THUNDERDOME: On the topic of Pride / Rainbow branded products

[GandalfPC]

I have removed the unneeded words regarding gender, as Duncan covered it quite succinctly.

Instead we can cover vanilla:

While you may not call artificial vanilla “vanilla” the entire rest of the world does - one is “natural” one is “artificial” - and even in that case, the term “natural vanilla flavoring” covers multiple natural sources for the flavoring, one being vanilla bean, one being from the rear ends of beavers.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... -flavoring

[EvilDuncan]

But also, the rules of language are not written in stone. They change over time and can be adapted to our ever-changing world.

The concept of trans people is (I think) relatively new compared to that of homosexuality. Thus, we need to adapt out language to account for it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Gender is tied to sex. There are generally only two sexes, male and female. Gender adds a few more distinctions (not as many as sexual orientation). Wikipedia can explain it better than I can:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

Even if you're "non-binary", you're still a male or female, unless you have mutations.

Sexual orientation is the 3rd subject matter, and this is the one represented in the "LGB+" acronym.

[GandalfPC]

Transgender is different from transsexual, the latter involving surgery the former does not and has been around for a very, very long time.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Transgenderism has not been around that long. It's no surprise that it was invented by extreme feminism, and it's no surprise that those involved with its invention have tried to blur the lines between sex, gender, and orientation.

[EvilDuncan]

When you get to the core of the issue, transexuality is not really that different than homosexuality. Typically, both are born with this aspect as part of their brain chemistry (there are other cases where they arise from trauma, mental illness, or something else), and they eventually discover that this is who they are. No one just wakes up one day and decides to be trans. They go through a long process of self-discovery to realize that their view of themselves (brain chemistry) is not aligned with their physical body. Now I suppose transexuality is artificial in the sense that it typically involves the artificial use of hormones, surgery, etc. to mitigate the issue, whereas these are not necessary for any form of homosexuality.

Let's say a man (born male) has gone on this journey of self discovery and found themselves to be more comfortable as a woman. They go through HRT/surgery/whatever. In the end, they may still be biologically male in their DNA, but they are not a Man®. They exist as a part of society as a woman, that's where gender is important vs sex.

Transgender is different from transsexual, the latter involving surgery the former does not and has been around for a very, very long time.

I think this distinction is perhaps important, but not currently relevant as it just dilutes the discussion at hand. Thank you for the clarification though.

[theCapraAegagrus]

This appears to be a good time for me to leave this discussion amicably. I didn't comment on it earlier, but it's good to see that those behind the T11 deck seem to actually be putting the profits into a good cause (I looked into where the money is apparently going). That's not much of a surprise to me, as they have made decks for many good charities in the past.

[Timmargh]

Transgenderism has not been around that long. It's no surprise that it was invented by extreme feminism, and it's no surprise that those involved with its invention have tried to blur the lines between sex, gender, and orientation.

Tell that to the Ojibwe.

[CourtCurator]

Most people I know are honest and upfront about who they are. That includes the trans people. Have you ever stopped to think that a trans person may not initially be upfront about their nature out of fear and not out of some quest to prove some point about the nature of the words man or woman? The hate and abuse these people endure is real and a constant in their lives.

[Harvonsgard]

LGBTQQIP2SAA+ and others...

Like for real? If you use almost one third of the alphabet to describe your movement you've somewhat strayed from the main issue.

I still don't get what non-binary means. You're cool with how you are but don't want to be called a woman or man? Not meant offensive in any way, shape or form.

1. Pride is a Deadly SIn.

What?

[GandalfPC]

From the article linked below: Why “Non-Binary”?

Some societies – like ours – tend to recognize just two genders, male and female. The idea that there are only two genders is sometimes called a “gender binary,” because binary means “having two parts” (male and female). Therefore, “non-binary” is one term people use to describe genders that don’t fall into one of these two categories, male or female.

https://transequality.org/issues/resour ... supportive


As for the plethora of letters - It is ok with me that they use them, but I also hope they forgive me for the fact that I lost track after four or five and will not be keeping up with them. I also have trouble with my phone number and birthdate from time to time, so there is little hope I will keep up even if I put in the effort. The other day at the post office my zip code escaped me

[Sir Toddalot]

1. Pride is a Deadly SIn.

What?

Pretty sure that’s a joke. Pride is considered to be one of the 7 deadly sins in the Catholic faith, and really bad in just about every other major religion. A lot of christian philosophers go so far as to call it the first and father of all sins.

[Harvonsgard]

I'm aware of the concept. Was just curious if Chris indeed just meant it as a joke.

[STLBluesNut]

i haven't been reading the last couple pages of this but ill just leave this here.

so this is happening in fairfax county, virginia USA:

The changes in the Student Rights and Responsibilities handbook, approved by a vote of 8-4, make it possible for students as young as fourth grade to be suspended for "malicious misgendering" or "deadnaming" their peers. "Deadnaming" is a word used to describe the act of referring to someone by a name they used prior to transitioning.

so which side is imposing their will on others and hampering free speech? fourth grade? this wasn't an issue when i was in 4th grade, we were worried about gi joe. who in the ''smurf'' is allowing any CHILD ''transition'' in the first place besides a parent pushing an ideology on them. but there is no agenda/ideology being pushed by a group of adults on kids right? malicious misgendering is a joke. calling someone the wrong pronoun, ''maliciously'' or not should not be punishable in any degree of common sense. i identify as a dojo leader so everyone must call me master from now on or face punishment. ridiculous. adjectives are subjective and we dont even get to pick those for ourselves. i cant make you say i am nice if you think im an a-hole. i certainly cannot make you face punishment for it. pronouns are objective by a given standard, biological sex standard in my book and what i will be using.
'' yesterday tommy called me he but i said i am a girl" - Danielle
"well tommy called you she today what is the problem?" -teacher
"today i am a boy" -Daniel

this is definitely, 100%, no logical argument can be made, a free speech problem and if you think this isnt being pushed to become law your are sadly mistaken. look at canada. THIS is one of the things i am 100% against the lgbt MOVEMENT, not individuals. as an individual, do whatever you like, you have my support but the MOVEMENT is 100% problematic for me which i probably should have made clear days ago here.

anyway, /rantoff. please continue ladies and/or gentleman. <--- oops, hope that isn't punishable. well, at least not outside that school. yet.

[GandalfPC]

Referring to Harvonsgard’s pondering if Chris meant Pride as a joke: As he did put it as #1 in a list that was obviously not a list of jokes I would say he meant it - though he can feel free to object of course.

I would add that Wrath (anger) is also a sin, with which he seems comfortable enough and that the church which is being quoted as saying pride is a sin didn’t stop at that list and continued on to declare divorce and homosexuality as things that they felt in a position to take issue with - so pride or not, they are not going to please that group, nor should they try to.

As for blues last post, at any age “malicious” anything should be discouraged, and he certainly did miss at least one post that was pertinent - so I would suggest he does take the time to read the entirety of the thread, as a heartfelt post by a parent of a child that is effected by the topic deserves to be at least considered rather than skipped over before ranting.

The post I refer to is this one: viewtopic.php?p=220417#p220417

The child in question, was in the 3rd grade.

[STLBluesNut]

as a heartfelt post by a parent of a child that is effected by the topic

The child in question, was in the 3rd grade.

like i said, no logical argument that forcing others to say certain words is a free speech problem 100% no matter what is forced being said. you can attempt to justify it all you like. which is all it is a justification without adressing the point and a weak justification at that. without going back and reading this circle jerk again, i would be willing to bet you at least agreed with the statement, if not made it, that there is absolutely no reason to violate someones freedoms or rights. i guess that doesnt apply here because it doesnt suit you in this circumstance. notice you didnt disagree with the point, you went of to ''“malicious” anything should be discouraged''. i didn't realize he or she were some sort of slur now. i guess they are depending on if the person hearing doesn't like it or not

your quote above only shows the partial motivation for your immovable bias.

edit- since you wanna play the heartfelt parent card my daughter is bisexual and i love her and support her 100%. so you might not want to use that argument.

[GandalfPC]

The malicious part was in the statement:

suspended for "malicious misgendering" or "deadnaming" their peers

One assumes that means malicious deadnaming - not accidental, and upon checking the handbook in question, malicious is not just implied, but specified.

And yes, I will still use the argument that you should read the post in question, and that regardless of your child being bisexual and supported by you it does not excuse your rants, nor does it explain them.

[STLBluesNut]

The malicious part was in the statement:

suspended for "malicious misgendering" or "deadnaming" their peers

One assumes that means malicious deadnaming - not accidental

still, not addressing the issue of free speech. i expect no less. ill be checking out again so don't bother replying or waiting for mine. no use discussing or arguing this with you any longer.

[GandalfPC]

I think that it answers it well enough. Free speech in the classroom does not include malicious speech anymore than free speech allows for crying fire in a crowded theater - free speech has limits based upon location and context.

You can call your teacher an f-ing whore, free speech - yet it certainly isn’t really allowed and will certainly get you suspended.


One imagines that calling your heterosexual male or female teacher by the wrong pronoun, maliciously, will also get you in trouble. Don’t think so? Try it with your teacher, your boss, your father and mother - use it with everyone you meet - do it over and over, maliciously - see if it gets you in trouble.

[Harvonsgard]

I guess on of the points STL is trying to convey is, that what is defined as hate and maliscious often comes from a place of just not being bothered by certain stuff and doesn't come from bad faith or ill intent but all of the sudden you're labeled as a hateful person that is going to be made responsible for suicide or the hate crimes comitted by indeed hateful people.

[Sir Toddalot]

Referring to Harvonsgard’s pondering if Chris meant Pride as a joke: As he did put it as #1 in a list that was obviously not a list of jokes I would say he meant it - though he can feel free to object of course.

I would add that Wrath (anger) is also a sin, with which he seems comfortable enough and that the church which is being quoted as saying pride is a sin didn’t stop at that list and continued on to declare divorce and homosexuality as things that they felt in a position to take issue with - so pride or not, they are not going to please that group, nor should they try to.

Rereading the post it does come across as fairly serious, I just assumed it was a joke because of the thoughts you expressed above. I would assume a small number of the LGBT community would consider themselves Catholic, I’m sure a decent number would be fairly anti-catholic, so no one would expect them to care much about Catholic doctrine. I guess I do wonder why exactly the LGBT community decided to use the word pride to represent themselves. While its not exclusivity a negative word, it does carry a lot of negative connotation with it. Probably in no small part thanks to church teachings.

[GandalfPC]

We do have to accept that malicious is to be determined by the staff of the school, and until proven otherwise I think that teachers and faculty have dealt with enough children to know malicious from innocent well enough. Will mistakes ever be made, sure, will suspension for a mistake be the end of the universe, no. And whatever mistakes happen over the new rule, I am sure that equal mistakes will happen over other old rules.

Pride as a deadly sin is not simply the word pride, but the meaning that it conveyed at the time:

Dante's definition of pride was "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbor" which is a decent encapsulation of what the sin speaks of.

That is not the simple word, nor is it the way the word is used in the “Pride” we speak of, which simply means be proud of who you are and do not let others keep you from that. It does not mean love of self to the point of hatred and contempt for others - not by any means.

A child should hear “I am proud of you” from their parents. That may make them feel pride - again, not the sin, but the modern meaning, and thats a good thing.

[Sir Toddalot]

That is not the simple word, nor is it the way the word is used in the “Pride” we speak of, which simply means be proud of who you are and do not let others keep you from that. It does not mean love of self to the point of hatred and contempt for others - not by any means.

I do understand they are using the word pride in a different way than I understand. I guess when I first heard it used that way it seemed strange to me because I’ve always understood pride to have a negative meaning, and didnt understand why someone would want to use it to represent themselves. But I know that’s just a cultural difference. It’s hard to keep up with all the new meanings words can have, I’m certainly not old, but whenever I talk to my younger siblings still in school they’ll use words in new ways I’ve never heard before! This kind of ties into what you were discussing above, it just seems easier than ever to offend people using the wrong word or phrase. I might not be malicious in saying something, but someone else might take it that way because they have a different understanding of the words I’m using. I really don’t want to have to change my vocabulary every time someone decides a certain word is offensive, or means something different. I can’t keep track.

[Timmargh]

Freedom of speech does not mean free from consequences.

[GandalfPC]

I know how Toddalot feels - I am of old enough to have plenty of my vocabulary go out of fashion without my knowledge - but that is the way of the world, and if the world had been a perfect place in the past it wouldn’t need to change in the future - sometimes faltering on the way to a better world arguably, but such is the path to progress.

I can barely keep track of where I put my glasses, and often find myself struggling to remember which term is correct or incorrect to describe a group - usually it suffices to simply try your best, take correction with aplomb, or in some cases realize that you don’t really need to refer to a group in the statement at all. Is it proper to say Idris Elba is a great black actor, a great African American actor, or simply “a great actor” - the need to include a label is arguably the part that is both easiest, and best, to discard rather than find a fitting phrase for.

As important as “Pride” is to the movement, it would be a wonderful world if they had no reason to have such a movement.

Civil rights was quite the battle, still ongoing - and it would be a wonderful world if there had been no need for that as well.

But its not a wonderful world - not for everyone, not everywhere, and likely won’t be when I wake in the morning.

[CourtCurator]

I think if you really take a step back and think about it, that school policy is just making it clear that bullying based on gender identity is not allowed. I accidentally call my child by the wrong pronouns ALL the time, and it isn’t really a big deal. It isn’t an easy thing to adjust to, even for someone who cares and wants to honor the wishes of others. I can not imagine there being any punishments dolled out for anything less than cruel behavior that should not be tolerated regardless of the stated policy. It’s just making it clear that this type of behavior is considered bullying, as I would hope you would agree it should be.

Can I ask you what exactly it is that you think children are being indoctrinated into? How specifically do you imagine adults are indoctrinating kids? What does that look like? Is it simply exposure to the idea that being different in these specific ways is acceptable, or is it something more sinister? Do you believe a child is capable of knowing themselves well enough to understand they are different? Why is it a big ask for you to call someone what they would like to be called? How is it different from calling someone their preferred nickname?

[Eric Lee]

The changes in the Student Rights and Responsibilities handbook, approved by a vote of 8-4, make it possible for students as young as fourth grade to be suspended for "malicious misgendering" or "deadnaming" their peers. "Deadnaming" is a word used to describe the act of referring to someone by a name they used prior to transitioning.

Man, this discussion certainly evolved. Fascinating about how English pronouns is now such a big thing. Many asian languages (I speak 2 of them, Cantonese Chinese and Malay) the pronouns are gender neutral.

In fact my wife who was Chinese educated (Chinese medium national school for 12 yrs) still occasionally keeps mixing up the s/he pronouns when we talk in English. Makes it interesting for me when I'm trying to follow her conversation and she switches the s/he. So the whole s/he thing is not even a thing in my part of the world.

Pity the poor immigrant kid who mixes up the pronouns in that school! Tough enough learning such a complicated language like English when you have to worry about getting punished because you can't keep straight the English gender pronouns.

Seriously though, the westerners have no idea how good you all have it when you can even make it a law to make sure you get called the gender pronoun properly. Life is really tough for these group of people in the rest of the developing and 3rd world countries.

You'll never see them in prominent public spaces, as they are stuck in entry level, low paying jobs. Although we do have a very small number who do succeed. But we don't talk about them or their gender. Easier in the big cities, but pity if you're stuck in a fundamentalist religious small town.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth, there is no room for hate speech. Racial hate speech still being used by my govt leaders and politicians for political mileage even till today and the LGBTQ+ groups get it even worse if they try to create any noise or recognition.

But free speech, however ignorant, (note this is on a macro level.) should never be stopped if it's not out of hate. After all how are you going to know just how informed or biased that person is if you don't allow them to speak their mind? From there you know if it's worth your time to engage the person or not.

Suppressing that will only lead to more hate and resentment by these people. This will only allow the far right politicians to take advantage of this group to rise to power. Just look at the rise of these far right groups in the western countries at each national election.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just look at the rise of these far right groups in the western countries at each national election.

The extremes of both sides have too much representation. It won't get any better unless people abandon the two-party system. The founding fathers predicted this.