The Groundskeeper by Wyrmwood (Produced by the Gentleman Wake, ill. Dan Greta)

[GandalfPC]

with just the percentage based ones its 38%, so no “ordering more for economy” there, ouch

VAT and duty alone are pretty punitive - I think the main problems is the EU’s crazy policies on imports - in the US if its not over $2600 they don’t charge a dime and after that its closer to 10% (been so long I don’t even remember)

Fees to collect fees after passing through a company or two that collects a fee, fi fo fum. That’s going to get big.


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From UPS site:

…that from 1 July 2021, there are significant changes to the European Union’s Value Added Tax rules applying to the shipment of goods into the EU. While these reforms primarily target B2C e-commerce imports, impacting both businesses and online shoppers, they may also impact B2B imports.

Whether and how the new EU VAT reform impacts your business depends on the value of the goods you sell, whether you sell to businesses or consumers and whether you use online marketplaces.

Here’s a quick overview of the most important changes. You can also refer to our EU VAT Reform Guide for more detailed information.

For goods valued up to €22: Goods with a value up to €22 will no longer be exempt from VAT and will now require formal customs clearance. You should keep this in mind as you price your products.
For goods valued up to €150: If you’re selling directly to EU consumers, you have two options to pay VAT:
Bill your account - UPS declares VAT at the point of import and charges your business
Charge consumers VAT at the point of sale and declare it to the EU (for example via the IOSS platform)
For goods valued above €150: The EU VAT reform only impacts goods valued up to €150 that are sold to a consumer. For goods sold to a business as well as goods valued above this threshold, you can continue to charge, declare and pay EU VAT as you do today.

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according to bard the duty on a deck of cards should be another 10% - and that carrier fees are common

—

only way I see is to have an EU partner take a single shipment and handle distribution - not sure how much percentage savings can be achieved though - lets hope other people understand this better than me and figure something reasonable…

Perhaps if the packs are celloed in the EU before being shipped then they are EU products and not subject to VAT…

[Disenchanted_11]

Perhaps if the packs are celloed in the EU before being shipped then they are EU products and not subject to VAT…

You mean like, Cartamundi? They triggered all this shitstorm

Actually after getting my hands on a 666 by Cartamundi, I'd get on the boat of those who will rather wait and see than change printers. I'm glad Goldsmith will wait. It'll be just another layer of bother when we get our hands on Groundskeeper and it doesn't feel as nice.

[Strag]

That's certainly all what they like to say, and UPS is the worst for charging extra fees. The reality is I pay NONE of those fees when it comes to anything shipped by normal mail from the US, uncluding items with declared values of over $100 from places. They are using scare tactics to force companies into using their services and their quite rediculous charges.

There are many ways to avoid these charges if one simply tries, and all legal as well. However it is far easier to wash ones of all the hassle and pass on the charges to the end user. Fair enough if those charges are known in advance. In this case that is far from the situation.

[laitostarr777]

I finally got a reply from Wyrmwood, and I can affirm that it is the same description as what Wake forwarded:

[PiazzaDelivery]

Jesus... Thank you for sharing, Wyrmwood just dropped further in my estimation.

That is a form letter; I received the exact same thing verbatim in response to a concern that was only tangentially related to shipping. I was thinking about sending another email, but I guess they've just stopped giving af about customer support. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

[montenzi]

When I print decks in China, I ship decks from China to Germany (Deallez), ship EU decks locally. Profit... for backers.
Most of the time, all taxes are included in WJPC's shipping rates, so you only have to pay to ship decks to Germany. That's it.

It might be some $$$ for VAT/GST (based on a $1 invoice value, it's just 19% increase).

P.S. If you are having difficulty fixing a "plugin issue," consider using a third-party tool like http://pledgebox.com. It's free to import backers, and you will only pay 3% on upsells generated from this site.

[Evilgamer]

When I print decks in China, I ship decks from China to Germany (Deallez), ship EU decks locally. Profit... for backers.
Most of the time, all taxes are included in WJPC's shipping rates, so you only have to pay to ship decks to Germany. That's it.

It might be some $$$ for VAT/GST (based on a $1 invoice value, it's just 19% increase).

P.S. If you are having difficulty fixing a "plugin issue," consider using a third-party tool like http://pledgebox.com. It's free to import backers, and you will only pay 3% on upsells generated from this site.

They used to use backerkit, I think they decided even 3% might be too much when they had their own web site.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Just an update on production. Wjpc has been dragging their feet. Just as an example I ordered BeetleBacks prototypes (as I still haven’t decided which printer to go with) and although I was told 15-20 days delivery they are now 60 days late. Wyrmwood has grown impatient. They aren’t understanding that this is par for the course in the world of playing cards. Somehow they believe their in house sourcing person can do a better job with finding a printer. I’m not liking where this is headed. Their sourcing person does not know the first thing about cards manufacturers. I have recommended biting the bullet and returning to Cartamundi since we are now two months closer to Cartamundis estimated restart. Wyrmwood thinks having customers get their cards 1 year post campaign isn’t good. Again they are blissfully unaware of how this business works and have shown an unwillingness to trust my advice. Somehow Cartamundi’s suspension of playing cards production is being perceived as an avoidable issue and being somewhat blamed on me. Not sure what I can say. Very disappointing

What wyrmwood is going to find is that cards manufacturers are limited. Cartamundi is the best. Wjpc is 2nd. Taiwan prob third. USPCC has terrible foil and is expensive. Legends is ok. Epcc? Inconsistent. Noir? In Ukraine and not the best quality. Shuffled ink? I personally rank them last in handling.

[GandalfPC]

Sounds to me like they will choose Shuffled Ink or the like if they can - as your personal rank in handling is unlikely to be given due consideration…

[Evilgamer]

Just an update on production. Wjpc has been dragging their feet. Just as an example I ordered BeetleBacks prototypes (as I still haven’t decided which printer to go with) and although I was told 15-20 days delivery they are now 60 days late. Wyrmwood has grown impatient. They aren’t understanding that this is par for the course in the world of playing cards. Somehow they believe their in house sourcing person can do a better job with finding a printer. I’m not liking where this is headed. Their sourcing person does not know the first thing about cards manufacturers. I have recommended biting the bullet and returning to Cartamundi since we are now two months closer to Cartamundis estimated restart. Wyrmwood thinks having customers get their cards 1 year post campaign isn’t good. Again they are blissfully unaware of how this business works and have shown an unwillingness to trust my advice. Somehow Cartamundi’s suspension of playing cards production is being perceived as an avoidable issue and being somewhat blamed on me. Not sure what I can say. Very disappointing

What wyrmwood is going to find is that cards manufacturers are limited. Cartamundi is the best. Wjpc is 2nd. Taiwan prob third. USPCC has terrible foil and is expensive. Legends is ok. Epcc? Inconsistent. Noir? In Ukraine and not the best quality. Shuffled ink? I personally rank them last in handling.

Who did they use for the tarot deck? I know they were Chinese. This is probably why they have some level of confidence they can do it, because they did it already.

I know they were happy with it but I have no idea what the general reception of the cards was.

[Sir Toddalot]

This is disappointing to hear. I’m getting a more negative opinion of Wyrmwood the more I learn. I will be very disappointed if they decide to go with a printer other than WJPC or Cartimundi. I was fine with the change to WJPC because they announced it during the campaign. A change after would be very frustrating, I pledged a decent amount and they seem determined to refuse any refund requests. Their tarot decks looked good but handled terribly, so hopefully they don’t go with that printer. It just seems like bad business to ignore the advice of someone who knows more than you in a particular field, and to prefer a faster delivery over quality, within reason. I’m sorry to hear they’re partially blaming you, and for any grievances I’m sure this is causing you. I’ve bought several of their products before, and had hoped to get one of their modular tables someday, but I might look elsewhere now. I’ll be there for Corrupted, but then I’ll probably be done with this company.

[Disenchanted_11]

Somehow Cartamundi’s suspension of playing cards production is being perceived as an avoidable issue and being somewhat blamed on me.

I knew this would come up at some point. I knew from the very first time seeing those guys that they're the kind that will throw you under the bus when things went sour.

I think at this point they only care about the 2000+ backers who originally follow them without complain, and to hell with the small whiny card collector community that you brought in. I won't be surprised if they go with the worst handling printer because their cards are meant to be used in playing poker — inline with their gaming products.

This'll be a big blow to the card community.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Since learning that wyrmwood would be relying on their own sourcing department and they're insinuation that the delays on the deck printing are of somehow of my doing and my voicing my disapproval of the handling of international shipping/fulfillment I have noticed a significant reduction in communication in my direction from Wyrmwood. My texts go unanswered and phone conversations are short. Which is astonishing because as of this moment I am still the primary contact with Studio Pression, the metal and poker chip manufacturers.

As an aside, as a business owner there is no 'off hours'. I don't work 9-5. I worked when I am needed. Sometimes that's in the middle of the night when it's office hours in China or Europe. Sometimes its the weekends. I put nothing ahead of the quality of the work that bares my brand. I have never ever gotten that impression from wyrmwood. If it's 5:01pm I might as well wait until tomorrow.

[Evilgamer]

Here’s my dilemma I’m defintlely onboard with “don’t change the printer to someone we don’t like”. But I feel like if I or anyone else posts that in the ks threads it’s just going to increase the estrangement between ww and Omar. (And cause another crap storm probably).

Being upset over something being late because of production issues is “rich” for them to say considering that their main product the modular game table was YEARS behind on delivery. I’m not sure the original international orders are complete to this day. Or that they regularly set up their kickstarters to take a year or more for the last orders to ship

[GandalfPC]

I don’t think individuals voicing up there will impact Omar as much as to help get his point across. Nearest I can tell Omar isn’t looking to sit down to tea with them in the future anyway.

[PiazzaDelivery]

So sorry to hear about this Omar. I hope you know that for my part and hopefully for OUR part, we can see clearly whose fault is whose. I don't understand how Wyrmwood could reasonably blame you for something so utterly outside your control. You're the one that has successfully funded multiple playing card campaigns, while they're flying blind having never done so themselves. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

[rousselle]

Cartamundi is the best. Wjpc is 2nd. Taiwan prob third. USPCC has terrible foil and is expensive. Legends is ok. Epcc? Inconsistent. Noir? In Ukraine and not the best quality. Shuffled ink? I personally rank them last in handling.

Where would you put MPC in that list? Their premium finish (Beta, I think?) is actually quite good. I don't know what their pricing looks like at higher quantities, but I do think their best output holds its own against USPCC. Of course, I don't know if they have much to offer by way of foiling or metallic inks....

[Zzzzi]

In fact, there are three mainstream printers in China, Kspcc, Mpc, Wjpcc.

Generally we think that Kspcc is the best, MPC second, Wjpcc last, the main reason is that the quality of Wjpcc in the past few years is not good, although his quotation is the lowest among the three printers, but It’s cards nondurable and handling feel bad. The new process Kspcc and MPC develop very fast, wj is much slower, and wj has done some bad things in the past few years, leaving a bad impression on everyone.

Wj has been some progress this year,But stereotypes have made him unpopular in China.Most creators will choose Kspcc, and cardistry player will choose MPC because of their flexible printing.

ps.Kspcc and Kingstar are not exactly the same. Kingstar's head is one of Kspcc's shareholders, and Kspcc's equity is complex

[Evilgamer]

(double posting this since it crosses two subjects)
Card campaigns finally made their video, thought they get distracted trying to figure out how to sell tables to china but most of it is about not having the physical cards for corrupted (and some light shade towards WJPC), but they also address the shipping situation briefly. (their chair comment dates this discussion as having happen on the 10th)

[Strag]

Wow wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

So unprofessional and so clueless.

Needing to launch the Kickstarter in order to reach a certain cash position doesn't sound particularly reassuring, unrea the sort of things they talk about in these videos.

[Evilgamer]

Wow wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

So unprofessional and so clueless.

Needing to launch the Kickstarter in order to reach a certain cash position doesn't sound particularly reassuring, unrea the sort of things they talk about in these videos.

Doug (CEO with the cap and tie) has gone full corporate/profit maximization in the past few months, even the way he dresses, didnt used to be any ties or formal shirts.

Its starting to rub me the wrong way too. Those videos were always about whatever goofy thing they were doing that day(they make some good videos about giving a designer something to build and then just watching them figure it out, fail, fix it and come up with something you would want to buy), but there has been a lot of more serious stuff like taxes and production waste and my least favorite business concept...metrics for everything...(yesterday it was storing the $3m of inventory they cant ship because they aren't complete orders...see discussion about production delays).

[Harvonsgard]

It's all fun and giggles as a start-up but when it gets more serious and you have responsibilities towards your employees and customers someone has to get more serious and has to make CEO descisions.

[Evilgamer]

It's all fun and giggles as a start-up but when it gets more serious and you have responsibilities towards your employees and customers someone has to get more serious and has to make CEO descisions.

COrrect, but its all in the way you do it. He basically had a coup in the company (more like a worker revolt) in 2021(?) and resigned(didnt leave the company just stopped being CEO), but no one else would do the job (or liked doing it, they put the lead designer in the position...and suddenly nothing new was being designed...thats not good) so he's ended up doing it again now. But part of that was hiring people to be the adults, HR, tax accountants, more production control etc.

[Disenchanted_11]

It's all fun and giggles as a start-up but when it gets more serious and you have responsibilities towards your employees and customers someone has to get more serious and has to make CEO descisions.

And have to deal with problems out of they're control. To be fair, it sucks when things don't go the way it should be, and it's good that it's being reflected on their videos (because it surely ain't reflecting on their customer support/updates).

But compromising between kickstarter quality and projected year-end sales is just ugly. They're openly disregarding the spirit of crowdfunding. And to the point where Omar mentioned they're thinking of switching printers again.

[Eric Lee]

Man, that took awhile to catch up with how quickly things turned with this!

Does anyone else find the delicious symmetry with current events and the names of Wyrmwood, Groundskeeper and Corrupted?

TGW helped Wyrmwood break ground to start their playing cards line with a beautiful deck. But Wyrmwood failed miserably as the Groundskeeper, turning the experience bitter for many; exactly what their name in the Bible means.

Coming up next is the Corrupted deck. Perfect parallel to how this whole experience with seems to been corrupted from something exciting to something bitter.

On a more serious note, really sad for Omar and how this has played out. I agree with the earlier comment that it seems like they're still stuck in Startup mode and not fully transitioned to business mode.

Hopefully this fiasco doesn't tarnish the TGW brand and really does give Omar more fans for the TGW decks.

[PiazzaDelivery]

An email came through offering a $15 refund to those who had already paid. I still haven't put my order through, not sure I will, might just hold out for Corrupted. Still got a big credit on their website. Idk at this point, I'm just severely disappointed.

[laitostarr777]

They have replied, and I DO NOT like what they have to offer…

Somehow they think I am not satisfied with the shipping rates, and completely ignored about the “almost at the same price as the trio set” Duties and Tax.

$15 refund is NOT enough to heal this for me…

[Evilgamer]

thats kind of lazy, they should have refunded the actual difference or just canceled/reset those orders (though thats likely a lot of work) and then given the $15 extra for how long it took.

That doesnt even appear to address the import duties which also looked ...bad?

[Disenchanted_11]

Backer Bonus Item! We've hit some bumps with this campaign - from the manufacturer change to the website, there have been several hurdles, and we really appreciate you all bearing with us throughout our first foray (but not our last) into playing cards and poker. As a thank you, we're going to be adding a bonus item to every backer order of Groundskeeper items: a weighted, metal Card Guard, custom-made with Groundskeeper artwork and in a larger size than any of the three coins for sale in the project. We have received samples in several different finishes, and we'll be selecting one and placing the order soon. You can check out the different sample versions below!

Backer Bonus Card Guard Photos
The manufacturer sent us these samples. We're making a final determination on the finish, but the front-runners are the matte gunmetal and gloss black. Let us know what you think!

A closer view of the coins, front and back. Top to bottom, gunmetal, silver, gold & black


They're now going for a matte black version. It was also mentioned that Omar is behind this freebie idea (originally a stretchgoal item).

At the end of the day, these guys are just doing their jobs and are playing with the cards dealt to them. They gave their sincere apologies and are trying to make the overcharges right. I cannot speak for others, but I think I can now change my "How do you feel about this project so far?" from sad face to the happy one.

[Evilgamer]

here's the actual apology (and the longer update like they should have 100 decks today as the test run)

European backers have had a poor experience with this project, and I wanted to take a moment to apologize for that. Initially, our plan was to manufacture the cards in Europe, which would have made it easy to ship the cards to backers from within Europe, avoiding some of the more expensive shipping and fees usually involved. However, when manufacturing changed location, it greatly diminished the benefit of this plan, so we reverted to our typical approach of shipping out from the US. This led to higher than expected costs for European backers. In addition, the website had some errors with the plugin - Zonos - that calculated fees and taxes for international customers. We've been in contact with the plugin developer, as well as our representatives at UPS, and even put the two in contact, over the past several weeks to correct this issue. The good news is we believe we have done so - but it's been rocky, and difficult, and far short of the experience we want our backers to have. So again, for that, we sincerely apologize.

If you are an international backer, and your order total doesn't look right because of what seem to be excessive fees or taxes, please reach out and let us know. As stated, we believe things are accurate now, but we can certainly get in touch with Zonos, our partner, who can verify the figures on specific orders, if we provide them the necessary information.