The Goldsmith by Kevin Cantrell (Cantrell A Priori 001) with TGW

[laitostarr777]

The sets are $94.99 for the next week. Then prices go up to $99.99. That's a $20 discount over the life of the series. $380. And we are planning on some special gifts for customers of all 4 series per year.

Sadly, me being on the other side of the world - $20 discount for 4 sets doesn't make the difference for $108 shipping rates for 4 times shipping, each contains a set.

Well, that is the deal I have to handle, unfortunately

[kevork]

If I view this series as TheGentlemanWake brand creating a product line that establishes the brand further, then it makes more sense. People go to KWP, T11, Jocu, etc. with a specific expectation. The same could be said if someone went to TGW.com down the road as a current or future collector, and buy some of his works that way. I do have my qualms about the $100 paywall, but this is the reality we live in and at the end of the day, we speak with our wallets, if we're even capable of considering such a purchase.

[shkorc]

Shipping to EU and VAT is a killer... whyyyyyy???

[Harvonsgard]

... I like you both but this seems so untrue.

Keep in mind that value is a pretty subjective term. So I absolutely understand why you feel my snipe being untrue.
I have some TXI decks of the past and I have no problem to remind people that TXI was at the forefront and amongst the pioneers of custom playing cards and they earned their spot rightfully. However, I live in the present and I'm not one of the guys who gives credits for past achievements. I gave then my money in the past so I call it quits in that regard. Nowadays they are painstakingly stagnant and boring. Same as e.g. Riffle Shuffle (aka Card Mafia) and other formula baking companies. I know - fans of the franchises they do decks for will disagree but I'm no fan of any particular franchise so .
Value for me is craftsmanship, artistry, all that stuff that is mostly (but not necessarily) contrary to mass produced stuff.
That's why I'm btw. still very critical towards TGW decks and don't own any, because at the end of the day the decks are still "just" Cartamundi cold foil decks - which just don't impress me much. And I'm perfectly fine with anyone disagreeing whit that .

[STLBluesNut]

If I view this series as TheGentlemanWake brand creating a product line that establishes the brand further, then it makes more sense.

What about my time in cultivating relationships, building a brand, creating an audience and follower base, running budgets, establishing production partners and building and running a website? ... Surely you MUST understand that the value of a product is NOT only the cost of the materials involved right?

I hope people will look at it as supporting a brand that they hope will be around for a foreseeable future.

speaking for myself, perhaps others, the issue isnt supporting a brand or that you are growing a brand. the issue is that brand seems to be bent on gating decks of cards, which is what most of us are in the hobby for, behind high priced extra items. extra items that cause you to have all of this extra time and whatnot in ''running budgets, establishing production partners'' etc. that is all self inflicted and then passed onto the consumer who may just want to buy the decks but we cant because you have to factor in all of these extra costs across the whole range of items. you dont, or cant, offer just the decks at what just the decks cost because you need to cover all of these extra costs and time. if you just produced decks, then all of this extra stuff you wouldnt even have to do and then justify passing on costs.

this has all been said before multiple times by multiple people. you have a vision and you stick with it come hell or high water. admirable in a way. as you have put it elsewhere, we are only a few of the little voices here. personally, i purchase products and items, not brands. in many cases, the brand actually deters me from buying the products because they price themselves out.

seems like i didnt do all the quotes right but i am not redoing it lol. this is the most clunky quoting system around.

[Sir Toddalot]

this has all been said before multiple times by multiple people.

Then do we really have to keep saying it?

[Fenrir]

... I like you both but this seems so untrue.

Keep in mind that value is a pretty subjective term. So I absolutely understand why you feel my snipe being untrue.
I have some TXI decks of the past and I have no problem to remind people that TXI was at the forefront and amongst the pioneers of custom playing cards and they earned their spot rightfully. However, I live in the present and I'm not one of the guys who gives credits for past achievements. I gave then my money in the past so I call it quits in that regard. Nowadays they are painstakingly stagnant and boring. Same as e.g. Riffle Shuffle (aka Card Mafia) and other formula baking companies. I know - fans of the franchises they do decks for will disagree but I'm no fan of any particular franchise so .
Value for me is craftsmanship, artistry, all that stuff that is mostly (but not necessarily) contrary to mass produced stuff.
That's why I'm btw. still very critical towards TGW decks and don't own any, because at the end of the day the decks are still "just" Cartamundi cold foil decks - which just don't impress me much. And I'm perfectly fine with anyone disagreeing whit that .

Very fair and I did mention subjectivity in my post as well. I fully understand where you are coming from and I am not in that much of a different mindset. We agree on most things.

[STLBluesNut]

this has all been said before multiple times by multiple people.

Then do we really have to keep saying it?

but that was in a different thread lol. there are a lot of comments and topics covered multiple times on any forum, group, subreddit etc. human nature i suppose to keep voicing the same opinion even though it has been said before but in the context of a new/different discussion. i know i am guilty obviously.

[shkorc]

Due to the limited quantity and for simplicity's sake, we will be fulfilling from Texas (Gambler's Warehouse) only.

Omar, is there any chance of you reconsidering using a EU based fulfilment center?

Don't know what's the cost with for example Jocu, but they have been a perfect experience so far.

Keeping fingers crossed, it's possible

[Adonael]

The value has never been in doubt by anyone with the slightest clue or any attention paid to KS projects etc, which I do because the aussie dollar means every price is 50% higher for me. The favourable comparison to well known patreons and subscriptions (of which I personally support Oath/S17/TWI/Jocu) is also valid. Two decks foiled back & front, gilded, wood display case with custom coin, very nice 100% custom artwork/design. It's almost a damn bargain. I can't believe it has to be said (ok maybe I can, it's UC) but creating/producing decks isn't a charity. Shipping is a killer though.

The only valid sticking point is being forced into the whole pair/display with no other option regardless of the fair price for what you get, but that's the vision and the intent and either you accept it or you don't buy it, easy as that. There's a lot of FOMO in collecting, don't let it rule you, as much as I wanted to love the Successor because it's a TGW project I just really didn't and never did even from the first previews of the artwork so in the end I didn't back despite being prepared to go all in, the only thing that made me deliberate on it was the FOMO. This was an easy choice to purchase by comparison. It shouldn't be expected to sell quickly or sell out either, as has been said TGW is new/growing, if anything it would be a good thing to have it stick around and be available for a while, even multiple CAPs being in stock over time, so someone jumping in has somewhere to start without automatically being late to the party. Wouldn't it be nice for example if every other deck on Oath didn't 'blink and you'll miss it' sell out? I sure think it would.

[laitostarr777]

Could agree more on your words, Adonael

At first, I was about to skip this: due to the forcing of the walnut case, although what choices do I have in order to see these decks. With this CAP series, I am sure Kevin Cantrell is increasing his playing cards design portfolio.

As of now, its 791 sets remaining for grab, and it is OKAY!
If one changes their mind later, and decided to grab the finished one, it is gotta be there RATHER than on eBay under the mercy of stoners.

Will late joiners still eligible to go for that CAP yearly prize?

[STLBluesNut]

At first, I was about to skip this: due to the forcing of the walnut case, although what choices do I have in order to see these decks.

the choice you have is to not buy them and look at pictures posted here when you want to see them. look, i am not, in any way advocating for some kind of boycott here but this sort of mentality is how situations get to where they are. not just with this deck. not just with playing cards. folks just say i dont like it ''although what choices do I have'' and purchase or support whatever product or practice it is anyway. this just encourages more of the same behavior. whether it be buying a particular product, supporting a particular business model or paying ridiculous prices from scalpers on ebay.

disclaimer: the following is a recent popular example not meant to start any kind of crap and i will not respond to questions, etc about it.

AB recently made particular marketing decisions with one of their products. there was a large segment of their consumer base that did not care for this. the ramifications rippled nationwide, if not world wide to an extent. AB sales from what i have seen are down 25%+ and their market value has dropped billions because people have spoken with their wallet. as they dug in, it only got worse until they had to take action. it appears the same fate is about to befall another large retail chain. they have already made changes by removing and moving certain products. is this going to put either of these companies out of business? not likely but it has caused them to rethink some things for sure and make some changes. many feel particularly burned by these 2 examples and these companies may, or may not, fully recover to where they were. either way, they effected change.

all of this to say that there is power in purchasing, or not purchasing. the only reason products or practices stay in the market is because people are buying. when it comes to consumer goods, especially goods that are not necessities, you always have a choice.

[laitostarr777]

IF there WAS a choice between just the decks of Goldsmith VS The Goldsmith as a set, I would choose the former. But the problem is, there is NO that former option.

Yes, we do have a choice - although if it’s only one option because the other option is not there, then that IS the choice.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Ultimately the wood case and coin were the vision for the set. That is what it is. And it's not changing. But let's say just for arguments sake; that the price of the two deck set was $85 how would that sit? No Case. No Coin. Maybe a slight reduction in shipping costs due to the package weighing less by about half. To me it would feel like less value. Because it is.

The set is currently discounted to $95... so even at $47.50 each, the Goldsmith is cheaper than the $65 similarly featured Successor Dynastinae or $80 Monarch White (which does include the metal plated sleeve). I don't understand the attachment to the wood case as if it's going to somehow reduce the price by $30.... spoiler it wouldn't. The case is practically a throw in. As is the coin. An effort to give the customer more value. The expensive items here to produce are the Cards. Not just because of production costs but also because of kevin's time and energy to create them. No carat case and coin, guess what... that's less logistical work for me. I don't have to ask Kevin to design a coin, nor get a sculptor to convert it into 3D, nor find a vendor to make it. Same with the Carat case. The Case and Coin is NOT padding our bottom line. It actually probably hurting it or at best a wash.

[Swiski66]

Would you consider this a "produce-on-demand" item, or are 1000 units already in production? In other words, if you only get a specific amount of pre-orders for this by a set date, will the final production number be less than 1000? I only ask because I hope there is some reassurance or reward for day 1 pre-ordering customers such as myself. I'd hate to see this set discounted at half off one day because of people waiting or delaying to order it. The same thing happens to Star Wars toys, which I also collect. The pre-order date from online stores has a set price, but then collectors wait a year later and then buy it at a discounted. I don't want to keep falling into the trap of being the sap who pays full price for something when others get the item later on clearance.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Would you consider this a "produce-on-demand" item, or are 1000 units already in production? In other words, if you only get a specific amount of pre-orders for this by a set date, will the final production number be less than 1000? I only ask because I hope there is some reassurance or reward for day 1 pre-ordering customers such as myself. I'd hate to see this set discounted at half off one day because of people waiting or delaying to order it. The same thing happens to Star Wars toys, which I also collect. The pre-order date from online stores has a set price, but then collectors wait a year later and then buy it at a discounted. I don't want to keep falling into the trap of being the sap who pays full price for something when others get the item later on clearance.

The 1000 unit limit is set. The price is set to go UP as soon as the introductory offer goes away. The base price will never be reduced. I can tell you that the BASE price of the set will not be eligible for discounts for ONE YEAR AFTER FULFILLMENT. So if the decks are delivered in November that means the EARLIEST these decks would even be eligible for discount would be Nov 2024, a YEAR after they were in your hand--AND THAT'S IF THEY HAVEN'T SOLD OUT BY THEN. Your value is protected.

[STLBluesNut]

me personally? $85 for these 2 decks? any 2 other decks pretty much? not a chance. i would encourage any designers to look at charmie dreams campaigns. great art. gilded and foiled. (going of memory here) sub $35. with box, coin and booklet about $45. these are not chinsy boxes or coins either. hell, even Ark campaigns and i still have not bought one of their sets. king star sets, some of them (i do have 2 of these). the mucha set that was on KS.

i have said in several posts that i do not buy box sets. i guess that is technically not true, but in general i do not. but i bought those. why? because the decks were reasonably priced, they were offered separate and the box set didnt add much to the cost. as a consumer and hobbyist, i can see that it is possible to have reasonably priced ''luxury'' items so i am not paying double+ whatever the explanation for the cost is. i dont care about the name or image of the brand. the name of the designer. the ''limited'' quantity. i think if one were to poll some of the buyers here, someone like charmie dreams has made a stellar reputation and brand for himself by offering, what i would consider luxury by the features they have, items at a great price. the last campaign had 1593 backers for over $170k. i guess 1/4 or 1/3 buying a product at 2x+ the price is good too.

i am not sure why i get so passionate in the TGW threads. i think it is because i love you, Omar. i really really want to support what you are doing but you make it so god damn hard to do so. if i didnt, i would probably just view a campaign/offering and just move on as with probably 90% of the stuff out there.

[TheGentlemanWake]

me personally? $85 for these 2 decks? any 2 other decks pretty much? not a chance. i would encourage any designers to look at charmie dreams campaigns. great art. gilded and foiled. (going of memory here) sub $35. with box, coin and booklet about $45. these are not chinsy boxes or coins either. hell, even Ark campaigns and i still have not bought one of their sets. king star sets, some of them (i do have 2 of these). the mucha set that was on KS.

i have said in several posts that i do not buy box sets. i guess that is technically not true, but in general i do not. but i bought those. why? because the decks were reasonably priced, they were offered separate and the box set didnt add much to the cost. as a consumer and hobbyist, i can see that it is possible to have reasonably priced ''luxury'' items so i am not paying double+ whatever the explanation for the cost is. i dont care about the name or image of the brand. the name of the designer. the ''limited'' quantity. i think if one were to poll some of the buyers here, someone like charmie dreams has made a stellar reputation and brand for himself by offering, what i would consider luxury by the features they have, items at a great price. the last campaign had 1593 backers for over $170k. i guess 1/4 or 1/3 buying a product at 2x+ the price is good too.

i am not sure why i get so passionate in the TGW threads. i think it is because i love you, Omar. i really really want to support what you are doing but you make it so god damn hard to do so. if i didnt, i would probably just view a campaign/offering and just move on as with probably 90% of the stuff out there.

Everytime I read that someone thinks a creator should charge less for a product it boils my blood. It's SO disrespectful to a producer to tell them what they should charge. If someone doesn't want to pay the price? Then they shouldn't. But NO ONE has the right to tell anyone else what their time or their products are worth. Even the market/economy is limited in it's ability to dictate that change. The only one who has the right to change that perception is the producer themselves.

The proudest i've ever felt about a product bearing my brand is the Sarcophagus. The elation and praise from collectors who have received theirs makes it beyond satisfying. That BOX SET was the vision from the beginning. Why can't folks understand that boxsets aren't all about 'gatekeeping' or paywalls.

And you can say, STLBluesNut, that all you WANT is to support me... but the proof is in the pudding. What you ACTUALLY want is for me to capitulate and devalue my brand to meet YOUR perception of what its worth. I WON'T DO THAT FOR ANYONE.

AND ONE MORE THING, I've never backed a Charmie project. So I can't speak to the quality of their decks, but I would wager that Cartamundi decks cost more to produce than WJPCC decks do. Probably by a considerable margin. So this isn't an apples to apples comparison.

[STLBluesNut]

Everytime I read that someone thinks a creator should charge less for a product it boils my blood. It's SO disrespectful to a producer to tell them what they should charge. If someone doesn't want to pay the price? Then they shouldn't. But NO ONE has the right to tell anyone else what their time or their products are worth. Even the market/economy is limited in it's ability to dictate that change. The only one who has the right to change that perception is the producer themselves.

it is probably semantics and maybe not the way you meant it but ANYONE has the RIGHT to tell anyone else almost ANYTHING (in the US anyhow). with obvious criminal exceptions. however, the whole point of my post was not, nor did i, to tell you, or anyone else, what to charge but to point out other projects/producers/creators that make products at a, imo, reasonable price to me.

The proudest i've ever felt about a product bearing my brand is the Sarcophagus. The elation and praise from collectors who have received theirs makes it beyond satisfying. That BOX SET was the vision from the beginning. Why can't folks understand that boxsets aren't all about 'gatekeeping' or paywalls.

not even getting back into the sarcophagus discussion. that was your vision, you made it a reality. very good on your for your work and perseverance.

And you can say, STLBluesNut, that all you WANT is to support me... but the proof is in the pudding. What you ACTUALLY want is for me to capitulate and devalue my brand to meet YOUR perception of what its worth. I WON'T DO THAT FOR ANYONE.

i do truly want to support you and buy your products. the ''proof [that] is in the pudding'' is that when there are not options available at prices i find reasonable then i do not purchase. you certainly to not have to capitulate to anything anyone says, let alone one voice in a proportionately small community. you have made that abundantly clear in word and action the you will not do that. i cannot find in my post where i told you or anyone else to do anything. i cannot find where i even asked anyone to do anything. i did encourage any designer to look at some examples i gave of multiple projects. i stated my opinions and thoughts for anyone to read. i suppose the last 3 sentences were actually directed towards or about you specifically. at the beginning i answered a question you asked.

i am also of the opinion that, for example, offering all decks apart from having to buying extra items with prices based only on the decks would not devalue a brand. i personally have never read or heard anyone say something remotely close to '' what a cheap ass brand, i have the option to buy every item independent of having to buy some other item. pass." i have seen on many occasions some express that they bought a 2 or 3 deck set, box set, etc but were happy to see you could get things separately. charmie projects, for example. i feel like a brand would grow more/faster by having those kind of options available.

AND ONE MORE THING, I've never backed a Charmie project. So I can't speak to the quality of their decks, but I would wager that Cartamundi decks cost more to produce than WJPCC decks do. Probably by a considerable margin. So this isn't an apples to apples comparison.

and this is why i encouraged any designer to check out his projects, among others. regardless of printer, coin/box/booklet manufacturer, artist, brand, etc., imo, this is what i think a reasonably priced, quality set with all of the deck features available can look like. it may not be a granny smith to granny smith comparison but i certainly think it is apples to apples. maybe green to red apples .

[PiazzaDelivery]

I think some of what Blues has written could have been formulated in a manner which would have missed certain sore spots, but I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment.

This forum is not only meant to fawn over certain projects and worship the ground certain creators walk upon. Sure, you can find plenty of that on UnitedCardists, but voicing opinion and legitimate criticism is just as valid as anything else. It's just talk, shootin' the shit so to speak, about a topic for which we're all passionate.

[double_left]

collectors wait a year later and then buy it at a discounted. I don't want to keep falling into the trap of being the sap who pays full price for something when others get the item later on clearance.

I’m sure -based off Omar perception that these decks will only go up in value and is why he’s selling 1000 per-order at a heart-warming discount for all of us, you’ll be able to find them on the after market for $50-$60 in years to come.

Sometimes creators get out of touch with reality and will go to the end of the world to justify their beliefs

[Sir Toddalot]

Do we really have to keep rehashing this? I think it’s clear where everyone stands. TGW isn’t just selling decks, he’s selling a package, a brand, a luxury item. Understandably, some people don’t like that and just want him to sell the decks. Clearly, he’s not changing his mind, and neither are you. And nobody has to. It does seem like Omar gets criticized more for his decisions than other creators, and I think that’s thanks to his more active presence here and him actually responding to concerns, which encourages back and forths, which unfortunately never seem to go anywhere. I’m really glad he is active here, lets not get toxic and drive him off. It’s perfectly fair to have criticisms, but after a while it seems like people just keep repeating themselves and not bringing anything new to the conversation.

[Harvonsgard]

I’m sure -based off Omar perception that these decks will only go up in value and is why he’s selling 1000 per-order at a heart-warming discount for all of us, you’ll be able to find them on the after market for $50-$60 in years to come.

Sometimes creators get out of touch with reality and will go to the end of the world to justify their beliefs

As if the aftermarket is a common place for keeping in touch with reality, haha. Not to mention inflation, lol.
Above statement is just ridiculous and void of any reason.

[GandalfPC]

Well, it is a good point actually - if anyone can tell me where I can pre-order them on the aftermarket, redeemable several years from now at a 50% discount I would be intrigued…

I think all collectors would find that universe fun to live in.

[redux]

Omar, is there any chance of you reconsidering using a EU based fulfilment center?

Don't know what's the cost with for example Jocu, but they have been a perfect experience so far.

Keeping fingers crossed, it's possible

I'll vote for this!!

[TheGentlemanWake]

New coin. I think a marked improvement.

[Fenrir]

I think that looks a lot better than the previous options. My only critique is that the circular border is too large or just too plain but it’s still the best version yet.

[Harvonsgard]

Better indeed.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Here it is in copper finish. Testing the color for Villa Beluno

[STLBluesNut]

that coin with the shiny and frosted finish looks really nice! especially in the copper finish.