The Groundskeeper by Wyrmwood (Produced by the Gentleman Wake, ill. Dan Greta)

[Disenchanted_11]

Hot take... I think that for the cost of the decks that the tax should be built into the price.

I think the discussion went sideways because of some extra "opinion", but this is a really valid point. When shopping anything on real life, they won't charge you extra VAT on the counter, it's always included into the list price. But hey, I don't know how other government works...

[GandalfPC]

Luxury brands cater to a different clientele, and they have their own price points. GW has made it clear that is where he wishes to be.

Thanks for explaining it. All makes sense now. You're the best

Fair enough - to each his point - I’m not the arbiter of truth after all.

[Evilgamer]

Hot take... I think that for the cost of the decks that the tax should be built into the price.

I think the discussion went sideways because of some extra "opinion", but this is a really valid point. When shopping anything on real life, they won't charge you extra VAT on the counter, it's always included into the list price. But hey, I don't know how other government works...

Actually there is a very large difference between European and US consumer mindset for that.

In the US tax is NEVER included until you pay(in fact its not legal for the company in some places at least to "pay the tax", it has to be charged at checkout) , if I go to Walmart or Pizza Hut or a gas station or American Airlines web site. I wont see the final price until I get to checkout.

Thats what we're used to. Thats why they sell things for $9.99 not $10.80 which is the real price with tax.

[Strag]

Moving to the UK from the US this was one of the things I appreciated most; tax being included in the price. What you see on the shelf is what you pay.

And don't get me started on tipping culture differences.

[Evilgamer]

Moving to the UK from the US this was one of the things I appreciaged most; tax being included in the price. What you see on the shelf is what you pay.

And don't get me started on tipping culture differences.

what would you like to tip the McDonalds clerk 18% 20% 22%.....

its gotten out of hand for sure.

[STLBluesNut]

When enough people refuse to buy a product the market shifts. Demand will dictate supply. Rule 1 of business.

i have been one of those that has been rather vocal in the past to TGW and about some of his products, pricing and reward structure. probably a little too aggressively at times. what can i say, i get in moods lol. i dont intend to rehash any of that here. the below opinion isnt necessarily directed at TGW specifically. just some thoughts in general.

i agree with the first sentence in the quote above. the second really stuck out when i read it though. in the playing card hobby, and other collectible hobbies as well, i am not sure this is true in many cases. "demand will dictate supply". i believe we see this all the time with artificial rarity and ''limited'' editions. it seems that demand does not dictate supply. it seems that demand is abused to produce fewer items and charge much much more than would normally be charged. i have been around long enough to understand that lower production quantities are generally more expensive to produce, however, i think an argument can be made in some cases to produce more to have a lower price and sell more to all those that want them. we have also seen in the past where someone will take an overrun of a deck, cram it into a different tuck, call it super limited and charge $200+ for a deck we all know was nowhere near that much to produce, it was overrun for heavens sake.

demand is also used to produce a number of items at a level intended to sell out immediately which leave the collectors to scramble or miss out and have to pay scalpers later. this one being less egregious imo but still goes to the point of demand not dictating the supply, often on purpose. it seems what happens here is that people have to sit at a computer and rapidly refresh and enter information at release time to try and snag an item before some scalper with a bot gets them all. part of this that bothers me is that the producer doesnt even make extra on it, the damn scalper does on ebay when they triple+ the price. the producer could have just upped the qty produced and sold more at the same price. the collector mind definitely has a part in this as well desiring ''limited'' editions of items. i do not care how many other people have something. it does not lessen my enjoyment of something whether 5 or 5000 others have the same item as me. it clearly does for some others though.

either way, i do not buy products that use these kind of tactics and i wish more would not. maybe we could see some of these practices stop.

[Evilgamer]

Finally looks like international backers can complete orders.

Going to be a non zero amount of angst about this but todays ks update answers why you have a $25 credit and the shipping is high.

[Disenchanted_11]

Finally looks like international backers can complete orders.

Going to be a non zero amount of angst about this but todays ks update answers why you have a $25 credit and the shipping is high.

Hey mate, I know you have lots of information on WW experience so maybe you can help me with this.

I noticed I can save on shipping if I wait for Corrupted and checkout both my orders at the same time. Will I be able to do it? I mean I know Groundskeeper is going up for preorders outside of the backers, but will it not disappear after this pledge manager timeline?

I will shoot them a message to confirm this as well.

[Evilgamer]

Finally looks like international backers can complete orders.

Going to be a non zero amount of angst about this but todays ks update answers why you have a $25 credit and the shipping is high.

Hey mate, I know you have lots of information on WW experience so maybe you can help me with this.

I noticed I can save on shipping if I wait for Corrupted and checkout both my orders at the same time. Will I be able to do it? I mean I know Groundskeeper is going up for preorders outside of the backers, but will it not disappear after this pledge manager timeline?

I will shoot them a message to confirm this as well.

This is unknown territory, and I doubt they considered that(though they are telling people to choose "no reward" if they want to get the corrupted poker chips instead) I dont think I would unless they say yes since they would be sitting on your greenskeeper deck until corrupted ships. I dont expect groundskeeper, at least the red/blue decks to go anywhere they will stay on the web site, if you wanted a green/clover deck or ESPECIALLY if you had a prism deck..its a risk. Im assuming you arent buying the $3k cabinet, I dont expect those to stick around, the poker chips...might?

Usually KS resulted in backer kit which usually would stick around awhile as a "preorder" link well into fulfillment that still went to backerkit which only listed the campaign items. Then it rolled over to the web site for SOME Of the things for example look at the dice page, there are a few categories, those are often remaining stock from a kickstarter. But you wont find any items from the previous version of their last KS, the GM screen/storage tower (again they just did a V2 of this KS that closed about a week ago so thats how their further orders are being generated, and they haven't quite finished the preorders from the first...like their furniture KS campaign this project is a "we need orders to have work for people to do so we want a years worth" campaign).

Looking at the comment so far on the KS page..man I hope WW got their VAT\duty tax calculations wrong because...man...thats a lot...though I see a lot of people who still think that WW was supposed to pay for all the tax and shipping.

[Drewser]

It's sad to see so many backers who are disappointed. The new wave of problems emerging from EU backers is astonishing. Disillusioned supporters who are facing phenomenal shipping and tax fees. Either useful idiots or corporate shills have been vocal in speaking up on the WW team's behalf, but in the end, the reassurance turned out to be of little consequence. Sorry that things have taken such a dive and things are imploding. What a way to run a campaign. Sorry guys, just my genuine piece of mind.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Hi all. I too am disappointed with how this has been run. It’s such a shame because Dan Greta (and Xia Hunt on currupted) have out in such great work on these decks. Not to mention all of the attention and love I have poured into these projects. I have voiced my displeasure to how things have been handled. And quite frankly I think the troubles lie with the team handling the website backend at wyrmwood not being able to properly code the site to handle the differentiating between us orders and orders fulfilled from abroad. They sunk so much time into trying to do this that it undermines the profitability of the project. There have been an incredible amount of inefficiencies with wyrmwood. I suppose you would expect that from a company where many different people do specific things. There’s a lot of silos and it frankly inhibits the smoothness. I suppose it’s easy for me to say since I usually do just about everything on a campaign myself apart from the actual design and the photography which Chris Moyer handles. The worst part is I know I could help grow wyrmwood’s playing cards division but if corrupted doesn’t do well—which with all the unhappy backers—I may not get the chance to continue to produce decks for them. At least we have one more to look forward to which is just gorgeous. And then the TGW and CAP decks which will 100% be tax and vat friendly for all backers.

[Evilgamer]

They've had issues with having the web site ready for major projects all year

I think Ive already told this story but...

last October they put their modular desk up on KS, as Picard said "pure F***ing hubris" after a day they had $2M in orders...but they set the funding goal for $3m..and because of the way they structured the campaign (and the staggering cost of the desks) that wasn't going to happen, so they canceled the entire campaign a few days later rather than try to salvage (the average WW Kickstarter funds in the first 15min) it since they wanted 5000 sales, not 500.

A week or so later, they sold us the same desks via deposits for a production spot on their web site for a lower volume production plan with the promise that they would get us a configurator web site "soon", the earliest mention I can find in writing was 12/15/22 saying "early 2023" but I know that at one point it was "a few weeks"

Long story short I placed my final order on May17...after they had used the same site to do final orders for the 2023-2024 run of the KS project that keeps the lights on in PA, the modular game tables, and May also incidentally is about when the first desks were initially supposed to ship. As of 10/1 we're still at least 6 weeks from that happening, they'd didn't even start production design until May. (and let throw something out there, I eventually asked for my money back and was told no).

So no Im not a blind shill for WW, Ive just been around awhile. Also the US shipping for the desk is $500, they have competitors who sell solid wood desks for half the price with free shipping.

So when I say that some backers are expecting too much, factor that in, but also damn..I dont see how a $60 card order can have $60 in taxes and duties.

[Drewser]

They've had issues with having the web site ready for major projects all year

I think Ive already told this story but...

last October they put their modular desk up on KS, as Picard said "pure F***ing hubris" after a day they had $2M in orders...but they set the funding goal for $3m..and because of the way they structured the campaign (and the staggering cost of the desks) that wasn't going to happen, so they canceled the entire campaign a few days later rather than try to salvage (the average WW Kickstarter funds in the first 15min) it since they wanted 5000 sales, not 500.

A week or so later, they sold us the same desks via deposits for a production spot on their web site for a lower volume production plan with the promise that they would get us a configurator web site "soon", the earliest mention I can find in writing was 12/15/22 saying "early 2023" but I know that at one point it was "a few weeks"

Long story short I placed my final order on May17...after they had used the same site to do final orders for the 2023-2024 run of the KS project that keeps the lights on in PA, the modular game tables, and May also incidentally is about when the first desks were initially supposed to ship. As of 10/1 we're still at least 6 weeks from that happening, they'd didn't even start production design until May. (and let throw something out there, I eventually asked for my money back and was told no).

So no Im not a blind shill for WW, Ive just been around awhile. Also the US shipping for the desk is $500, they have competitors who sell solid wood desks for half the price with free shipping.

So when I say that some backers are expecting too much, factor that in, but also damn..I dont see how a $60 card order can have $60 in taxes and duties.

Although you are a self proclaimed apologist, the negative descriptive was better suited for a few other people I have in mind. When people make excuses for the company or in some cases respond rudely to others opinions or concerns then that shows which side of the fence people are on and it's not the side of their fellow collectors

[laitostarr777]

I just received my pledge survey... and.... I AM VERY DISSAPOINTED

Shipping is already a killer (similar to KWPs), and then the TAX AND DUTY that is almost same amount as the trio decks.... THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!

I like what you have done for the decks, Wake... but this.... is just....

[Adamthinks]

I just received my pledge survey... and.... I AM VERY DISSAPOINTED
WTF.png
Shipping is already a killer, and then the TAX AND DUTY that is almost same amount as the trio decks.... THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!

Holy crap, that is an absurd amount!

[laitostarr777]

I just received my pledge survey... and.... I AM VERY DISSAPOINTED
WTF.png
Shipping is already a killer, and then the TAX AND DUTY that is almost same amount as the trio decks.... THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!

Holy crap, that is an absurd amount!

I know right?! I feel SO MUCH BETTER for dropping out the Prism deck. I would imagine the worse if it still in the cart...

[TheGentlemanWake]

I’m embarrassed. I don’t know what to say.

On top of all of this, I’m saying good bye to my kitty Shakespeare tomorrow. He’s been very Ill for the last couple of months. And it’s time. feels good to know that he will always live on in the Parlour deck.

[hsbc]

Shipping is already a killer (similar to KWPs), and then the TAX AND DUTY that is almost same amount as the trio decks.... THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!

Do creators have any say at all about this sort of thing? Aren't they just following laws and regulations? Years ago I sent a birthday package to a friend in France and they had to pay ~$50 just for them to hand it over

Moving to the UK from the US this was one of the things I appreciated most; tax being included in the price. What you see on the shelf is what you pay.

To be clear, this is because in the US, states, cities, and counties can each levy their own sales tax

Here's just Georgia:

[Drewser]

I’m embarrassed. I don’t know what to say.

On top of all of this, I’m saying good bye to my kitty Shakespeare tomorrow. He’s been very Ill for the last couple of months. And it’s time. feels good to know that he will always live on in the Parlour deck.

That really sucks. I'm sorry for your loss. I know your pain all too well as I have loved and lost many pets in my life...but...
It seems inappropriate to me that while people are having a campaign crisis that you would redirect conversation by talking about your personal problems or your decks. Once again, I'm sorry for Shakespeare and you but this is not the time to mention it.

[rousselle]

I'm sorry for your loss, Omar.

As for the obscene taxes and shipping charges, I'll remind anyone who has forgotten that His Gentlemanliness is not fulfilling this project, Wyrmwood is. That doesn't take the sting out of anything, I'm simply reminding y'all that if you feel burned, the Wyrms are the folks to talk to about it. IMHO. YMMV.

[Drewser]

I'm sorry for your loss, Omar.

As for the obscene taxes and shipping charges, I'll remind anyone who has forgotten that His Gentlemanliness is not fulfilling this project, Wyrmwood is. That doesn't take the sting out of anything, I'm simply reminding y'all that if you feel burned, the Wyrms are the folks to talk to about it. IMHO. YMMV.

Imho, his name is attached to it. He did plenty of promotions for it and spoke on their behalf. He has made himself an intricate part of the project therefore he has to take some of the responsibility.

[TheGentlemanWake]

I promoted the deck and campaign because it was part of our business deal. I was obligated to. I also felt compelled to share the amazing work the design team did. I am proud of the beautiful deck we created.The eu friendly shipping was something I stipulated and they agreed to do. It’s only after they struggled to implement it and changed it without consulting me that it became a problem. I’m been an advocate for the backers through this entire campaign.

And maybe you are right that I shouldn’t have brought up Shakespeare. But I was in my feelings and was looking for solidarity. It’s been weighing on me heavily and it’s affected how present I’ve been this week with checking in on the campaign. It’s only because of that that I thought it relevant. In the end it’s unlikely that my checking in would’ve resulted in much. I’m not really involved with anything since the Groundkeeper closed. Been focused on getting corrupted out.

[manu]

I'm sorry for your loss, Omar. As a cat owner I know how they can be such big of a part of our lives and hearts. I don't think for a second you brought it up to redirect the conversation, I think that's a somewhat insensitive suggestion. I hope you are able to grieve and cherish the memories you have with Shakespeare.

That aside, the situation with the campaign really sucks. I hope Wyrmwood is able to find a solution. I know that if I were faced with those fees, I'd be tempted to cancel my pledge and hope the decks show up on third-party retailers.

[Drewser]

I promoted the deck and campaign because it was part of our business deal. I was obligated to. I also felt compelled to share the amazing work the design team did. I am proud of the beautiful deck we created.The eu friendly shipping was something I stipulated and they agreed to do. It’s only after they struggled to implement it and changed it without consulting me that it became a problem. I’m been an advocate for the backers through this entire campaign.

And maybe you are right that I shouldn’t have brought up Shakespeare. But I was in my feelings and was looking for solidarity. It’s been weighing on me heavily and it’s affected how present I’ve been this week with checking in on the campaign. It’s only because of that that I thought it relevant. In the end it’s unlikely that my checking in would’ve resulted in much. I’m not really involved with anything since the Groundkeeper closed. Been focused on getting corrupted out.

I can appreciate your account of reasoning or motivations behind your comment. I can also perceive it in a different light. One where you try to change the subject and garner sympathy for your cat while attempting to distance yourself from groundskeeper and maintain credibility by mentioning your parlour deck. Sorry if my honest opinion is not favourable. Your explanation is well said as it offers an exculpatory narrative. Hopefully something can still be done to mitigate the damage done by groundskeeper. I wish good luck to you and the future of TGW. Your fans will be supportive, I'm sure of it.

[Drewser]

I'm sorry for your loss, Omar. As a cat owner I know how they can be such big of a part of our lives and hearts. I don't think for a second you brought it up to redirect the conversation, I think that's a somewhat insensitive suggestion. I hope you are able to grieve and cherish the memories you have with Shakespeare.

That aside, the situation with the campaign really sucks. I hope Wyrmwood is able to find a solution. I know that if I were faced with those fees, I'd be tempted to cancel my pledge and hope the decks show up on third-party retailers.

There was definitely some sensitive, heartfelt content as well as a harsh truth opinion that you didn't agree with. You can be as sensitive or as insensitive as you like. I'm sorry it offended your good sense. Your allegiance displays a certain naivety imo but also has a certain commendable quality. Trying to reinforce 'solodarity' by talking about a dying loved one seems to be manipulative and to do it while the ks backers are experiencing big problems.... That is insensitive.

[GandalfPC]

at least that “seems” insensitive if one thinks the action “seemed” manipulative

[Adamthinks]

I'm sorry for your loss, Omar. As a cat owner I know how they can be such big of a part of our lives and hearts. I don't think for a second you brought it up to redirect the conversation, I think that's a somewhat insensitive suggestion. I hope you are able to grieve and cherish the memories you have with Shakespeare.

That aside, the situation with the campaign really sucks. I hope Wyrmwood is able to find a solution. I know that if I were faced with those fees, I'd be tempted to cancel my pledge and hope the decks show up on third-party retailers.

There was definitely some sensitive, heartfelt content as well as a harsh truth opinion that you didn't agree with. You can be as sensitive or as insensitive as you like. I'm sorry it offended your good sense. Your allegiance displays a certain naivety imo but also has a certain commendable quality. Trying to reinforce 'solodarity' by talking about a dying loved one seems to be manipulative and to do it while the ks backers are experiencing big problems.... That is insensitive.

Dude, you need to chill the hell out. You've been consistently negative and insensitive ever since you started posting on this forum. It's entirely unnecessary. You might think your negativity is a way of avoiding naivete, but it's not. It's just an excuse for you to be rude.

[Drewser]

I'm sorry for your loss, Omar. As a cat owner I know how they can be such big of a part of our lives and hearts. I don't think for a second you brought it up to redirect the conversation, I think that's a somewhat insensitive suggestion. I hope you are able to grieve and cherish the memories you have with Shakespeare.

That aside, the situation with the campaign really sucks. I hope Wyrmwood is able to find a solution. I know that if I were faced with those fees, I'd be tempted to cancel my pledge and hope the decks show up on third-party retailers.

There was definitely some sensitive, heartfelt content as well as a harsh truth opinion that you didn't agree with. You can be as sensitive or as insensitive as you like. I'm sorry it offended your good sense. Your allegiance displays a certain naivety imo but also has a certain commendable quality. Trying to reinforce 'solodarity' by talking about a dying loved one seems to be manipulative and to do it while the ks backers are experiencing big problems.... That is insensitive.

Dude, you need to chill the hell out. You've been consistently negative and insensitive ever since you started posting on this forum. It's entirely unnecessary. You might think your negativity is a way of avoiding naivete, but it's not. It's just an excuse for you to be rude.

Haha I do not need to 'chill the hell out' rofl if you have some sort of authority to speak to anyone the way you like then so do I. I don't care for your soy boy, boot licking attitude as if you're a righteous superior. Your accusations of me always being negative are unfounded and asinine. I have plenty of praise for the times when it is deserved. This is not one of those times. Keep your false, negative beliefs to yourself.

[Drewser]

at least that “seems” insensitive if one thinks the action “seemed” manipulative

If he can think I'm being insensitive and formulate his opinion around that then I can think it's manipulative and come to conclusions that support it. We are all entitled to our opinions..... at least.

[Drewser]

I love the try-hard, die-hards that feel the need to speak for playing card creators especially when there has been a wrong doing and the people involved have acknowledged it.