a prime target for scams. Take Italian street hustlers, for example. They print out a bunch of watercolor paintings from various artists on watercolor paper and try to sell them as originals to tourists passing by. They make a whole act and everything, pretend to paint on the spot. There's always money in question, otherwise these scams would not be happening. I haven't met a single person who found AI decks appealing; only those who didn't know it's AI. In my experience, such people will always rationalize their purchasing decisions and deny the fact they were scammed because that's what people do.
If you can’t differentiate between a print and a watercolour painting… oh bwoi… that aside: Explain to me how people find AI art appealing but only when they don’t know it’s AI crafted? That proves my point that there is no objectivity and they only think art is bad because some push the agenda AI=bad. They are afraid to admit they like something because of agenda pushers. I’m opposed to this agenda pushing. Let people decide if they like the art or not, period.
The hiding of AI involvement or the degree of AI involved is partially because of exactly this agenda pushing. I’m not saying there’re no scammers at all, which try to make a quick buck but fellows on the anti-AI side don’t see that they kinda poisioning the well.
I haven't met a single person who found AI decks appealing; only those who didn't know it's AI
There is something wrong with that sentence if you think about it
My point is that people find certain decks appealing with an honest presumption that they were handmade and reflect the craftsmanship and artistry of the designer/artist. When they find out they were scammed, the best you can hope for is post-purchase rationalization as it's a lot easier to scam people rather than make them admit they were scammed.
Honeybee wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:04 pm
There have been some brilliant forgers/artists in the art world. People would bid millions for some - does it then follow that they were only appealing until someone doubted their provenance
Brilliant art forgers are brilliant artists themselves. They have extensive knowledge of forensic methods, chemistry, art mediums and principles and are highly skilled in their craft. Some forgeries cost way more than the originals mostly because of the craftsmanship and skill that went into creating them. You are comparing forgers that have dedicated their lives to master their craft to some lazy con artists that can't even be bothered to fix mangled hands in their AI-generated portraits. I don't see how that's a fair comparison.
RandyButterfield wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:56 pm
When I launch the Travel the World Decks on Kickstarter, I will definitely be forthcoming about using AI to create the illustrations. I have no idea what to expect for support on this one. My hope is it will do very well if my advertising reaches travel fans outside of the Playing Cards scene. But I’ll also be ready for any backlash towards utilizing AI.
I hope you do properly disclose the use of AI in your project and are transparent with your supporters. I have absolutely no issue with creators who are upfront about the use of AI and the extent of it. Although, I haven't seen such a project yet (not saying there are none), I've only seen falsified WIP image sequences and never ending lies from dishonest creators.
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:27 am
If you can’t differentiate between a print and a watercolour painting… oh bwoi… that aside: Explain to me how people find AI art appealing but only when they don’t know it’s AI crafted?
First off, the term is AI-generated, not AI-crafted. AI does not craft anything, it's what people do with their hands. The reason is simple - there's an intrinsic presumption that the artwork we buy is handmade, authentic and genuine. This is where a lot of the value of an artwork lies.
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:27 am
That proves my point that there is no objectivity and they only think art is bad because some push the agenda AI=bad. They are afraid to admit they like something because of agenda pushers. I’m opposed to this agenda pushing. Let people decide if they like the art or not, period.
You really should have read my comments on the Kickstarter campaign page before making such absurd assumptions. Since you haven't done your homework, let me explain - my position is not AI=bad, that's just an ignorant position to take. My position is this - not following the Kickstarter AI policy rules and blatantly lying about the AI involvement in the creation of an artwork that you are selling is dishonest, shameful and appalling. People are allowed to like whatever they want, I don't see how I'm infringing on their right to do so.
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:27 am
The hiding of AI involvement or the degree of AI involved is partially because of exactly this agenda pushing. I’m not saying there’re no scammers at all, which try to make a quick buck but fellows on the anti-AI side don’t see that they kinda poisioning the well.
Your first sentence is just an excuse for scammers and con artists. I'm not a fellow on the anti-AI side, I use text-to-image GenAI imagery professionally and have generated over 17,000 images to date. If you dropped the straw man arguments and listened to what I'm saying, you might understand the reason why I'm talking about these issues.
But I realized the theme was much better suited (no pun intended) to a book format and I bought the book instead
I can understand you might tire of the theme after 20 works - strangely 59 parks did not have that problem as they already more than 52 to choose from but they only did the Courts
I don't like all the writing on the cards (info decks) and personally I would rather buy the book
Hey Honeybee,
I looked at that project when planning everything. The most important thing to note about the National Parks project is they used and credit 36 Artists for it. So they hired 36 Artists to create 59 Illustrations between them. That right their proves the point that 110 Illustrations of a similar style, over a year or two, would burn out any Artist.
The Travel the World project will involve the 2 Decks plus a 112-Page Book that contains each of the Face Card destinations from the 2 Decks. I’ll have the Book available separately, so I’m sure some people may just want the book.
By now, I’ve sold Decks to a few thousand casual Playing Card buyers at the shows I do (most of them didn’t even know that custom Playing Cards was a thing that existed). So I’ve learned what what casual Playing Card buyers are mostly drawn to over that time. I think / hope they’ll like the addition of the copy, learning the bullet points of each destination. We’ll see how it goes. Sometimes you really never know until a project launches!
I was referring to AI usage in general. The assumptions made are absurd from your pov and that’s fine. I’ve seen a lot of comments and am able to read the temprature of the room on e.g. instagram. The above post from e.g. Mathilde is an example of what I was referring to. I’ve read a lot of that since the AI image generation and chatgpt became publicly available. I’ve read quite some posts/stories of artists that had a similar pov than mine but they’re in the minority. Anyhow. Folks are free to choose their criteria on what to put their money in. I for my part would feel easy to play if the origin of art would influence how I respond to it, that’s all.
CrystalDrug wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 9:03 am
Your first sentence is just an excuse for scammers and con artists. I'm not a fellow on the anti-AI side, I use text-to-image GenAI imagery professionally and have generated over 17,000 images to date. If you dropped the straw man arguments and listened to what I'm saying, you might understand the reason why I'm talking about these issues.
Yes, I’ll definitely mention AI in the Kickstarter campaign. I’ll even call out MidJourney as the software I used.
I have a question for you, if that’s alright. What is your job title for work? I’ve seen others mention that they’ve generated thousands of AI images, and my first reaction is always - “why?”.
What job would need someone to generate 17,000 AI images, even over a few years time? The only thing I can think of is that you work for one of the AI companies. Or maybe you work for a Stock Image site?
I find the whole process of generating AI images very tedious. Whenever I’m working on an actual drawing, there’s always a sweet spot where you hit a groove and 2-3 hours feels like only 30 minutes.
AI is the opposite for me. The minute or so it takes MidJourney to create four little postage stamp Renders after putting in a prompt feel like forever. If I’m working with MidJourney nonstop for 2 hours, it feels more like 3-4 hours have passed. That’s why I only work with AI when my wife and I just watching a show or movie at night.
I couldn’t imagine taking the tediousness of generating over 17,000 AI images.
