The Groundskeeper by Wyrmwood (Produced by the Gentleman Wake, ill. Dan Greta)

[TheGentlemanWake]

Hi all. I woke up to a few comments on Kickstarter regarding unhappy backers. Unfortunately my involvement with the product ceases at production. I have no overt influence or control over how Wyrmwood manages their pledges other than voicing my disapproval and trying to get answers. Which I will do.

[TheGentlemanWake]

From doing my own research this morning sales tax is required to be collected if sales meet a certain threshold per state. Meaning it’s a case by case basis. This is why smaller campaigns don’t have the burden of charging sales tax. Larger entities and campaigns (I think Wywrmwood qualifies) are 100% required to charge sales tax. In fact moving forward this May up being the case for TGW too if circumstances arise. This isn’t a case of passing off a cost to the consumer. This is more a perception that KS are sales tax exempt which they aren’t. In the end the IRS has tightened the collection of sales taxes around internet based sales much more than the Wild West early days when no sales tax was collected at all. I remember the shift because it sucked.

[Evilgamer]

as I said before, sometimes WW cant get out of their own way (to success).

I didnt consider the tax was a new thing, but it was only about $8....does answer why my mental math wasn't really working out right.

I looked back, they didnt charge me for my $3k desktop deposit direct on the web site but I paid a good bit of tax when I finally configured it 6 months later, not sure if that was the full retail value (since that followed the groundskeeper model of that being a credit later...probably did).

As I said before, this is the first small KS they have done this on, hopefully they can improve before their current GM screen ends and they put that up (which is...this week I believe, and 100% tied to actually choosing what you want on the web site since the pledges are $10 and $50 and the actual things go up to about $500 each) and then corrupted.

From doing my own research this morning sales tax is required to be collected if sales meet a certain threshold per state. Meaning it’s a case by case basis. This is why smaller campaigns don’t have the burden of charging sales tax. Larger entities and campaigns (I think Wywrmwood qualifies) are 100% required to charge sales tax. In fact moving forward this May up being the case for TGW too if circumstances arise. This isn’t a case of passing off a cost to the consumer. This is more a perception that KS are sales tax exempt which they aren’t. In the end the IRS has tightened the collection of sales taxes around internet based sales much more than the Wild West early days when no sales tax was collected at all. I remember the shift because it sucked.

Maybe, but they have never done that when they used backerkit, even though WW still has the same "normal business sales" to those states that would push them over the criteria. I think peoples main issue is that they've never seen a KS (in the us at least) charge sales tax. (and apparently the shipping estimates were wrong, sometimes a lot)

Looking back I have a backer kit closed WW campaign (dice) from January for $300 where the tax was $0.

[PiazzaDelivery]

I didn’t back this deck but I have to say I’m worried. I am/was planning to back the corrupted but I already get raked over the coals for Canadian shipping. I don’t really want to stomach extra charges after the pledge has gone through.

Omar, any plans for adjustments before the launch of the corrupted?

Fellow Canuck, I'm typing this kind of bewildered as I look at the total amount I'm being asked to top-up. $15 shipping, $67.42 duties and taxes. All this for 3 decks.

HELLLLL NAW.

[Disenchanted_11]

Damn, $67.42 is a hike.

I'm not buying that this is due to the fact that KS is charging tax. What people are saying is that this will not be the case if the project is fulfilled on KS itself, and atleast they should've been made aware of the taxes when pledging, so they can back out if necessary.

This area right here:

What people are saying is happening is that because the pledge has been moved to the online store, it then becomes a purchase, instead of being treated as donation/pledge.

Not good at all.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Damn, $67.42 is a hike.

I'm not buying that this is due to the fact that KS is charging tax. What people are saying is that this will not be the case if the project is fulfilled on KS itself, and atleast they should've been made aware of the taxes when pledging, so they can back out if necessary.

This area right here:
Screenshot_20230924_065540_Chrome.jpg


What people are saying is happening is that because the pledge has been moved to the online store, it then becomes a purchase, instead of being treated as donation/pledge.

Not good at all.

I've been in contact with Wyrmwood. Trying to set up a meeting with the department in charge to get more info.

[Disenchanted_11]

I've been in contact with Wyrmwood. Trying to set up a meeting with the department in charge to get more info.

Thank you for putting your face out there! While the Wyrmwood guys seems to be turning a blind eye to the comments.

While to be fair this statement is written on all of the reward tiers, no one really took it seriously as they are not aware that the pledge will be made as purchase on the web store.

"After the campaign, our pledge manager will help you to purchase additional add-ons, determine shipping and taxes due, and confirm your order."

[Evilgamer]

To be fair on two regards.

Im seeing people say that there should be $0 extra charge, including shipping, even though I thought that was pretty clear that was going to happen. But this has always been the case with wyrmwood, which is probably a really large percentage of the greenskeeper backers. This is also VERY clear in another KS Im currently backing (Animal Instincts) that shipping will be charged WHEN THEY ARE READY TO SHIP NOT NOW

But when they have done that it has NEVER included tax, thats a new curveball, I certainly ignored it, but it only meant about $8 for me, not $80

Here is the bottom of the reply from backerkit for their January Dice KS

Add-ons $320.00
Shipping Total $14.00
Tax $0.00
Pledged on Kickstarter ($20.00)
Order Total $314.00

Pledge Summary

$0 REWARD
The Elemental Collection: Wave 1 - Pledge here to reserve your position for any item(s) in The Elemental Collection! The minimum pledge corresponds to the price of one Iridescent d20, but you're free to pledge as much as you like! You will select items and confirm your order details, including shipping, AFTER the campaign, in our pledge manager. See the campaign page and FAQ for full details. Backers that pledge to this reward should have their orders shipped out by May 31st, 2023.


-----

There's also a lot of "KS isnt a purchase/storefront" being thrown out, but there are a LOT of campaigns that are for shipping within a month or cards that were already being printed...WW is by far not the only ones using KS as purely a means to drive traffic for things that are already going to happen, not to fund their creation.....and KS darn well knows that.

[PaulF]

What a mess checking out! First they had the wrong case+decks loaded for me. I ordered Wenge and they had Cherrywood. I had to delete the Cherrywood and add the Wenge. Then they charged sales tax on the entire amount. I don't believe I have ever paid sales tax on a Kickstarter campaign that I'm aware of. Further, God help anyone that accidentally deletes the Prism decks. A disaster waiting for someone out there.

Also, be sure to fill out the address and shipping sections.

[Fenrir]

I didn’t back this deck but I have to say I’m worried. I am/was planning to back the corrupted but I already get raked over the coals for Canadian shipping. I don’t really want to stomach extra charges after the pledge has gone through.

Omar, any plans for adjustments before the launch of the corrupted?

Fellow Canuck, I'm typing this kind of bewildered as I look at the total amount I'm being asked to top-up. $15 shipping, $67.42 duties and taxes. All this for 3 decks.

HELLLLL NAW.

Woah….they are collecting duties? That would be a first I’ve heard of a US company doing that who wasn’t shipping via eBay global services or UPS/FedEx. I’m sure you are familiar with getting hit once it gets to customs in Canada. Sorry about the fees pizza. That’s nuts.

Thanks for looking into this Omar. Curious to see what comes out of this.

[Swiski66]

Can someone please explain to me what's going on with this? I only backed one single deck and was pre-charged for it. Is that all I need to do?
Wyrmwood sent a pledge manager email to everyone last week, asking to create an account. I didn't create an account with them...never did.
So coincidentally everyone in this thread is upset about shipping and taxes. What am I missing? Please explain briefly. Tx!

[kevork]

Can someone please explain to me what's going on with this? I only backed one single deck and was pre-charged for it. Is that all I need to do?
Wyrmwood sent a pledge manager email to everyone last week, asking to create an account. I didn't create an account with them...never did.
So coincidentally everyone in this thread is upset about shipping and taxes. What am I missing? Please explain briefly. Tx!

I pledged one deck as well. The green "luxury" one. I had to go on Wyrmwood's website following the email instructions to create an account that has a pre-added coupon code for the pledge amount. I clicked my cart and had to complete purchase through there. So with the $30 coupon code automatically applied, I had to pay $5 shipping + $2.85 tax. So now my 1 deck became $37.25...

[PiazzaDelivery]

Can someone please explain to me what's going on with this? I only backed one single deck and was pre-charged for it. Is that all I need to do?
Wyrmwood sent a pledge manager email to everyone last week, asking to create an account. I didn't create an account with them...never did.
So coincidentally everyone in this thread is upset about shipping and taxes. What am I missing? Please explain briefly. Tx!

Basically their pledge manager is their website. They sent you an email to create an account because that's how they're completing pledges and getting you on the books as a buyer of the cards. If you don't do so, well idk you'd probably have to get in touch, but you probably just won't get your order and have a credit worth however large your pledge is with Wyrmwood.

We're complaining because their campaign is structured in such a way that shipping is being charged afterwards and is pretty expensive. I take it many of us, like me, expected rates to be a little more in-line with a TGW project, but as Omar has made abundantly clear, he has nothing to do with that, he's design and production only on this one.

[Evilgamer]

Can someone please explain to me what's going on with this? I only backed one single deck and was pre-charged for it. Is that all I need to do?
Wyrmwood sent a pledge manager email to everyone last week, asking to create an account. I didn't create an account with them...never did.
So coincidentally everyone in this thread is upset about shipping and taxes. What am I missing? Please explain briefly. Tx!

Kevork kind of covered it, but you have to follow that link to finalize the order, this means

-create an account on the wyrmwood site if you dont have one then apply the coupon for your deck.
-confirm your shipping address
-pay for shipping and taxes.

your order will not ship if you dont do this.

wyrmwood has always done their KS campaigns this way, you can add things to your order in the pledge manager.

In the past they have used backer kit.as do a lot of projects, now they are using their own web site. But the end result is the same, you have to use the pledge manager and pay shipping if you want what was pledged.

(cant tell where you are but if you are outside the US/Canada you probably didnt receive the FINAL email with a link to your info since they were still working on eurofulfillment...I suspect thats going to be a bloodbath). In any case I think you have about 2 weeks to do it.

[PiazzaDelivery]

I didn’t back this deck but I have to say I’m worried. I am/was planning to back the corrupted but I already get raked over the coals for Canadian shipping. I don’t really want to stomach extra charges after the pledge has gone through.

Omar, any plans for adjustments before the launch of the corrupted?

Fellow Canuck, I'm typing this kind of bewildered as I look at the total amount I'm being asked to top-up. $15 shipping, $67.42 duties and taxes. All this for 3 decks.

HELLLLL NAW.

Woah….they are collecting duties? That would be a first I’ve heard of a US company doing that who wasn’t shipping via eBay global services or UPS/FedEx. I’m sure you are familiar with getting hit once it gets to customs in Canada. Sorry about the fees pizza. That’s nuts.

Thanks for looking into this Omar. Curious to see what comes out of this.

I've only ever had it happen to me when receiving larger orders internationally through UPS. I had FedEx "ASK" if I wanted to pay duties once, I said no, the dude gave me my package and just left lol. I wonder how that went down back at the office.

[Evilgamer]

I've only ever had it happen to me when receiving larger orders internationally through UPS. I had FedEx "ASK" if I wanted to pay duties once, I said no, the dude gave me my package and just left lol. I wonder how that went down back at the office.

That sounds like something I would do, Im a smart ass like that, "what credit card would you like to use" ...yours...they never laugh for some reason.

[vasta41]

In my opinion, the thing people have the most right to be pissed about here is the whole notion that kickstarter is not supposed to be a store. People backed and pledged for rewards assuming, like all other playing card deck campaigns, that would be the case. Wyrmwood is fulfilling this project through their web store, which in a way, is turning this campaign into something a kickstarter was not intended for.

[Evilgamer]

In my opinion, the thing people have the most right to be pissed about here is the whole notion that kickstarter is not supposed to be a store. People backed and pledged for rewards assuming, like all other playing card deck campaigns, that would be the case. Wyrmwood is fulfilling this project through their web store, which in a way, is turning this campaign into something a kickstarter was not intended for.

And I wish WW would stop using KS for exactly that reason. But they arent the only ones. There were 2 campaigns by the same reddit poster (cellart or something, the kthulu and Egyptian decks of recent weeks) is shipping in October, ARK I think we have established, has their white tiger decks sitting around waiting to ship. TWI is already printing incubo and that doesnt close until tomorrow morning.

They are deathly afraid they wont get traffic if they just put it on their web site, despite their VERY high social media presence.

And Ive been intentionally keeping this part out of the KS site discussions, but Omars recent experience KINDA supports their position, he put goldsmith up on his site and it..just didnt sell as well and now hes going back to KS.

WW HAS used KS for its intended purpose in the past. their pet project the MGT (modular table) they used the KS money to BUY AN ENTIRE COMPANY and $M of hardware and hire people. But when the original orders were getting close to fulfilled they went right back to KS to get this years orders and started fulfilling the first few months soon after. (this project also almost killed them I think it was 2 years behind on delivery at one point by which time their costs had changed badly)

But right now they have a campaign up for products they have already made and shipped 1000s of and the pledges are for $10 and $50 whereas the final items go up to I think $300 each, and the idea is you will buy several (3 panels, 2 panels and a dice tower, a tray a box and a pen etc).

[Swiski66]

Thanks for the information, gang!

If I didn't act on that "creating account", my order would have been lost in the shuffle and I would be out $20 on my single deck.

I thought the first email I got a few weeks back, when the campaign was fully backed and my card was being charged, was a done deal process.

But while I expected there to be tax and shipping, I wish it was all taken care of by Kickstarter like other decks I backed. Confusing process!

[Evilgamer]

Thanks for the information, gang!

If I didn't act on that "creating account", my order would have been lost in the shuffle and I would be out $20 on my single deck.

I thought the first email I got a few weeks back, when the campaign was fully backed and my card was being charged, was a done deal process.

But while I expected there to be tax and shipping, I wish it was all taken care of by Kickstarter like other decks I backed. Confusing process!

I had the opposite reaction to KS recently.

IM SO used to WW and other kickstarters where they use backer kit to actually complete the transaction (and you get nothing if you don't do it) that I was caught off guard by being "done" when KS charged my card.

[daddobrendt]

Hi all. I woke up to a few comments on Kickstarter regarding unhappy backers. Unfortunately my involvement with the product ceases at production. I have no overt influence or control over how Wyrmwood manages their pledges other than voicing my disapproval and trying to get answers. Which I will do.

Warning: butt-hurt old person rant coming.

Omar, I really like your brand and the projects you’ve done in the past, but I will completely disagree with you on the statement.
This project was too complicated for Kickstarter period.
What could’ve been a simple playing card project was in reality a monster of selling/shipping large custom made pieces in a space not suited to accurately capture those order details, taxes, and shipping costs.
Wyrmwood’s communication details are out of your control,sure. But, you had to say in the project management before signing on. I backed it because your name got me there, I liked the design and ultimately I didn’t pay attention to the the other add-ons or details, because for KS you shouldn’t have to.
Wormwood got the overwhelming benefit of collaboration with you and the people you brought to the campaign.
I don’t comment here much, or on Kickstarter ever. Of all the projects I’ve backed, this one really left a bad taste in my mouth if for no other reason than it wasn’t meant for the platform. Again, that’s on me for choosing to back it and not scrutinizing every detail.
However, it will make me wary and look much closer at projects you’ve attached your name to in the future.

[Drewser]

Hi all. I woke up to a few comments on Kickstarter regarding unhappy backers. Unfortunately my involvement with the product ceases at production. I have no overt influence or control over how Wyrmwood manages their pledges other than voicing my disapproval and trying to get answers. Which I will do.

Warning: butt-hurt old person rant coming.

Omar, I really like your brand and the projects you’ve done in the past, but I will completely disagree with you on the statement.
This project was too complicated for Kickstarter period.
What could’ve been a simple playing card project was in reality a monster of selling/shipping large custom made pieces in a space not suited to accurately capture those order details, taxes, and shipping costs.
Wyrmwood’s communication details are out of your control,sure. But, you had to say in the project management before signing on. I backed it because your name got me there, I liked the design and ultimately I didn’t pay attention to the the other add-ons or details, because for KS you shouldn’t have to.
Wormwood got the overwhelming benefit of collaboration with you and the people you brought to the campaign.
I don’t comment here much, or on Kickstarter ever. Of all the projects I’ve backed, this one really left a bad taste in my mouth if for no other reason than it wasn’t meant for the platform. Again, that’s on me for choosing to back it and not scrutinizing every detail.
However, it will make me wary and look much closer at projects you’ve attached your name to in the future.

If Ks and Patreon are not stores and do not guarantee rewards then how come taxes can be collected? Creators use them with the advantage of being a store except with no liability or obligation to fulfill.

[STLBluesNut]

If Ks and Patreon are not stores and do not guarantee rewards then how come taxes can be collected?

because governments tax pretty much anything they can get away with for any, or no, reason. the way i see it, wrongly perhaps, technically, on KS and Patreon one is pledging, possibly donating or gifting, without the legal requirement to receive a product. i think realistically, most are doing so in the understanding that they will receive a product of some sort. i know i do. technically, i am not buying a product but realistically i am.

buy
[bī]
VERB
buying (present participle)
obtain in exchange for payment:

i think the leap is made, or can be argued (likely in the case of a government), that in practice one is buying an item. so a tax is justified in their eyes. technicalities generally work out in favor of those with the power to write and enforce the laws. so the technicalities are used to protect KS when nothing is delivered, they still keep the money, and then by governments to get money off the top when really it should be used in favor of one or the other. in the end, we lose twice. at least we have the choice to just not use KS i guess.

[Drewser]

Thanks for the information, gang!

If I didn't act on that "creating account", my order would have been lost in the shuffle and I would be out $20 on my single deck.

I thought the first email I got a few weeks back, when the campaign was fully backed and my card was being charged, was a done deal process.

But while I expected there to be tax and shipping, I wish it was all taken care of by Kickstarter like other decks I backed. Confusing process!

I had the opposite reaction to KS recently.

IM SO used to WW and other kickstarters where they use backer kit to actually complete the transaction (and you get nothing if you don't do it) that I was caught off guard by being "done" when KS charged my card.

If we are long past the days of ks being a platform for supporting creators then how come they can use it as a store but supporters don't get the product assurance as if they were a store. Ks itself is the store that translates to its users. Why would anyone have to pay taxes associated from pledges using their platform without having any kind of buyer protection in place. I don't understand why a consumer would stand up for these ks practices and offer excuses for them.

[Evilgamer]

Thanks for the information, gang!

If I didn't act on that "creating account", my order would have been lost in the shuffle and I would be out $20 on my single deck.

I thought the first email I got a few weeks back, when the campaign was fully backed and my card was being charged, was a done deal process.

But while I expected there to be tax and shipping, I wish it was all taken care of by Kickstarter like other decks I backed. Confusing process!

I had the opposite reaction to KS recently.

IM SO used to WW and other kickstarters where they use backer kit to actually complete the transaction (and you get nothing if you don't do it) that I was caught off guard by being "done" when KS charged my card.

If we are long past the days of ks being a platform for supporting creators then how come they can use it as a store but supporters don't get the product assurance as if they were a store. Ks itself is the store that translates to its users. Why would anyone have to pay taxes associated from pledges using their platform without having any kind of buyer protection in place. I don't understand why a consumer would stand up for these ks practices and offer excuses for them.

I didnt make any excuse for them, I do support a business running itself however it wants yes, but I the case of taxes, technically they HAVE to charge taxes even if they are on of the few who does it. And I'll say it again
I wish WW would get off KS

but the answer to this

how come they can use it as a store but supporters don't get the product assurance as if they were a store.

Is basically "because they can". and "because KS lets them" in fact KS actually went to WW a few months back to convince them not to just use their own site instead, there's a video in the WW wyrmlife series about it. This was right after ww said they were going to end using is after “one more campaign”

[Adamthinks]

I didnt make any excuse for them, I do support a business running itself however it wants yes, but I the case of taxes, technically they HAVE to charge taxes even if they are on of the few who does it.

Technically it's a donation and taxes aren't a part of that. The fact that they turned the donation into a credit on their website changes that. If they had just used Kickstarter or backerkit taxes wouldn't be needed.

[Evilgamer]

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/taxes# ... ch%20state.

In general, in the US, funds raised on Kickstarter are considered income

This is likely to explained by some as “cost of business” but you also have this

Sales tax may also be applicable in certain cases depending on the local rules. A creator may have an obligation to register, collect, and remit sales taxes in the states in which the backers are located, depending on the dollar amount received and the number of transactions entered into with backers in each state

Backerkits guidance agrees and they even have an article on how to set it up.

https://help.backerkit.com/article/589- ... -tax-rules

Why did ww not charge tax on their backer kit campaigns? No idea but it could correspond with the company becoming less a fraternity with power tools over the last 2 years and more run like the corporation it is. Including two different accountants one dedicated to taxes.

[GandalfPC]

You don’t need to charge tax depending on where you are shipping, but someone needs to pay it - and you can build it into the price, in effect giving a discount equal to the sales tax.

from bard:

In the United States, the general rule is that the seller is required to collect and remit sales tax on taxable items sold online to customers in states where the seller has a physical presence, or "nexus." Nexus can be established in a number of ways, including having a physical store, warehouse, or office in the state; having employees who regularly travel to the state; or having a significant number of sales to customers in the state

Use tax can apply to a wide range of purchases, including:

Items purchased from out-of-state vendors
Items purchased online from vendors that do not collect sales tax
Items purchased tax-exempt but later used in a taxable manner
Individuals are responsible for calculating and remitting use tax to the state where they use, store, or consume the goods or services. However, many states have simplified use tax procedures for individuals, such as allowing them to file their use tax returns electronically or to pay their use tax through the state's income tax return.


I had a computer business decades back and remember the sales tax filings were frequent and stern.

[Disenchanted_11]

The fact that they turned the donation into a credit on their website changes that. If they had just used Kickstarter or backerkit taxes wouldn't be needed.

And to think that the reason they're using after-campaign tools is in hopes of getting additional orders...

[Drewser]

The fact that they turned the donation into a credit on their website changes that. If they had just used Kickstarter or backerkit taxes wouldn't be needed.

And to think that the reason they're using after-campaign tools is in hopes of getting additional orders...

It is my understanding that the coupon given was transferable to any products on their website and not just limited to the ks decks or accessories. Imo that completely undermines the purpose of ks.