The Successor by TGW/Kevin Cantrell

[TheGentlemanWake]

I take complete responsibility for this recent conversation. I should know better. I am trying to create a brand. Brands don't need to justify their prices to anyone. You certainly don't hear BMW or Tesla or Apple or CocaCola explain why their products cost what they do.

[Harvonsgard]

You forget that people know what profit Apple makes and therefore don't buy their products.
It's again weird to me to complain about drops and lower backer numbers when people invite you to win them over and you prefer to be all sulky based on a misunderstanding instead .
But I get it brands prefer the customer that comes with the least amount of effort.

[kevork]

It's hard to appease both the collector and the creator of the item being collected. To find harmony of pricing things appropriately and profitably never satisfies both parties for long.

I see people getting heated/defensive, but keep in mind you guys, it's really hard to tell tone through text, and this discussion might have been incredibly civil if we were all sitting at a table and discussing.

[Harvonsgard]

True, I try to maximize my profit (getting most for my money) and business tries the same (selling it for the highest possible price).

[Sir Toddalot]

Yes, no one buys apple. Explains why they have the top selling smart phone. I don’t know if this is intentional or not, but you are coming across a little condescending. Don’t know if it’s an issue of typing vs talking, or accidental. Just so you’re aware, that’s how it sounds to me.

[bdawg923]

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[montenzi]

100%! UC, save it, print it, frame it, place on your wall!

Prices? Please stop talking about prices as it does not matter! You will never know! Also, KS or any brand is an experience!!! It makes you happier, and you pay for it. Win-win! Ok. Let's say we have a $125 deck. Let's say we use a T11 $10 deck to compare. They spend <$2 to print one deck, and it's a 500% profit margin. Simple math: 125/5 = $25. Have you ever seen a $20-25 quote to produce one deck? I have seen it once. Add taxes and everything else. 75/5 = $15, and it's much easier to spend on one deck to produce. Then add what TGW mentioned in this quote and enjoy your life:

Your experience in the printing industry may help you understand production costs, but let me ask you... how much experience do you have in cultivating an audience? What about building email lists and social media following? What about incorporating businesses, cultivating experience and betterment through ongoing eduction? Running a websore? Working with and paying an accountant? Writing, Shooting, Producing and editing promotional videos? Finding artists? Negotiating contracts? Art directing designers? Finding manufacturers and vendors? Finding capital to make prototypes? Building KS campaigns? Answering emails? Customer Service? Creating relationships with influencers and collaborators? Managing partners? Running a campaign? Because SOMEHOW some people think that production costs are the only aspect that matter when prices are being set. What I find baffling is how some people dismiss the tremendous amount of work involved and then infer that the only thing that dictates prices is production costs.

[Harvonsgard]

Who was the first one to claim language is not sufficient enough to express thoughts? I'm with that person, haha.

I spell everything out for better understanding and to honour this fun moment in time, I'll add Harvonsgard's razor (Jup, that's a thing now) to my signature (I won't - because I dislike cluttered signatures and that Terence McKenna quote is going nowhere - or I will... I'll keep it montenzi with this one and keep it on the TBD level)

If my post doesn't make sense to you - you've misread it.

And yes, I can see the razor and the following coming of as condescending but fok it ...

You forget that (some) people know what profit Apple makes and therefore (decide to) don't buy their products (because they are not worth it for them, opposed to others, that have no clue about it or are perfectly fine with the pricing structure or simple buy them because they're the alternative of choice, when not wanting to have a google (aka Android) based product)

[Adamthinks]

You forget that people know what profit Apple makes and therefore don't buy their products.
It's again weird to me to complain about drops and lower backer numbers when people invite you to win them over and you prefer to be all sulky based on a misunderstanding instead .
But I get it brands prefer the customer that comes with the least amount of effort.

It really sounds like you're trying to score points instead of having a conversation at this point. I'd suggest stepping away and taking a breather.

[Harvonsgard]

I'm breathing. Am watching Lego reviews simultaniously.
I promise I don't try to (score points) but if people shoot themself in the foot ...
If others don't wanna know what I wanna know, cool.
If others don't wanna tell what I wanna know, cool again.
If others tell me to hush because it doesn't matter to them... yah, no, not on my watch. Time to take a breather for them. Or better put, cool with me as well, but don't expect me to stay quiet.

[Adamthinks]

.. yah, no, not on my watch. Time to take a breather for them. Or better put, cool with me as well, but don't expect me to stay quiet.

We're having a conversation about playing cards. It's not important. There's nothing you need to be "on watch" for. Regardless, you're not adding anything to the conversation by being combative.

[Harvonsgard]

Just leave if be . What are you trying to convince me off?
I'm having a conversation about the pricing structure of playing cards. Because as ridiculous as it sounds but that's part of my purchase decision of playing cards (and other products in general).
These cards are not well enough designed (to my personal taste) to let me forget about that and Omar had the chance to win me over or not.
He gave a reply that wasn't good enough for me and I expressed that. I didn't drag this topic for longer than necessary. Others have felt the urge to express their point of view (which I endorse) and I gave them a reply simple as that and all on the topic of playing cards (with comparisons to other products).

"On my watch" is an idiom mate. Don't hang yourself on my words but feel free to discuss my point.

[Adamthinks]

. What are you trying to convince me off?

I'm suggesting that you be more civil and less combative as this thread has gotten a bit out of hand. But you, for whatever reason, seem hellbent on not even acknowledging that you've done anything wrong. So I'll suggest it again. Please try harder to be more civil and less combative in the future. It promotes better discussion and a better community.

[Harvonsgard]

You're again hanging yourself on my words and as it seems my way of expressing myself.

...not even acknowledging that you've done anything wrong.

Spot on, we can agree a percent on that. Chalk it up under cultural or personal differences. I am glad we talked about that and are able to move on by agreeing to disagree what combative, civil, better community and better discussion means.

[Bikefanatic]

@Harvonsgard It's no problem people asking questions that they don't know or want to know compared to you who seems wanting to be right or telling people how to price their products.

Condescending or not, as a owner or creator yes, at times you do have to shut people down because they think they know it all when they have no skin in the game.

[Harvonsgard]

When did I ever tell someone how to price their products?
I tell people how to price their products, IF THEY WANT to have MY money, WHEN their design/product is not good enough TO ME SUBJECTIVELY, to make me go shut up and take my money.
I'm cool with everyone else going shut up and take my money mode, I LOVE THE FREE MARKET.
I'm here to make purchase descisions for myself, not massaging creator's scrotums or stroke their egos after they told me a lie. And yes, I'm aware that I could just take notes and stay quiet but I'm not going to do that and am not tired to repeat myself, no matter how often someone is trying to sell me a point of view I perfectly understand and simply disagree with.
J&T Wayfarers thread people talk prices all's cool because no sensitive creator around.
This thread people talk prices ...
And just be aware, if James (J&T) would come in here and telling me the gilded Wayfarers deck would be priced the way it is, because gilding is sooooooo much more expensive and there're only 100 decks made, I would dunk on him in the same way.

[sms69x]

Brands don't need to justify their prices to anyone. You certainly don't hear BMW or Tesla or Apple or CocaCola explain why their products cost what they do.

Where did you got this idea?? Brands go to extreme lengths to justify their prices to costumers, some even straight-up lie to them, and the above mentioned are no exception, just watch/read their press releases for new/up-coming products.
Its funny though, that you choose those brands, as those have one thing in common and that is OVERPRICE, nothing wrong with that is just that it kind show where you may want to be.

You put yourself in this position, you came here asking for suggestions/comments/advice to improve on your campaign, and that was given to the best of our capacities, now is only fair that we also get something in return. And one thing that most people using KS forget about is that KS is not a store, and is OUR money that is put on the line. So when I ask the reason why a item is priced at the price point it is, is because I want to know if my money is being well invested and not because I think you are just ripping people's money.
Nowadays everyone using KS just think of themselves as "business man" when they have done little to archive that status, but it seems that no one cares about it, people just keep throwing money at those persons.

I think you should take a break from this discussion, just enjoy your success on this campaign, focus on producing the items you promised and deliver them.

[GandalfPC]

1) Giving suggestions/comments/advice here does not imply that we get something in return

2) Pledging on kickstarter does not entitle us to anything more than what we pledged for

3) You may notice that TGW has taken a break from this discussion already, and I don’t blame him

This is why we can’t have nice things. Was anyone unclear they have been chasing Omar away unnecessarily?

[kevork]

It must be really hard to balance being a collector and a business owner trying to create something for collectors. I know that if I was creating a deck, I'd struggle to find that balance. I see how many designers separate themselves from the community and share minimal insight into the process.

I suppose pricing is one detail that Omar could withhold in the future, as it appears to cause a lot of conflict. A lot of us collectors are annoyed by the state of affairs with gilded decks being exploited by many campaigns for example (granted, a great way to support the artist and their work if you see it in that way).

I know when Lorenzo was figuring out pricing for decks prior to EOTO being released on his site, he did not release any specifics, just that they would be higher than his KS pricing. He priced the Intrepid Signature, a deck limited to 333, to $125. I bought one. Why? Because I love that deck and because it was worth it to me.

[GandalfPC]

While pricing (at least the justification for it) will doubtlessly be avoided by Omar in the future, I am more concerned that he may avoid the forum entirely.

Civility may have been the measure of polite discussion above, but perhaps it should have been politeness.

[Harvonsgard]

This is why we can’t have nice things.

We can't have nice thing because honesty and transparency aren't highly valued. And instead of taking into account that I misunderstand someone (after it was brought to attention unmistakingly) I get all sulky .
Sorry not sorry.

[GandalfPC]

I saw plenty of honesty - and perhaps more transparency than was wise, what I did not see was an abundance of politeness.

Reading over the discussion it is easy to find examples of things off color. I should not have to point them out.

There is a certain amount of off color that is appropriate for family banter, and a different measure for the treatment of houseguests. Lotrek, Lorenzo, and all creators should be treated with the respect we show guests, regardless of how often they visit or how much they may seem like family.

[Harvonsgard]

I get it is a hard concept to grasp but all humans are equal in my book and if there is a superlative for unapologetic than this is exactly who I am in that regard.
I talk to everyone in the same fashion (in the private realm) - more or less of course - be it a collector, creator, deck designer (wether I like or dislike their designs/decks), the fokkin' Chancellor of Austria or Pu Yi himself.
People who don't tell me shit get to know the polite (to my understanding and ability) Harvonsgard. People that tell me shit not so much .

[Adamthinks]

I get it is a hard concept to grasp but all humans are equal in my book and if there is a superlative for unapologetic than this is exactly who I am in that regard.
I talk to everyone in the same fashion (in the private realm) - more or less of course - be it a collector, creator, deck designer (wether I like or dislike their designs/decks), the fokkin' Chancellor of Austria or Pu Yi himself.
People who don't tell me shit get to know the polite (to my understanding and ability) Harvonsgard. People that tell me shit not so much .

Yes, all humans are equal, and all are deserving of basic civility and politeness, whether online or in real life. A lesson I hope you are willing to learn.

[GandalfPC]

I am not singling you out Harvonsgard when I refer to the desire for politeness, but this forum is a place for all to enjoy and the chasing away of creators is not serving that best.

Asking someone how much money they make has never been polite discussion - neither is continuing to pry on a topic that is obviously making someone uncomfortable.

We can make the claim that the Queen of England deserves no more respect than the poorest street urchin, but that implies that everyone deserves respect, not that no one does. That respect should not get thrown out the window the moment there is a perceived slight that opens said window.

Omar never had to explain the price for his deck, and his being baited into doing so was on us - the attacks that followed were also on us. Ignoring the obvious fact that was happening was also on us.

As far as who threw the first punch, I really don’t care - I just want cooler heads to prevail.


Making someone not feel comfortable or welcome here effects all of us.

[GandalfPC]

I will also add that after rereading Omars posts I find him remarkably restrained and polite - I can not say the same for many of the responses and follow up posts.

[sms69x]

Asking someone how much money they make has never been polite discussion - neither is continuing to pry on a topic that is obviously making someone uncomfortable.

I have to address this as I asked directly why a deck was priced so high. It was never my intention to try to find how how much profit is he making on that deck, what I wanted to know was if there was any particular process in the deck production that would justify such a high price (there are a lot of features and thins on that deck), and in that regard a Lotrek price, but we know why Lotrek charges what he charges he is very transparent about it, and still he doesn't need to say that he is making a 1% or 500% profit, and no one ever requested that from him. But the silence from TGW spoke volumes to me.

Another thing that bothers me is your (GandalfPC) constant defense of TGW, I don't see you going to other threads where prices are being discussed and joked at and have the same posture, somehow TGW seems to have a special status that I'm not aware of and thus need to be constantly "protected" by you. And this is particularly annoying when you are a Moderator on this forum, so when I see your posts defending TGW and POLITELY asking people to stop it the only thing that comes to my mind is "ok, you need to stop this, either blindly throw your money at this guy or you'll be banned from the forum".

[kevork]

Asking someone how much money they make has never been polite discussion - neither is continuing to pry on a topic that is obviously making someone uncomfortable.

I have to address this as I asked directly why a deck was priced so high. It was never my intention to try to find how how much profit is he making on that deck, what I wanted to know was if there was any particular process in the deck production that would justify such a high price (there are a lot of features and thins on that deck), and in that regard a Lotrek price, but we know why Lotrek charges what he charges he is very transparent about it, and still he doesn't need to say that he is making a 1% or 500% profit, and no one ever requested that from him. But the silence from TGW spoke volumes to me.

Another thing that bothers me is your (GandalfPC) constant defense of TGW, I don't see you going to other threads where prices are being discussed and joked at and have the same posture, somehow TGW seems to have a special status that I'm not aware of and thus need to be constantly "protected" by you. And this is particularly annoying when you are a Moderator on this forum, so when I see your posts defending TGW and POLITELY asking people to stop it the only thing that comes to my mind is "ok, you need to stop this, either blindly throw your money at this guy or you'll be banned from the forum".

I like the idea of learning what goes behind the production and all that, but pricing for decks is quite arbitrary these days for such high end items based on what the perceived market value is.

To your second point, I took it as more of trying to resort to politeness and civility, not protecting/defending anyone. I mean this all goes to show that we are all interpreting words and sometimes the intentions are quite different than the impact they are having on each of us.

[hsbc]

Another thing that bothers me is your (GandalfPC) constant defense of TGW, I don't see you going to other threads where prices are being discussed and joked at and have the same posture, somehow TGW seems to have a special status that I'm not aware of and thus need to be constantly "protected" by you. And this is particularly annoying when you are a Moderator on this forum, so when I see your posts defending TGW and POLITELY asking people to stop it the only thing that comes to my mind is "ok, you need to stop this, either blindly throw your money at this guy or you'll be banned from the forum".

No other threads have both A) the creator regularly participating and B) the same level of vitriol. We're not "protecting" anyone but we are trying to make and keep UC welcoming and friendly, and lots of the comments over the past few pages have been... well, not that No one is going to get banned for not supporting a KS campaign, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're lucky here to have lots of designers show up on the forum, and the general combativeness in this thread I fear will be off-putting not just to TGW but to other creators too

[GandalfPC]

I have nothing against us discussing prices, nor did I have anything against you asking why the price was so high - nor am I aware of another thread where a creator was being treated in the manner that was seen here - had I been aware of such I would have said something.

No one has been threatened with being banned, nor has anyone received a warning. That does not mean I cannot discuss the topic of how chasing away creators does not serve the users of this forum.

My defense of TGW is hardly out of line - he was being stressed in a manner that I did not see fitting and I attempted to point that out in hopes that people might lay off.

“one thing in common and that is OVERPRICE, nothing wrong with that is just that it kind show where you may want to be.” would qualify as passive aggressive at best, not polite, for example.

If I wanted to say “you need to stop this or you will be banned” that is what I would say, instead I say that if you continue doing this then you will chase away creators needlessly and make the forum poorer for it, and that you are making choices for everyone when you do this.

(I posted this at the same time as hsbc’s post above, so forgive any reiteration)