TGW presents The Beetlebacks designed by Widakk

[shkorc]

Could the planned delivery for January 2025 have played a role as well? Besides the economy and Christmas time.

[Evilgamer]

Could the planned delivery for January 2025 have played a role as well? Besides the economy and Christmas time.

Could have, one person asked about it on the campaign forum.

I don't know what warning flag that sets off in peoples heads though, as far as Im concerned its a "it is what it is" kind of situation, not like I can get this deck from anyone else sooner.

looking at my stack of other pledges I only have two other campaigns that are listed as later than Mayish, corrupted and one other that I think is probably the one I have the most concerns about delivery (not because of the date)

[PiazzaDelivery]

Could the planned delivery for January 2025 have played a role as well? Besides the economy and Christmas time.

Could have, one person asked about it on the campaign forum.

I don't know what warning flag that sets off in peoples heads though, as far as Im concerned its a "it is what it is" kind of situation, not like I can get this deck from anyone else sooner.

looking at my stack of other pledges I only have two other campaigns that are listed as later than Mayish, corrupted and one other that I think is probably the one I have the most concerns about delivery (not because of the date)

I think anyone with even slight Kickstarter experience will prefer a delivery date 2 years out rather than one in 8 months, which itself raises so many red flags. We've all been to a restaurant at which the food comes out in 5 minutes...

[laitostarr777]

I am thinking, the reason Beetlebacks loses more pledges because… well, the Prism is no longer a Prism, if you know what I mean

[Timmargh]

And the 2 week delayed response...yes that was the case it emailed asking for a review overnight and its posted it to the site now.

Mine arrived today and is live on the site.

[brownsl]

I regrettably dropped my pledge along with all my other KS pledges. I hate to do that towards the end of a campaign but I am going to pull back almost completely on my spending. I will likely be backing away from all my Patreon supports also.

[crazy_lazy]

Unfortunately had to drop my prisms close to the end, I had been holding on to hope that funding would be close enough to make the holo faces happen, as the prisms feel really incomplete without them. But after seeing the huge funding drops that would make the even the black borders difficult to produce, I couldn't get stuck with prisms that I most likely wouldn't keep. It's not looking good, but I'll wait and see if the backerkit can turn things around

[Honeybee]

I regrettably dropped my pledge along with all my other KS pledges. I hate to do that towards the end of a campaign but I am going to pull back almost completely on my spending. I will likely be backing away from all my Patreon supports also.

What gives brownsl, up until now you have been buying by the brick

[Bradius]

I can speak from my own experience of going crazy in card collecting for several years that at some time you feel like you have enough and just want to pause, or move in a different direction. Sometimes you get back in. Sometimes, like my coin collection has been paused for over 10 years.

[Honeybee]

Omar a couple of other little things to consider:
This thread (which was started by you) spells Beetlebacks as 1 word BUT if you type it as one word into a KS search - you find nothing!
Also to help people find the KS page, I would consider starting a new thread on launch so that a link to KS is always the first post instead of on pg 8 like it is for this thread

[hsbc]

Also to help people find the KS page, I would consider starting a new thread on launch so that a link to KS is always the first post instead of on pg 8 like it is for this thread

We could also start "pinning" a post with the Kickstarter link to the top of each page in that specific topic, especially with long topics like this one -- I'd welcome any thoughts on this

EDIT: Actually I'm not sure we can do this right now, I'll keep looking

[masagin303]

Also I missed the launch stream hype like with the Tempest. In general, TGW brand was built around quality audiovisual content and that part diminished.

[GandalfPC]

We could also start "pinning" a post with the Kickstarter link to the top of each page in that specific topic, especially with long topics like this one -- I'd welcome any thoughts on this

EDIT: Actually I'm not sure we can do this right now, I'll keep looking

I have been known to edit the first post to add the link - never heard a complaint

[Evilgamer]

Also I missed the launch stream hype like with the Tempest. In general, TGW brand was built around quality audiovisual content and that part diminished.

Well there was a launch stream...it was pretty fun actually, Even had a giveaway.

[masagin303]

Also I missed the launch stream hype like with the Tempest. In general, TGW brand was built around quality audiovisual content and that part diminished.

Well there was a launch stream...it was pretty fun actually, Even had a giveaway.

Ooops, totally missed that one! Sorry for misinformation!

[crazy_lazy]

This is probably a little early to ask, but with the Goldsmiths getting printed with WJPC, will the same happen for these? Or are we going the poll route first?

[TheGentlemanWake]

Im working on a man update for the campaign soon. But it looks like we are forced by Cartamundi to go a different route. My conversation with Ann folders provided very little confidence in Cartamundi’s ability to print custom decks.

[bdawg923]

There's a discussion on reddit about how this project is asking EU backers to now pay shipping,vat and import taxes after promising eu friendly fulfillment. On the one hand, production costs should be lower due to wjpc (likely?) being less expensive than cartamundi. On the other hand, this is an unexpected cost that couldn't be accounted for. How do you think something like this should be handled? Should creators pay out of their profits or out of their pocket, or should they be able to add on costs after the fact? Apologies if I didn't summarize it correctly. Trying to understand the situation based on the reddit post.

[Adamthinks]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't vat and import taxes paid at delivery and not when shipped? Meaning that there isn't a way for TGW to cover those?

[bdawg923]

Not sure. If that's true, then should the creator have done more to find an eu fulfilment company? Surely there isn't only 1. If the original ks campaign said there might be UNfriendly eu shipping, some eu backers may have thought twice before backing. Part of the issue is what was promised in the beginning not matching what is happening now. Backers are being asked to pay more after the fact.

[Fenrir]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't vat and import taxes paid at delivery and not when shipped? Meaning that there isn't a way for TGW to cover those?

If you are an individual yes. Companies can and should remit payment ahead of arrival.

[Timmargh]

Not sure. If that's true, then should the creator have done more to find an eu fulfilment company? Surely there isn't only 1. If the original ks campaign said there might be UNfriendly eu shipping, some eu backers may have thought twice before backing. Part of the issue is what was promised in the beginning not matching what is happening now. Backers are being asked to pay more after the fact.

In a reply to a comment on the latest update on Kickstarter, Omar said:

[...] fulfillment partners are difficult to come by and require a lot of trust. Unfortunately we don't have any long standing relationships in place with any other EU fulfillment centers that we know have experience with playing cards fulfillment and we do not want to risk products arriving damaged or ill-packed. [...]

[Fenrir]

Bdawg my thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand I can understand these “unexpected” costs coming up due to having to switch printers and I’m sure the profit margins are not high enough to cover the additional costs. Usually this should be baked in or clarified before the KS ends. That way people can make a decision to support or not. Cartamundi no longer doing custom playing cards is a complete 180.

That being said, Omar is a veteran creator and someone who knows fulfillment well. He has his own website and has worked with a ton of others. When the decision needed to be made between going to WJPC from Cartamundi I feel like he should have been aware about the implications of US fulfillment. That being said, it sounded like he was going to use Deallez and we know that company has been MIA and basically gone. I’m not sure exactly how the VAT works and if shipping from China to Deallez would have gotten around this (I don’t think so). It’s still being imported. So long story short, in my opinion before the order was sent to WJPC he should have offered EU backers the option to get a refund, reduce his print volumes and avoid this whole thing entirely.

Reputation is everything and we all know how many creators reputations have been adversely affected from poor decisions. This may be another one of those which may inevitably affect his up upcoming two other releases with Kevin and who knows what else.

[Evilgamer]

Ive read and participated in that thread. It's largely predicated (and repeated here) on the theory that the move to WJPC HAD to be pure profit, and that Omar is being greedy by not cutting into a huge profit that HAS to be there. Ignoring that it also increased shipping costs by a good bit, including getting the tucks into china so they can be packaged (and some paid rework of the art, and I think the tucks themselves?)

Also European backers seem to want to make it that European vat and duties aren't a big deal and something the producer should just absorb...right up until they are asked to pay them, and just how much that ends up being smacks them in the face, and then its "not fair".

The situation with Dealez(?) is also not great, I dont think Ive heard of it recently but their unresponsiveness from earlier in the year must have continued. Looking back through my email it looks like Giovanni chose to fulfill his Phantasma campaign 100% of out GW (which yes...does mean he ate the euro costs most likely, we'll see how his TGT campaign ends up being set up for shipping).

[Adamthinks]

Frankly, what has happened with Cartamundi has created a bit of a seismic shift in the industry. The extra costs and issues could end up taking two of the better creators out of the industry entirely. TGW if he can't make any profit, and now Jocu is considering exiting the industry after they fulfill everything this year. Backers in europe now having to pay vat is a minor part of it. Kickstarter is supposed to be about backing creators to achieve projects. The hand wringing over VAT seems to me to be against the whole purpose of backing. These circumstances aren't the result of poor planning by Omar. Cartamundi dropped the ball and its affecting everyone.

[bdawg923]

Frankly, what has happened with Cartamundi has created a bit of a seismic shift in the industry. The extra costs and issues could end up taking two of the better creators out of the industry entirely. TGW if he can't make any profit, and now Jocu is considering exiting the industry after they fulfill everything this year. Backers in europe now having to pay vat is a minor part of it. Kickstarter is supposed to be about backing creators to achieve projects. The hand wringing over VAT seems to me to be against the whole purpose of backing. These circumstances aren't the result of poor planning by Omar. Cartamundi dropped the ball and its affecting everyone.

I get that Kickstarter isn't a store and backers pledge to make projects happen, but it's also not a Patreon with an ongoing subscription cost. Backers DO treat ks like a store. Pledge for a deck, the price is shown in the beginning, that's how much they're expecting. It's not tgw's fault that things changed, but imo it's the cost of doing business. It may not be fair to tgw to pay the extra cost, but surely it's not fair to the backers either to pay the additional cost? I certainly see both sides of it. I don't want creators to go out of business either.

Someone in the ks comments also asked for a refund because they don't agree to the new terms and were told they can't even get a refund anymore. Which to me is just bad. this person doesn't want to pay a surprise charge after being told there was eu friendly shipping. The terms changed and they don't agree to the new terms. What happens now? Their cards get returned and they in effect donated money for nothing? At the very least people don't are in the eu who don't agree to the new terms should be able to get refunds.

Say for example half the decks were lost in transit and a creator has to reprint them. The shipping company may say insurance doesn't cover it. Should the creator then go to the backers and ask for more money to print new decks? Do they deserve refunds? Is this the cost of doing business that the creator should've planned for? Or do half the backers don't get decks they paid for? Who takes responsibility. Generally I guess I'm wondering what people think about how things that go wrong in a campaign should be handled. Especially things out of a creators control. Does the creator pay or should the backers pay? Or maybe it just depends on the specific situation

[bdawg923]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't vat and import taxes paid at delivery and not when shipped? Meaning that there isn't a way for TGW to cover those?

If you are an individual yes. Companies can and should remit payment ahead of arrival.

This looks to be correct. I was checking stuff on s17's shop and items say "Customs fees / import fees might be applied depending on the country. EU-friendly, non customs fees applied even if shipped from Texas (VAT paid).." So it's possible for tgw to pay the vat ahead of time for backers. I understand this wasn't foreseen because there was no plan to ship from Texas to eu. But it is possible

[bdawg923]

Ive read and participated in that thread. It's largely predicated (and repeated here) on the theory that the move to WJPC HAD to be pure profit, and that Omar is being greedy by not cutting into a huge profit that HAS to be there.

Maybe the reddit discussion was, but I only mentioned it here. My discussion is predicated mostly on who should be responsible for extra fees if something goes wrong or not according to plan in a project. Even if wjpc is more expensive, is it the backers burden to bear or the creators who is making the decisions?

(Sorry for 3 consecutive replies. I'm pretty ass at these multi-reply in one comment things )

[Evilgamer]

Ive read and participated in that thread. It's largely predicated (and repeated here) on the theory that the move to WJPC HAD to be pure profit, and that Omar is being greedy by not cutting into a huge profit that HAS to be there.

Maybe the reddit discussion was, but I only mentioned it here. My discussion is predicated mostly on who should be responsible for extra fees if something goes wrong or not according to plan in a project. Even if wjpc is more expensive, is it the backers burden to bear or the creators who is making the decisions?

(Sorry for 3 consecutive replies. I'm pretty ass at these multi-reply in one comment things )

My perspective is "it depends"

Error in printing, should be fixed by the printer (look at Lotreks update on why mystery III was delayed, printer basically destroyed the first run on accident and then reprinted it their cost).
Producer "didnt like" the first printing...somewhat of a "it depends" and whether they paid for a test print before doing thousands.
Lost/damage in transit, probably cost of business, reason to insure the shipment, Giovanni just lost what it sounds like 2 boxes of 400 unit runs to this.
Change the printer, your costs went up, cost of business.
Didn't actually figure out what it was going to cost to print and ship to your own country and didn't ask for enough when you sold it...cost of business/education

Shipping to 100s of countries, which is where this question ends up coming from...Honestly should be correctly billed to the customer near time of shipment rather than estimated on KS. I think we are going to see more and more of this. Coming from non-cards KS campaigns...this was the norm for me, I never paid KS for shipping it always came from backer kit for exactly what it was going to cost. But yeah once you do that...you better be able to deliver for that price.

[Honeybee]

In some cases - these 'unlucky' cost of business expenses are going to see producers walk away from the industry as they won't put that burden on their family finances
Surely we, the crazy card enthusiasts, can be supportive and understanding of those that produce the things we love. I'm still not seeing many millionaire card designers out there