The problem with Kickstarter

[BMPokerworld]

IMO, your statement is exactly the problem and why people keep getting burned. First, you are not investing in a company as you seem to be saying. You are investing in a product. Once that product gets funded, there is absolutely no reason for the product not be delivered, unless the project creator is a thief, scammer and a con-artist. If they have not done sufficient research and develop problems AFTER they receive funding, then they shouldn't have started the campaign to begin with because they lack sufficient business acumen. Saying it is OK to get burned AFTER the campaign has been funded and the creator has received the money, is ridiculous. They have everything they asked for at that point and have no reason to not deliver what they promised and even more importantly, what the backer PAID for.

Sure they have everything they asked for, but that doesn't imply they asked for enough, nor does it imply they were truly ready to launch the kickstarter. I totally get you are investing in a product, but it is an investment meaning it can fail. I guess from the first Kickstarter I backed I never held the illusion I was simply buying a product. I understood these are not proven businesspeople (who *still* make mistakes and miscalculations) nor finished products just waiting to be shipped. Thinking that crap is never going to hit the fan is what is ridiculous. Also I never tried to justify "scammers", I said if you as a backer feel there are too many scammers then sure, back off. But I've seen projects fail for other reasons even after getting funded, whether its the fact the person didn't do the shipping calculations or what have you. I honestly can't believe people approach Kickstarter as just another store, its ridiculous.

You comparison in trying to get a bank to invest in your product, is not relevant and you are comparing apples and oranges. People who invest in companies have many more failures than they do successes, but the successes, hopefully, will return significant profit to the investor above and beyond the losses they have with the companies that did not work out. That is not what Kickstater is or does. You have no upside beyond your product that you have PAID for UPFRONT. Basically, that is all you are doing. You are advancing funds to someone that doesn't have them to get their product produced. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks!

I was not writing a comparison. Other people in this thread commented that people who can't go to a bank to get an initial investment go to kickstarter, while others were saying that Kickstarters should be more guaranteed. My point was if we push Kickstarter all the way to that point, we've pretty much closed off the people who couldn't have gotten a business investment and completely missed the point. And while I technically agree with your point, ideologically I don't. In my mind kickstarter is about getting someone's project off the ground. You could view their project as a single deck of cards, but personally I would hope that most KS campaigns are trying to build something lasting. Get enough money to start a proper playing card company rather than coming back to KS every time. Perhaps it is hard to understand this mentality if you only look at playing card kickstarters, but with a lot of other kickstarters higher tier rewards are more about giving the creator more money to achieve their dream than it is about getting more product.

So to bring it back down to the ground, yes I think its perfectly acceptable to give money to someone where you are risking that they didn't do all their homework and calculations. Who maybe didn't look into every minute detail. Honestly other than a scant few KS post-mortems you can read and learn from there isn't a whole lot of how-to guides. A lot of this is very new to people who haven't previously run a business of any sort. And I think it would be a big loss to push these types out of KS because I have seen people grow tremendously in the trial-by-fire and manage to ship their rewards too.

edit: You know there are other reasons that KS run into hiccups that run beyond doing due diligence. Kickstarters that way overfund resulting in mfring changes for one. Again maybe not an issue with cards, but I backed a KS for a cast iron product that ended up getting enough backers the creator had to changes forges b/c the forge he was originally planning to use couldn't handle the # of orders. Similar experience with a slim wallet I backed. That project also got extremely overfunded and ended up taking several months to get a new mfr lined up and making all the wallets. I went with a color that was released only a month behind schedule, but I'm pretty sure some backers are *still* receiving theirs like 6 months later. I think it is naive to say that it's some tried and true thing to launch a kickstarter and know exactly what you're doing. Perhaps playing cards _can_ be more of an exact science if they stick exclusively to cards (no chips or dice or posters or w/e), use USPCC, and make sure to calcluate out the shipping costs beforehand. But that is probably the 1% case for KS. Most include hidden factors and unexpected scenarios that would be impossible, impractical, or insanely tedious to ferret out.

While I understand your point and agree with what your saying, the vast majority of fails are not technical in nature. The fails come almost exclusively from not shipping the rewards out in a timely fashion. No matter how you slice it, it is because the campaign creator is not willing to put the time in to ship the rewards to their backers in a timely fashion. I 100% agree that they get overwhelmed and get lost, but instead of dealing with the problem head on, they stick their head in the sand and think one day the packages will ship out by themselves.

One of the things that I think have really hurt playing card campaigns is that we had 2 disastrous projects at the very beginning. Alex's Vortex deck and Lance's Stempunk deck. People are still waiting for their vortex decks to this day, which is over 14 months after Alex received them and the steampunk deck took almost a year because of personal problems that Lance had, that I will not share here. Those 2 projects set the bar so low, that new campaign creators think it is OK if you deliver rewards 6, 9 or 12 months after the campaign was funded.

Thanks!

[MagikFingerz]

I'm of the opinion that playing cards never had any place on kickstarter to begin with. Kickstarter seems to me to be great for huge and/or obscure projects, but was never intended for the "if you preorder enough stuff from me I'll make it and send it to you"-projects. Maybe if they just removed the pledge level system altogether, since that's what's basically making it an online storefront for preorders.

[deleter]

One of the things that I think have really hurt playing card campaigns is that we had 2 disastrous projects at the very beginning. Alex's Vortex deck and Lance's Stempunk deck. People are still waiting for their vortex decks to this day, which is over 14 months after Alex received them and the steampunk deck took almost a year because of personal problems that Lance had, that I will not share here. Those 2 projects set the bar so low, that new campaign creators think it is OK if you deliver rewards 6, 9 or 12 months after the campaign was funded.

Thanks!

Ok, as someone who came upon buying interesting playing cards via KS rather than the other way around I wasn't really aware of this and in light of that I can see where you're coming from. I definitely think if someone simply wants to produce a deck without a lot of flair addons, especially now with posts like yours explaining all the true facts, it should be a pretty exact science with relatively few unknowns. And it sounds like playing cards need a kick in the butt and change in attitude since the fault does lay with them here. I kinda realized after typing up my response how a lot of my opinion of KS comes from my overall view of it, not playing card KSs exclusively.

I'm of the opinion that playing cards never had any place on kickstarter to begin with. Kickstarter seems to me to be great for huge and/or obscure projects, but was never intended for the "if you preorder enough stuff from me I'll make it and send it to you"-projects. Maybe if they just removed the pledge level system altogether, since that's what's basically making it an online storefront for preorders.

I think the issue is more cultural than technical. Rewarding backers more for contributing more is fine, and having 'pledge tiers' is a good technical way to implement that. The issue lays in that some people do see KS as a store, and I think in the early days KS did nothing to make them think otherwise. Perhaps there should be more effort on their part to stress and plainly show that this is effectively a donation/investment in an idea. I think their limiting most products down to a single copy, or 12 in the case of playing cards, helps that in part, but they could go further. I think KS is for any project that can attract crowds enough to fund them who are enthusiastic about not just being a consumer, but being part of the producing effort.

Honestly other than KS needing to continue to make strides towards being very clear in the fact they are *not* a store, I think it largely comes down to personal choice. If you don't buy the KS way of doing things, then don't pledge. Wait for decks to come to retailers. But to say that KS is somehow a problem or broken or should make massive changes is to ignore all the great things that have come out of it.

[PlayingCardz]

I'm of the opinion that playing cards never had any place on kickstarter to begin with. Kickstarter seems to me to be great for huge and/or obscure projects, but was never intended for the "if you preorder enough stuff from me I'll make it and send it to you"-projects. Maybe if they just removed the pledge level system altogether, since that's what's basically making it an online storefront for preorders.

This.

[dcell59]

I never treated Kickstarter as a "store", but that doesn't mean I agree with your view. Kickstarter does not present itself as a pure investment platform. The terms of service specifically state that project creators are expected to either send the rewards or refund the money. It's in the terms of use - no creator has any excuse for trying to create a project that could fail like some have. You aren't supposed to start with just an idea and a guess at how much it is supposed to cost. For a card project, you should have the artwork basically done, you should know how much it will cost to manufacture the cards, and you should know how much time and money it will take to ship the cards. There should be absolutely no reason for a card project to fail and for you not to be able to refund the money.

The "not a store" statement doesn't go far enough given the way Kickstarter currently works. All "not a store" says is that you can't assume that the creators will get things to you by the estimated delivery date. For Kickstarter to be completely honest, they need to say up front that when you pay your money, you should not expect to get the rewards on time, or even close to on time, and you shouldn't expect the rewards at all. Period. If you can't accept that, you shouldn't spend the money on Kickstarter. Also, don't expect us to help you get your money back, and don't bother Amazon to help you get your money back.

Obviously, Kickstarter wouldn't say something like this because it would cost them way too much money. Instead, they hide behind terms of use that they have never enforced.

[th4mo]

I can totally see where Deleter is coming from with his point of view, and I also totally get why Mike and others disagree with that view point.

I think it literally is a matter of the language Deleter chooses to describe his POV. He likes the idea of helping out the little guy, the artists with great ideas that can't get off the ground otherwise. A lot of these people are probably not very good at running a business and they run far from ideal KS campaigns. When we talk about "investing" in these projects, and taking some satisfaction in their success, that is not the same as literally *investing* in a company, in which case an investor experiences a financial return if the company goes on to be successful.

The "return" that Deleter gets from his "investment" is a sense of pride and simply a good feeling from helping out someone who creativity inspires or satisfies him. I think it is more appropriate to think of this activity as patronage rather than investment. We usually think of patrons of the arts as wealthy donors like your Rockefellers and your Guggenheims. But with KS, anyone can support anyone else with artistic or creative ideas that they appreciate, for as much or as little as they want. Nobody wants to give their money away to a straight-up scammer or moron, but sometimes it's worth risking a small pledge on a cool idea that you'd like to see succeed, but maybe it won't. It's totally fair to criticize that action on the basis of "investment", but if you see it as a personal choice to support art in general or the art of playing cards in particular, then that decision is totally up to the donor.

I'm not wealthy, and i'm not out here just trying to help artists get up on their feet. I still expect to get at least the cards i ordered in return for my pledge. But i take more pleasure in buying my cards off of KS than simply going to the store or an online shop, and that's because i get to take some pride in knowing that i was a small part of helping some really cool artists (like Jackson, 4PM, Albino Dragon, Faro, Deco, to name a few) experience great success, and hopefully produce many more awesome decks of cards in the future!

And then i can spend even more money on cards, blow my retirement, and file for bankruptcy. hmmm.... maybe i should rethink my position... Screw those artists!!!

[th4mo]

I'm of the opinion that playing cards never had any place on kickstarter to begin with. Kickstarter seems to me to be great for huge and/or obscure projects, but was never intended for the "if you preorder enough stuff from me I'll make it and send it to you"-projects. Maybe if they just removed the pledge level system altogether, since that's what's basically making it an online storefront for preorders.

This.

Active thread!

Funny, i think the opposite. I see KS as exactly the "if you preorder enough stuff from me I'll make it and send it to you" platform. Seems like a great way for the person with a new idea to find out if there is enough interest in said idea to make it worth producing. This doesn't at all mean that they shouldn't take the time to plan and think things through, especially where information is plentiful (as it now clearly is with playing cards). But ultimately, the evaluation about whether or not a project can and will succeed, is up to the backers. You have to believe enough in the project you are backing to put up your own money. Personally i have never backed a project for more than $100 other than federal 52, and 90% of my pledges are less than $20. I would be terrified to pledge a substantial amount of money on KS, so it would have to be something that i REALLY believed in, and that's the way it should be! I am of the opinion that backers are the best police system KS can have. Backers should carefully evaluate the projects they back, and if they are not comfortable pledging, they should stay away. i don't see anything wrong with cancelling a pledge at the end of a project, either, if you start to have misgivings. And in extreme cases, backers may have to take things into their own hands to pressure or prosecute failed projects, as they have started to do. Kickstarter may not be that "young" in terms of the digital age, but IRL it is still going through a lot of growing pains as new users flock to the site every day. "Buyer beware" is always an appropriate philosophy.

That said, i also really like what MagikFingerz said about removing the pledge level system. All these add-ons and limited-edition variants, signed special editions, and extra crap just take away from the pure heart of the idea, which is: "hey, i want to make this cool thing, and if enough of you people out there think it is cool too, you can help me make it and you can have one too!"

[walrus]

One positive side of ks is that it gives us a lot to discuss on the forums. I don't back many decks, the only one I had a major issue with is the VORTEX DECK. Mike, you mentioned people are still waiting for their VORTEX DECKS to be delivered, I don't think that is true, I think most people have written it off and realize they got scammed. I see Alex critiquing other KS projects in regards to shipping etc. I don't know how he can even mention such things. Although the entire VORTEX DECK turned out to be a crafty scam it did teach me a lesson. It was the first ks project I backed so l found I needed to be very careful. I limit the amount I will spend on KS. KS has brought us several several nice decks such as the Americana and Blue Bloods. I try to stick to people who have a proven track record but even that is no guarantee as we found in the Army man deck.

[deleter]

I can totally see where Deleter is coming from with his point of view, and I also totally get why Mike and others disagree with that view point.

I think it literally is a matter of the language Deleter chooses to describe his POV. He likes the idea of helping out the little guy, the artists with great ideas that can't get off the ground otherwise. A lot of these people are probably not very good at running a business and they run far from ideal KS campaigns. When we talk about "investing" in these projects, and taking some satisfaction in their success, that is not the same as literally *investing* in a company, in which case an investor experiences a financial return if the company goes on to be successful.

The "return" that Deleter gets from his "investment" is a sense of pride and simply a good feeling from helping out someone who creativity inspires or satisfies him. I think it is more appropriate to think of this activity as patronage rather than investment. We usually think of patrons of the arts as wealthy donors like your Rockefellers and your Guggenheims. But with KS, anyone can support anyone else with artistic or creative ideas that they appreciate, for as much or as little as they want. Nobody wants to give their money away to a straight-up scammer or moron, but sometimes it's worth risking a small pledge on a cool idea that you'd like to see succeed, but maybe it won't. It's totally fair to criticize that action on the basis of "investment", but if you see it as a personal choice to support art in general or the art of playing cards in particular, then that decision is totally up to the donor.

Well put. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I wasn't using 'investment' in the strict financial sense, and perhaps using 'patronage' clears that up.

Funny, i think the opposite. I see KS as exactly the "if you preorder enough stuff from me I'll make it and send it to you" platform. Seems like a great way for the person with a new idea to find out if there is enough interest in said idea to make it worth producing. This doesn't at all mean that they shouldn't take the time to plan and think things through, especially where information is plentiful (as it now clearly is with playing cards).

Yea it's kind of bizarre to me to see people suggesting this isn't the case. The whole point is 'this is neat, help me make it if you agree'.

That said, i also really like what MagikFingerz said about removing the pledge level system. All these add-ons and limited-edition variants, signed special editions, and extra crap just take away from the pure heart of the idea, which is: "hey, i want to make this cool thing, and if enough of you people out there think it is cool too, you can help me make it and you can have one too!"

Perhaps instead of removing the pledge level system, KS should limit any given campaign to a single produced item, and the pledges can be used for perks like a digital 'making of' download where relevant, or the ability to name or customize some aspect of the product. On manufactured goods I've seen the ability to inscribe a personal message be a $50+ upgrade etc. Things where you get a little bump for your extra patronage, but it's not confusing the campaign and rewards like having a smorgasbord of different items you can add on.

[dcell59]

But this problem isn't that things are too complicated - the problem is that people aren't following through on their promises. Well, that's part of the problem, anyway. Another major factor is that Kickstarter doesn't do anything to help/make them. As Mike has pointed out, most of the projects we're talking about here finished making their products, but have just been very lax (or just downright criminally negligent) in sending out the rewards.

[badpete69]

This is not card related but it is indeed Kickstarter related

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/21/tech/kick ... ?hpt=hp_t3

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

and why only an app for iphone? Droid has been a series if not superior contender for quite some time!

[deleter]

Interesting article on how not to shaft int'l backers on shipping:
http://www.stonemaiergames.com/how-to-p ... ive-guide/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BMPokerworld]

Interesting article on how not to shaft int'l backers on shipping:
http://www.stonemaiergames.com/how-to-p ... ive-guide/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is exactly what I did with the UC deck.

Thanks!

[deleter]

Did you include that level of detail with your write-up? I perused your article but since I'm not planning on running a KS any time soon I didn't read the entire thing.

[BMPokerworld]

Did you include that level of detail with your write-up? I perused your article but since I'm not planning on running a KS any time soon I didn't read the entire thing.

Not exactly sure if this comment was meant for me, but if it was, there really would be no reason to do that for your Kickstarter campaign. Everyone can see for themselves what you are charging and will know whether you have done that or not.

Thanks!

[deleter]

Did you include that level of detail with your write-up? I perused your article but since I'm not planning on running a KS any time soon I didn't read the entire thing.

Not exactly sure if this comment was meant for me, but if it was, there really would be no reason to do that for your Kickstarter campaign. Everyone can see for themselves what you are charging and will know whether you have done that or not.

Thanks!

Yea I meant you. And what I meant was did you describe the process as more of a how-to guide like that article comes out. Basically I was asking if I was providing any value for potential KS creators on this forum or whether you had already provided this info through your write-up.

[BMPokerworld]

Did you include that level of detail with your write-up? I perused your article but since I'm not planning on running a KS any time soon I didn't read the entire thing.

Not exactly sure if this comment was meant for me, but if it was, there really would be no reason to do that for your Kickstarter campaign. Everyone can see for themselves what you are charging and will know whether you have done that or not.

Thanks!

Yea I meant you. And what I meant was did you describe the process as more of a how-to guide like that article comes out. Basically I was asking if I was providing any value for potential KS creators on this forum or whether you had already provided this info through your write-up.

I have provided quite a bit of information on shipping at various times and throughout various threads on this forum.

Thanks!

[BMPokerworld]

Here's another great article about 2 guys who are making a film about crowdfunding and in the process, uncovered and exposed a $120,00 Kickstarter fraud in the process. Luckily, they were able to provide enough evidence to Kickstarter to have them cancel the project with a few minutes left in the campaign. Check it out and let me know what you think.

http://www.kickstartedmovie.com/#!kobe-beef-scam/c17i0

Thanks!

[walrus]

Mike, that article would be funny if it were not people's money involved. How do you think VORTEX JERKY
Would taste.

[BMPokerworld]

Mike, that article would be funny if it were not people's money involved. How do you think VORTEX JERKY
Would taste.

Not as good as Walrus Jerky, I am sure

Thanks!

[MagikFingerz]

[Strag]

Here's another great article about 2 guys who are making a film about crowdfunding and in the process, uncovered and exposed a $120,00 Kickstarter fraud in the process. Luckily, they were able to provide enough evidence to Kickstarter to have them cancel the project with a few minutes left in the campaign. Check it out and let me know what you think.

http://www.kickstartedmovie.com/#!kobe-beef-scam/c17i0

Thanks!

Sounds like it would be a good idea to contact these guys and talk to them about all the various playing card projects that have either failed to deliver or are looking like they will (such as Core and Asylum).