Horsemen - Kickstarter 1st June

[Timmargh]

Well, shit.

[bdawg923]

What's funny in these types of scam is how the victims couldn't believe in it.

When you say scam, do you mean he set out to scam people from the get-go? Just wondering. I keep seeing people calling it a scam, which I don't think it is. I think it's just a failed project due to his health, perhaps money mismanagement, whatever it may be. I don't think he set out to scam people. He commissioned an artist to design a deck. Did the artist draw 52 cards, jokers, multiple tuck boxes and never got paid? All an elaborate ruse to scam every backer? An established person in the playing card space with a shop that delivered a bunch of orders in the past? I'm not excusing the apparent lying about paying cartamundi. That may be due to money mismanagement, just panic, whatever. It's still wrong. But I don't think it was a scam. That's not what that word means.

[Disenchanted_11]

What's funny in these types of scam is how the victims couldn't believe in it.

When you say scam, do you mean he set out to scam people from the get-go? Just wondering. I keep seeing people calling it a scam, which I don't think it is. I think it's just a failed project due to his health, perhaps money mismanagement, whatever it may be. I don't think he set out to scam people. He commissioned an artist to design a deck. Did the artist draw 52 cards, jokers, multiple tuck boxes and never got paid? All an elaborate ruse to scam every backer? An established person in the playing card space with a shop that delivered a bunch of orders in the past? I'm not excusing the apparent lying about paying cartamundi. That may be due to money mismanagement, just panic, whatever. It's still wrong. But I don't think it was a scam. That's not what that word means.

It had to look believable, and it's meant to gain sympathy for the scammer. I stumbled upon a scam where the scammer even announced she have leukemia before the transaction, and that she's been hospitalized when the order tracking got messed up, and eventually "died" when the order was never received. It was all bullshit and we got our money back some other way. We aren't the only ones, it was a modus operandi. You'll never look at things the same way when you get to experience it.

The creator was caught with his pants down when he said the KS money was all paid to Cartamundi.

That's awful.

This type of elaborate scam had been gaining popularity lately. Elements of fake progress, stretching things out, hospitalization, radio silence, unknown sources giving fake updates, reassurances. I kinda don't get the point why, why rub the salt into the wounds. If you're gonna do a scam, just take the money and go, people will learn and move on.

[bdawg923]

So his running a legitimate business selling playing cards for years was all setup for this scam?

[Timmargh]

Like he said, the guy didn't owe you anything. What's funny in these types of scam is how the victims couldn't believe in it.

And some can't believe otherwise.

[Jocu]

What's funny in these types of scam is how the victims couldn't believe in it.

When you say scam, do you mean he set out to scam people from the get-go? Just wondering. I keep seeing people calling it a scam, which I don't think it is. I think it's just a failed project due to his health, perhaps money mismanagement, whatever it may be. I don't think he set out to scam people. He commissioned an artist to design a deck. Did the artist draw 52 cards, jokers, multiple tuck boxes and never got paid? All an elaborate ruse to scam every backer? An established person in the playing card space with a shop that delivered a bunch of orders in the past? I'm not excusing the apparent lying about paying cartamundi. That may be due to money mismanagement, just panic, whatever. It's still wrong. But I don't think it was a scam. That's not what that word means.

I’ve been lurking around these kind of threads as obviously mistrust in Kickstarter hurts everyone, and I thought I’d offer my 2c on this particular case.

I think words are important and I agree with Bdawg.

Scam is not the right word. Scam campaigns are the classic no printer, stolen or simple design on cheap mock-ups, vague text, low funding goal kind of campaigns that are clearly (although to many naive backers evidently not clearly enough) designed from the get go to separate people from their money with no intention of delivering. These campaigns are often but not often enough avoided like the plague.

Horsemen on the other hand is clearly a huge mess. But it’s clear that Tony never set out to ‘scam’ anyone and the distinction is important.

For what it’s worth I’ve seen the prototypes and materials ordered for the tucks. I’m aware of some of the conversations as I helped with initially translating some of them (we have a close relationship with Boschiero as you know) and we were very impressed at the technique eventually created to produce the effects mixing graphic and vector printing.

However this was all well over a year ago now, maybe two.

I’m aware of a long period of radio silence between them and won’t go into any more detail as it’s none of my business, but as with cartamundi I will say the last time I spoke to Paul about the project it wasn’t moving anywhere. Not officially, more that they had been waiting so long for the next stage that it was just not moving along.

As for Tony as others have said I have spoken to him numerous times in the past prior to the campaign. We discussed fulfilment rates and his hometown as I used to live in the same area. I know he had some family/health issues before the campaign that were slowing things down.

None of this of course is any excuse. Something has gone terribly wrong with the management of the campaign and funds. But it’s wrong to say Tony set out from the start to scam people, as the little work that has been undertaken so far and the effort gone into it would make no sense unless there was an intention to actually follow through.

So maybe this will be a Vanda situation and get resolved. Maybe not. On a personal level for Jocu I’m tired of seeing campaigns fund - and in many cases fund exceptionally well - and then come to nothing. Because for some reason regular creators then feel the effects of the damage these failed or scam campaigns cause.

I hope Tony’s ok, and there’s no excuse for what I’m sure was a white lie told in that update which has snowballed into where people are understandably accusing him of scamming. But I must admit it raised eyebrows when he spoke about Boschiero being due to deliver tucks and ‘not knowing what’s going on there’ because at the time I remember clearly that ‘what was going on’ was that they were waiting on Tony and not the other way round.

Anyway I hope it gets resolved. It would be a shame if first time creators get treated with so much suspicion because of things like this keeping happening, but a much greater shame if it continues having a detrimental effect on longstanding creators too or honestly the collecting side of the playing cards hobby is going to suffer massively over the next year or two.

[veil]

While I agree that this project was not a scam from the outset, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to sugarcoat what has transpired since then. If someone raises money on Kickstarter for a project, uses those funds for some other purpose, lies about it to the backers, and then disappears, I wouldn't call this "mismanagement" or "white lies"; I would call it fraud and fraudulent lies. Furthermore, it makes little difference to the backers of the project if it began with good intentions once those good intentions turned bad.

[Jocu]

While I agree that this project was not a scam from the outset, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to sugarcoat what has transpired since then. If someone raises money on Kickstarter for a project, uses those funds for some other purpose, lies about it to the backers, and then disappears, I wouldn't call this "mismanagement" or "white lies"; I would call it fraud and fraudulent lies. Furthermore, it makes little difference to the backers of the project if it began with good intentions once those good intentions turned bad.

If that’s all you got from my post then I can’t really help.

The fact is though he hasn’t disappeared, which is what makes this all a bit odd. He received the money two years ago and has been awol on and off for most of a year and a half.

If he’d simply done a runner with the money why would he bother to update just 4 months ago and then earlier in December?

Trust in Kickstarter is essential for creators who depend on it, so we also have a lot riding on projects like this financially as backers do. So I'm certainly not defending the situation.

But things aren’t always so black and white, and the fact that he still posts would suggest that despite the unacceptable delays the project may still eventually come through. Not that it changes anything - there’s nothing anyone can do except keep pestering and wait it out.

In an ideal world KS would be more stringent on first time creators but then none of us would have got anywhere if they were too strict. So if this turns people off Kickstarter so be it, something will have to change. But at the end of the day unfortunately that’s always the risk with Kickstarter and supporting a single person juggling the work usually reserved for companies of people. It’s crap, and trust needs to be earned back.

[veil]

While I agree that this project was not a scam from the outset, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to sugarcoat what has transpired since then. If someone raises money on Kickstarter for a project, uses those funds for some other purpose, lies about it to the backers, and then disappears, I wouldn't call this "mismanagement" or "white lies"; I would call it fraud and fraudulent lies. Furthermore, it makes little difference to the backers of the project if it began with good intentions once those good intentions turned bad.

If that’s all you got from my post then I can’t really help.

The fact is though he hasn’t disappeared, which is what makes this all a bit odd. He received the money two years ago and has been awol on and off for most of a year and a half.

If he’d simply done a runner with the money why would he bother to update just 4 months ago and then earlier in December?

Trust in Kickstarter is essential for creators who depend on it, so we also have a lot riding on projects like this financially as backers do. So I'm certainly not defending the situation.

But things aren’t always so black and white, and the fact that he still posts would suggest that despite the unacceptable delays the project may still eventually come through. Not that it changes anything - there’s nothing anyone can do except keep pestering and wait it out.

In an ideal world KS would be more stringent on first time creators but then none of us would have got anywhere if they were too strict. So if this turns people off Kickstarter so be it, something will have to change. But at the end of the day unfortunately that’s always the risk with Kickstarter and supporting a single person juggling the work usually reserved for companies of people. It’s crap, and trust needs to be earned back.

That wasn't all I got out of your lengthy post. I agreed that it wasn't a scam from the start and didn't disagree with much of what you said. I merely wanted to point out of few things, one of which is that lying to backers about how their money has been spent is not in any way a "white lie".

Secondly, after two years, it's no longer reasonable to assume that the project funds are still sitting in a bank account somewhere just waiting to be spent, especially since the December update claimed that Cartamundi had already been paid which we now know to be false, so this goes beyond a "management" issue.

Lastly, there have only been two updates in the last year, one of which was the fabrication from December, and the other one (from over four months ago) which was a mere two sentences and continued the lie about waiting on Cartamundi and B&N. The comment section of the project has now blown up thanks to Tyson and there is no response. If I were the creator of this project and the revelations were untrue, I would have responded immediately. Under these circumstances, it certainly isn't unreasonable to say that the creator has now disappeared. How this may affect backers' willingness to fund future projects is uncertain, but my comments are related to what has transpired with this project; they have nothing to do with other projects or Kickstarter in general.

[bdawg923]

Someone in the comments on the march update wrote that Tony not only paid the artist, but also paid for two additional decks (this person spoke to the artist). Tony will do anything to make this scam look more believable! /s

[veil]

I'm not entirely sure if above comment is related to any of my posts since I clearly stated that the project was not a scam from the outset. Some of the funds may have gone to some of the people involved in the project, but a significant amount of the money raised was surely to fund the printing of the backers' decks which hasn't happened and doesn't appear likely to happen given Cartamundi's comments.

[montenzi]

I first opened this thread in 2021 and noticed something was off. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it just doesn't seem right. For starters, Cartamundi requires full prepayment before they start printing decks, while WJPC only requires 30%. However, I don't believe even 30% has been paid to WJPC in this case. Printing usually takes one to two months, assuming there are no issues. Once the decks are printed, the artist has the right to receive hard proofs from the company. Before Cartamundi prints the decks (assuming payment is made), they will send a hard or digital proof. So, it's always best to request a screenshot of the files or any photos beforehand. Also, ask for a photo of the digital proof from WJPC and a photo of the finished product.

Quick tip: If you have not received those proofs within 3 months after Kickstarter funding, it is safe to request a chargeback from the bank. Don't wait!

I have just read all the updates since the project was funded and noticed red flags in every single one. If there are any issues, the project creators should communicate them to the backers instead of deceiving them. Otherwise, it's fraud. There are no exceptions. It's frustrating to see backers being misled.

Regarding a quote that said, "There were issues with the design that were corrected although printing didn't commence due to them waiting for the tucks from Boshiero. They have these and I am not sure why the project hasn't been completed. I have chased them today and I will update their response," it's simply not true. The printing of the decks and the availability of the tucks are not related. Cartamundi doesn't care about tucks and will print the decks regardless, even if they have to wait for tucks.

It's a shame to see this happening.

[Timmargh]

Someone in the comments on the march update wrote that Tony not only paid the artist, but also paid for two additional decks (this person spoke to the artist). Tony will do anything to make this scam look more believable! /s

He shared some of the artwork for his next deck with me last year sometime. And, after looking back through our conversation, he also showed me the tuck box proofs.

Not trying to prove anything, just saying.

[Disenchanted_11]

So his running a legitimate business selling playing cards for years was all setup for this scam?

Someone in the comments on the march update wrote that Tony not only paid the artist, but also paid for two additional decks (this person spoke to the artist). Tony will do anything to make this scam look more believable! /s

I guess what you're not understanding here is that it's not relevant when the scam started. It ended being one.

[bdawg923]

So his running a legitimate business selling playing cards for years was all setup for this scam?

Someone in the comments on the march update wrote that Tony not only paid the artist, but also paid for two additional decks (this person spoke to the artist). Tony will do anything to make this scam look more believable! /s

I guess what you're not understanding here is that it's not relevant when the scam started. It ended being one.

Again, there's a difference between a scam and a failed project. Words have meaning. If someone gets fired and can't get unemployment, they can't say they got laid off (in which case they can get unemployment). Because those are two different things. The end result is they don't have a job, but they're different situations. Scam and failed project are also different things.

@veil my comment was not directed at you.

Also edit: my example applies in the USA sorry if the non-americans were confused

[Harvonsgard]

Too early for a grim joke about this thread having more life in it than the project? Asking for ... a friend.

I can see why people are f**ked up about the campaign and the appearant lies regarding the production but why is this guy claiming Tony lied about his health? Just overreacting on that backers part or is there proof for that as well?

[bdawg923]

That guy is the kickstarter comments seems to be a giant drama queen. First time I seen someone question Tony's health issues is him and it came out of nowhere. He got an email from Cartamundi that the decks weren't paid for, and he jumped from that straight to "everything is a lie and a scam and he was never even sick."

[Harvonsgard]

Yah, that's what I sensed from the screen shot posted here prior as well but maybe I missed something.

[Disenchanted_11]

Again, there's a difference between a scam and a failed project. Words have meaning. If someone gets fired and can't get unemployment, they can't say they got laid off (in which case they can get unemployment). Because those are two different things. The end result is they don't have a job, but they're different situations. Scam and failed project are also different things.

So what's the difference between scam and estafa? Anything that involved lies and your money gone can be called scam nowadays. And please don't send a google definition.

What are the grounds for this to be called a "failed project"? Why did it failed, health problems? Death in the family? What does it have to do with the project? He never had a spare minute to pay Cartamundi and send the files? And what was his health problem anyway, cause it matters in this context, did he have a stroke? Is he bed-ridden? How is he providing updates then?

Like some people in-the-know with the industry said, things wouldn't have failed on the suppliers end.

So to summarize, it's being implicated that the money got used up somewhere else where it shouldn't have been, and then it's "sorry everyone, failed project". But you couldn't be informed about it so lies, fake updates, but don't call it a scam?

Let it go, mate. I know it doesn't feel good. Learn and move on.

[hsbc]

[Hey all, everything is okay so far, but still, let's cool it a bit in here...]

[Harvonsgard]

Let it go, mate. I know it doesn't feel good. Learn and move on.

The best advises are the ones you live by yourself.

If it helps you with coping, to call this project a scam feel free to do so. Here're just some guys that know the creator a tad more personal and have dealt with him on multiple business transactions that all went perfectly fine and therefore cut him some slack and conclude that a scam is more unlikely than otherwise. Not to mention that some love to have a greater picture before judging. Doesn't mean it couldn't be a scam. If it settles it for y'all let's call it a Schroedinger's scam (or Schroedinger's failed project), meow.

[bdawg923]

Again, there's a difference between a scam and a failed project. Words have meaning. If someone gets fired and can't get unemployment, they can't say they got laid off (in which case they can get unemployment). Because those are two different things. The end result is they don't have a job, but they're different situations. Scam and failed project are also different things.

So what's the difference between scam and estafa? Anything that involved lies and your money gone can be called scam nowadays. And please don't send a google definition.

What are the grounds for this to be called a "failed project"? Why did it failed, health problems? Death in the family? What does it have to do with the project? He never had a spare minute to pay Cartamundi and send the files? And what was his health problem anyway, cause it matters in this context, did he have a stroke? Is he bed-ridden? How is he providing updates then?

Like some people in-the-know with the industry said, things wouldn't have failed on the suppliers end.

So to summarize, it's being implicated that the money got used up somewhere else where it shouldn't have been, and then it's "sorry everyone, failed project". But you couldn't be informed about it so lies, fake updates, but don't call it a scam?

Let it go, mate. I know it doesn't feel good. Learn and move on.

It could have failed for a number of reasons. I don't know. Prices skyrocketed during covid, the entire world experienced some amount of inflation. The amount of money he collected may not have been enough to cover his projected costs from the beginning. Maybe he still has the money that was collected. I don't know. But you're assuming he spent it elsewhere without a shred of evidence. I also don't know what health problems he experienced but I believe I remember reading he was hospitalized for some amount of time. That's not a reason not to do the project in the long term, but short term yes if your health is failing to the point of hospitalization, the project may take a back seat. Again, not an excuse. Just what may have happened.

A scam is when someone goes into a project looking for defraud people out of money from the outset. Tony ran justplaycards for many years fulfilling orders. He didn't just pop up and do a Kickstarter with a fake deck he conjured up out of thin air or stole designs from somewhere like other true Kickstarter scams have done. He literally paid an artist for this deck, tucks and apparently multiple other decks. Please show me a scammer with his background in playing cards who ran a shop for years, who paid the artist for multiple decks he commissioned, just for people to discover it has been a scam and he had no intention of ever printing the cards. People literally have prototype decks. That's why it's not a scam. I guess at this point it may be semantics. His intentions to me were clear. He wanted to deliver these cards to his backers. A scam's intention is to get your money and disappear.

Where it failed I have no idea. For all I know he can still come back and fulfill the project. Stories was on hiatus for a long time with people calling it a scam before David reappeared and fulfilled everything. I agree with you it looks bad. We don't know where the money went, or if it even went anywhere. Maybe Tony still has it. I think it's terrible that he lied about it and I'm in no way excusing it. But calling it a scam is just wrong with everything people know about tony.

I get you're upset about it, as all the backers are. Nobody wanted to just throw money away for nothing. But I seriously don't get why you're so hell bent on calling it a scam.

[GandalfPC]

I think the bent hell simply comes from the question of misappropriation of funds and whether that alone makes it a scam.

I would say it depends on how you want to look at it - is it legally? Perhaps. Is it intentional, perhaps not.

Even many Ponzi schemes are not intentional - people who lie to themselves enough about being able to make things right and too sure of themselves to see it failing.

But yes, even if they meant to make good on what they thought was unavoidable or preferable it is technically, legally, scammy.

I just do not feel comfortable labeling the two groups with the same title when it comes to kickstarter, where you are dealing with individuals more than companies and the loneness, greenness and lack of business acumen can set people up to find themselves having spent funds to survive the week and found the money not there to replace it at the end of the month - then its in for a penny, in for a pound…


If kickstarter gave a darn perhaps they would have an escrow system to pay vendors instead of handing over a wad of cash.

[bdawg923]

[Harvonsgard]

Tony's ghost haunting the website with a login?
Or him accidentially opening the ks login tab on his browser while browsing p*****b on the Bahamas?

[Harvonsgard]

This is a reminder that I'm still worried about Tony, aka. Just Play Cards, and his health and disappearance. (Not that I needed a reminder.)

In that regard, did someone try to contact justplaycards? Is the shop still operating? Being the lazy ass I'm, I never tried after my usual way to contact Tony hit a dead end.

[bdawg923]

I've emailed them and Instagram chatted and no replies

[Timmargh]

This is a reminder that I'm still worried about Tony, aka. Just Play Cards, and his health and disappearance. (Not that I needed a reminder.)

In that regard, did someone try to contact justplaycards? Is the shop still operating? Being the lazy ass I'm, I never tried after my usual way to contact Tony hit a dead end.

I seem to recall that someone on Reddit did order from the shop and it was fulfilled, but I do know that at least his sister, if not more people, help with orders, too.

The first time Tony went into hospital unexpectedly his sister did message me via his Instagram account, but I have had no such contact since.

[hsbc]

Firstly let me apologise for the serious lack of communication for the project, Personal issues have delayed progression along with health, loss of a parent and finally loss of my home of 45 years.

The project at first started well with some issues still caused by covid but the start of the troubles with the war in the Ukraine, the artist being based in Russia had the artwork prints which due to the postal restrictions we can not get from her.

The mini cards were printed in China and the video of them in production was posted, the stickers and coins were made and delivered. When we received the mini cards the printing was poor and the cards were returned for reprint, after a few months the Chinese supplier would not reprint them without second payment which was made and the cards reworked and reprinted, they were sent and after a few months never arrived, I chased the supplier but started to get no response for tracking or delivery information. Subsequently months have passed and we have no cards to show so I can only deemed these as lost.

Slip cases were printed by the supplier and sent to Cartamundi for use once the cards were printed. We have had many problems with the artwork meaning Cartamundi could not print from it and I spent many weeks revising and changing the artwork to suit, but this coincided with my personal problems.

Mean while a number of backers took it upon themselves to start contacting and chasing Cartamundi and posting remarks and leaving reviews for which Cartamundi took personally.

In December we received a letter from Cartamundi saying they were upset that customers had been contacting them and we had been blaming them for printing issues, this was not the case and never had we blamed them. They would not print the cards and are cancelling the order with immediate effect. They also said that they were going to charge us for Admin, Storage and disposal or postage for the Tuck Boxes and would return the balance of the funds.

We have tried to source another supplier but due to the tuck boxes have 'Printed By Cartamundi' on them we could not use them unless this was removed. The tuck boxes were a large percentage of the printing cost.

All things considered with regret we can no longer proceed with this project, its been very disappointing with so many issues and set backs from the start, at the time of writing we have received the balance for the cartamundi account and are looking on how to return the prorata balance back to the backers. As with kickstarters own statement 9% of projects never come to completion and as hard as I tried we were not able to complete.

We are currently looking at returning around 33% of your original backing via paypal, I will post the email address to make a claim shortly, any funds not claimed for after the 3 month claim window will be sent to a local charity. At no point have I taken any money from this project but have spent 100's of hours trying to make it work. The Designer was paid in full.

[vasta41]

Great, money down the drain. I am officially never supporting a KS project by a rookie creator ever again. To hell with this.