The problem with Kickstarter

[MagikFingerz]

I guess people don't have thousands saved up or laying around. If someone did have full funding, I can understand not investing all your money. If a deck takes $12,000-$15,000 to make, I can see putting in half and then backers can make the rest. A $8,000 fund goal for cards isn't nothing. So when people know the company/person creates good rapport, then it could probably be good and more profitable to use all their own money. It's similar to real estate.

The thing is though, project starters can set whatever goal they want and their backers have no way of knowing how much they have on their own either to supplement the project or as a safety cushion if shit hits the fan. And the less they actually need, the less reason there is to put it on kickstarter in the first place. Which is why I think Mike's advice about staying away from kickstarter decks with a goal less than his estimate is a good one.

[4pmdesigner]

I guess people don't have thousands saved up or laying around. If someone did have full funding, I can understand not investing all your money. If a deck takes $12,000-$15,000 to make, I can see putting in half and then backers can make the rest. A $8,000 fund goal for cards isn't nothing. So when people know the company/person creates good rapport, then it could probably be good and more profitable to use all their own money. It's similar to real estate.

The thing is though, project starters can set whatever goal they want and their backers have no way of knowing how much they have on their own either to supplement the project or as a safety cushion if shit hits the fan. And the less they actually need, the less reason there is to put it on kickstarter in the first place. Which is why I think Mike's advice about staying away from kickstarter decks with a goal less than his estimate is a good one.

Oh I absolutely agree. Everytime I see a new project go up with a ridiculously low goal, claimed USPCC, I nearly pass out. The good thing is, we all have the choice to just not back them. This last deck, diamond cut or something, is a good example of someone who quickly got intimidated once they realized the real costs and risks. At least he did the noble thing and held back til he had things in order.

[BMPokerworld]

I guess people don't have thousands saved up or laying around. If someone did have full funding, I can understand not investing all your money. If a deck takes $12,000-$15,000 to make, I can see putting in half and then backers can make the rest. A $8,000 fund goal for cards isn't nothing. So when people know the company/person creates good rapport, then it could probably be good and more profitable to use all their own money. It's similar to real estate.

The thing is though, project starters can set whatever goal they want and their backers have no way of knowing how much they have on their own either to supplement the project or as a safety cushion if shit hits the fan. And the less they actually need, the less reason there is to put it on kickstarter in the first place. Which is why I think Mike's advice about staying away from kickstarter decks with a goal less than his estimate is a good one.

Most of the people on Kickstarter have no money of their own or do not want to use it, that is why they are using Kickstarter. How many people who did not get funding just disappear? Most if not all. If they relaunch the project after it failed, what do they do? They immediately go to some back room printer and not USPCC. That tells you they are only in this for the money.

Thanks!1

[Bikefanatic]

For example, a person knows it cost $8000 to completely fund a project for whatever quantity. They make the funding goal $15,000 so when they reach it, they think they pocketed an extra $7000 but that depends on how much extra funding they get from backers?

[BMPokerworld]

For example, a person knows it cost $8000 to completely fund a project for whatever quantity. They make the funding goal $15,000 so when they reach it, they think they pocketed an extra $7000 but that depends on how much extra funding they get from backers?

I have no idea what you are saying. Most people ask what they need or think they need, to fund the project. Most people will not ask for excess because you then run the risk of the project not being funded. Between $10,000 - $11,000 is the minimum funding requirements to fund a standard Bicycle branded deck, without a creator using any of their own money.

I believe it should be assumed they are not using their own money because if they tell you they are, so they could entice you to pledge and they don't, we will end up with another deck on the proverbial rocks.

Thanks

[DelMagic]

Every year, tens-of-thousands (hundreds maybe?) walk into a bank, credit union, savings-and-loan, etc. in order to borrow $10,000-$30,000 for the purchase of perhaps one of these: automobile, boat, home remodelling project, vacation, loan consolidation, college, etc.

This doesn't mean they get approved. If you have tried to get a loan in the past 5 years for more than $1k you'd see that immediately.

In 2012 the U.S. auto industry sold 14.4 million units versus 12.7 million in 2011. How many peole do you think paid cash for versus a whole lot of financing?

Money-losing auto sales are skyrocketing yet people are having trouble getting money? I doubt it - in a general sense. Of course the financially unstable or your average 18-22 year old may have trouble, but that is to be expected and we ought to be glad such checks are in place. These kinds of checks are not in place on Kickstarter.

Are deck designers by nature financially inept or insolvent? If so, I would like to know that before I send my money their way. Can we have mandatory statements on Kickstarter like this:
"I attempted to finance this project as a business venture, but I was turned down for these reasons. All of these risks are still in place, but on Kickstarter I don't have anyone to stop me because of them, so now I can move this deck forward. Granted, on Kickstarter I have even less of an impetus to see this project through than I did with a traditional loan, but why should that matter with such an awesome deck!! How much can I put you down for bro!?

[BMPokerworld]

Every year, tens-of-thousands (hundreds maybe?) walk into a bank, credit union, savings-and-loan, etc. in order to borrow $10,000-$30,000 for the purchase of perhaps one of these: automobile, boat, home remodelling project, vacation, loan consolidation, college, etc.

This doesn't mean they get approved. If you have tried to get a loan in the past 5 years for more than $1k you'd see that immediately.

In 2012 the U.S. auto industry sold 14.4 million units versus 12.7 million in 2011. How many peole do you think paid cash for versus a whole lot of financing?

Money-losing auto sales are skyrocketing yet people are having trouble getting money? I doubt it - in a general sense. Of course the financially unstable or your average 18-22 year old may have trouble, but that is to be expected and we ought to be glad such checks are in place. These kinds of checks are not in place on Kickstarter.

Are deck designers by nature financially inept or insolvent? If so, I would like to know that before I send my money their way. Can we have mandatory statements on Kickstarter like this:
"I attempted to finance this project as a business venture, but I was turned down for these reasons. All of these risks are still in place, but on Kickstarter I don't have anyone to stop me because of them, so now I can move this deck forward. Granted, on Kickstarter I have even less of an impetus to see this project through than I did with a traditional loan, but why should that matter with such an awesome deck!! How much can I put you down for bro!?

They are mostly young and don't have the money. In addition, most could careless one way or the other about playing cards. They are only creating a project because they see it as a way to make quick money. Take a look at the new rabbit deck. He barely has anything done. Why is he rushing to Kickstarter and this forum? Because he wants to jump on the band wagon before it leaves town, period.

Thanks!

[DelMagic]

In reality, no one is going to take out a loan, with the type of interest banks are charging, risk their "collateral" (most people require collateral depending on their credit) and use it towards a deck of cards. There's a thin line between confidence and arrogance, and one can put you in serious debt.

Baloney. People are taking out loans all the time for a myriad of things they want at high interest rates. Credit cards ho!

It's all a matter of priorities. If someone's priority is a deck, then they'll forego that new car, the fall wardrobe and/or skiing in Colorado to make it happen.

If you can't swing it this year, and instead you have to SAVE YOUR OWN MONEY money for 3-4 years before producing your deck, then wait. Make it a grand slam. Plenty of people in the last 75-years have had to wait a long time before getting their own businesses going. Use the time wisely.

That's what I want to see. My opinion is surely not held many given the growth of KS. I"ve backed a few decks, but now I'm out.

[DelMagic]

One thing everyone KEEPS forgetting is that KS provides something, self financed decks can't do without spending MORE money that you don't have...MARKETING. .

I didn't forget it. I mentioned it in my post.

Do you think Tendril, Brimstone, The Grid would've sold out that fast without that type of marketing?

I doubt it, but so what? Are we just concerned with decks that sell out quickly now? Is that the only acceptable model? If you have a good product and you have a good knowledge of your market, you can move your decks. If you don't have the marketing know-how, then that's another good reason you ought to avoid producing decks. Even on Kickstarter poor marketing has doomed some decks - I wish even more had never made their targets.

It's easy to be on one side of the coin and complain about KS when you're not spending the endless hours of work and stress trying to design a product that'll sell. Let alone hope people will even discover it.

What you have forgotten is that Kickstarter is not selling its backers a product - it's selling a promise. If you have a quality product (in solid, 3-D form) to sell, I'm sure it can be sold.

[walrus]

The entire thing is very unfortunate. As I stated previous the first deck I pledged for was the VORTEX DECK. At first I was going to cease any further finances on KS project. After reading all the rude excuses by the Creator of the VORTEX DECK I realized the the VORTEX DECK was created by a man, Alex Yusupov using an alias of Alex Isaacs (or something to that effect) and I chalked it up to him being an untrustworthy rude man. I was hoping he was an anomaly and I continued backing projects. I must say I have had some good luck with a lot of DECKS and got quite a few I am very pleased with. KS is a great platform for artists to get there work and name out to the general public. Look what it did for Uusi and several other members here. I remember Rus saying this forum only represents a small amount of the money brought into playing card projects. That may be true but many of us spread the word to our friends and family who in turn put money into the project. I hate to say it but I brought over a dozen people who are not members of this forum into funding the VORTEX DECK, most of them gambling buddies or fellow magicians. The majority of them are still waiting for their VORTEX DECKS. That is one reason I was so disturbed about the recent CCC debacle. I I now only fund people with a successful track record and I realize now even that is no guarantee. It is unfortunate many honest guys trying to get their work noticeable and perhaps make a few bucks are going to be effected. I see a number of DECKS I would really like for my collection but when putting money on a DECK becomes a scrap shoot I no longer have interest. I hope to see Uusi leave KS and print independently but even if not I will still back them, 4pm designs and of course the upcoming imperial deck. I will back CCC again as soon as I hear everyone received there refunds. If I see any regulars here try to get a DECK funded I will certainly support them but that is about it. Did I mention I will back any follow up decks to the VORTEX DECK. Let us all hope a VORTEX DECK 2 is on the way.

[BMPokerworld]

In reality, no one is going to take out a loan, with the type of interest banks are charging, risk their "collateral" (most people require collateral depending on their credit) and use it towards a deck of cards. There's a thin line between confidence and arrogance, and one can put you in serious debt.

Baloney. People are taking out loans all the time for a myriad of things they want at high interest rates. Credit cards ho!

It's all a matter of priorities. If someone's priority is a deck, then they'll forego that new car, the fall wardrobe and/or skiing in Colorado to make it happen.

If you can't swing it this year, and instead you have to SAVE YOUR OWN MONEY money for 3-4 years before producing your deck, then wait. Make it a grand slam. Plenty of people in the last 75-years have had to wait a long time before getting their own businesses going. Use the time wisely.

That's what I want to see. My opinion is surely not held many given the growth of KS. I"ve backed a few decks, but now I'm out.

I 100% agree. Most people are only doing it because they are risking NOTHING but their time. If it doesn't get funded or if they don't feel like fulfilling the project AFTER it gets funded, they just disappear. Most people don't go to banks because banks want you to have skin in the game and most deck creators either don't want to risk their own money or in most cases, don't have ANY money to risk. Lets face it, it isn't a lot of money to come up with to create a deck. This is especially true when you read their BIOS. They want you to believe they are IBM but can't come up with the money right?

I believe kickstarter has a place and that place should be for people who want to fund a capital intensive project, like a movie or the watch that downloads different apps. They could never get financing through banks for the large sums they needed, on such risky projects. But to go to Kickstarter to fund a T-shirt campaign? Give me a break. Those people are just using Kickstarter as a store and are not using it as it was intended for: To fund someone who has a unique and creative, capital intensive idea, where obtaining traditional bank financing would be very difficult, if not impossible. Needing $7600 +/- for a deck of cards does not qualify in my opinion. I also believe an established business can also use Kickstarter on occasion, for exposure as Russell said, but I don't believe it should be used project after project, for the same item.

The problem is for every 4PM designs, Russell of CCC, Encarded and a few others, who have proved to be both talented and professional at what they do, you end up dealing with too many no talent artists, who have little or no interest in been professional in their business dealings.

Thanks!

[Bikefanatic]

For example, a person knows it cost $8000 to completely fund a project for whatever quantity. They make the funding goal $15,000 so when they reach it, they think they pocketed an extra $7000 but that depends on how much extra funding they get from backers?

I have no idea what you are saying. Most people ask what they need or think they need, to fund the project. Most people will not ask for excess because you then run the risk of the project not being funded. Between $10,000 - $11,000 is the minimum funding requirements to fund a standard Bicycle branded deck, without a creator using any of their own money.

I believe it should be assumed they are not using their own money because if they tell you they are, so they could entice you to pledge and they don't, we will end up with another deck on the proverbial rocks.

Thanks

Yo Brooke Michael, that example was a way I thought that people would try to make money but I know you already broke it down. If a person really cared about making a quality deck, maybe they would've put some kind of money along with it. One project particular only need $7,000 so it's a possibility they used some of their money or none at all. *shrugs* That's what I would probably do.

[BMPokerworld]

For example, a person knows it cost $8000 to completely fund a project for whatever quantity. They make the funding goal $15,000 so when they reach it, they think they pocketed an extra $7000 but that depends on how much extra funding they get from backers?

I have no idea what you are saying. Most people ask what they need or think they need, to fund the project. Most people will not ask for excess because you then run the risk of the project not being funded. Between $10,000 - $11,000 is the minimum funding requirements to fund a standard Bicycle branded deck, without a creator using any of their own money.

I believe it should be assumed they are not using their own money because if they tell you they are, so they could entice you to pledge and they don't, we will end up with another deck on the proverbial rocks.

Thanks

Yo Brooke Michael, that example was a way I thought that people would try to make money but I know you already broke it down. If a person really cared about making a quality deck, maybe they would've put some kind of money along with it. One project particular only need $7,000 so it's a possibility they used some of their money or none at all. *shrugs* That's what I would probably do.

That really is the problem, you really don't know if they are using their own money or not until it is too late and you get scammed. Since most of them lie through their teeth, I would say assume they are not.

Thanks!

Mike

[vmagic]

I'm starting to get nervous about Albino Dragon, they are on their 4th project on Kickstarter now and have only delivered one of them, no word on the White Rabbit or Synthesis yet, this is getting out of hand. They have gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars and haven't been able to deliver a couple of decks!

[elcyciB]

I'm starting to get nervous about Albino Dragon, they are on their 4th project on Kickstarter now and have only delivered one of them, no word on the White Rabbit or Synthesis yet, this is getting out of hand. They have gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars and haven't been able to deliver a couple of decks!

Didn't order synthesis, got my White Rabbit decks a few days ago

[BMPokerworld]

Some people have posted receiving their white rabbit decks. Have you contacted them?

Thanks!

[badpete69]

Victor

White Rabbit decks have provided many updates....Please make sure you read them. On May 7th he updated that the cards had arrived.

On May 23rd he provided this update

I received word from my fulfillment center today that they actually started shipping domestic orders yesterday. I didn't realize they were going to start or I would have posted this sooner.

If it goes anything like last time, these will all be shipped out by Monday or Tuesday of next week and then we will start on the international orders.

I know a lot of folks have received their decks and hopefully you will get yours soon enough

[Paul Middleton]

Baloney. People are taking out loans all the time for a myriad of things they want at high interest rates. Credit cards ho!

It's all a matter of priorities. If someone's priority is a deck, then they'll forego that new car, the fall wardrobe and/or skiing in Colorado to make it happen.

If you can't swing it this year, and instead you have to SAVE YOUR OWN MONEY money for 3-4 years before producing your deck, then wait. Make it a grand slam. Plenty of people in the last 75-years have had to wait a long time before getting their own businesses going. Use the time wisely.

That's what I don't get... for years, decades or more - people have been risking high interest loans for personal and business interests. You' hit the nail on the head. Kickstarter seems to make people now think it's 'normal' to not risk anything to produce a product.

The reality is - if most businesses risked their own money and went to banks to get a loan rather than using crowdfunding, you probably wouldn't have seen the issues we have seen with projects not coming through. Banks simply wouldn't allow a risking proposition to gain funding. Most that have had kickstarter issues, would have fallen way short of the criteria that a bank would have set for a loan - not least a detailed business plan.

[BMPokerworld]

While everything we have said in this thread is true, it all comes down to the backers. If people are going to continue backing project that take forever to get fulfilled, then this will continue to happen. You hear countless excuses from backers trying to explain away and defending the project creators. The more they allow a deck creator months and months to ship a product, the more this will happen.

Not exactly sure why someone who took your money on Kickstarter is allowed 5 months to ship out their decks to pledges and that is OK, but if i don't ship my orders the next day, I am a horrible business man and I am trying to steal their money.

Thanks!

[Paul Middleton]

Not exactly sure why someone who took your money on Kickstarter is allowed 5 months to ship out their decks to pledges and that is OK, but if i don't ship my orders the next day, I am a horrible business man and I am trying to steal their money.

A horrible business man and trying to steal their money is perhaps a little extreme, unless you are quoting a previous communication with a customer than fair enough!

You're right though, but Kickstarter gives the impression of security - or at least it does to those that are only casual backers. JumpeStartCity seems to be taking an interesting viewpoint - but i'm not sure how seriously it's going to be taken.

[sprouts1115]

JPMiddleton - "but i'm not sure how seriously it's going to be taken." Not very to me. If you look at jumstartcity.com strategy http://jumpstartcity.com/help.php#rank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It has some flaws....

[dcell59]

You're right though, but Kickstarter gives the impression of security - or at least it does to those that are only casual backers.

That's true. I started backing projects on Kickstarter because I thought that by paying with a credit card through Amazon I would have some kind of protection against fraud. Kickstarter doesn't even try. They don't provide any incentives to get projects to communicate or ship. They don't provide any tools to help the project creators plan, manage, or track their progress. They don't even provide simple tools for helping inform the backers about shipping. They could provide amazing software for that 5%, but they provide nothing but a platform.

The hanfree lawsuit was a good step towards preventing fraud, but I think people give it more credit than it deserves. My understanding is that the lawsuit didn't actually result in Seth Quest going bankrupt - that was going to happen anyway - and it didn't get the lawyer's money back. The lawsuit just made Seth reveal the information about where the money went.

I've been wondering whether or not it would be possible to handle things differently with the creators of Ultraviolet and Core, since they have admitted to having the products but just aren't shipping them. Could they be accused of having stolen goods or with credit card fraud? How about tax fraud, since they should have paid taxes on the items they still have in inventory and haven't shipped? With Core, the university that the creator attends might consider this to be an honor code violation.

[sprouts1115]

dcell59 - "simple tools for helping inform the backers about shipping." Thats a big one... Maybe "Ultraviolet and Core" thought shipping was not part of the equation. Lets spend are so called profits; We can sell the surplus decks on line and pay for the shipping later. Now all of our so called profits are spent and deck sells are now our tit.

[deleter]

platform to sell their items

Sounds like the problem is the way people approach Kickstarter. It's not just a convenient pre-order storefront. IMO the entire point of Kickstarter is to fund the little guy and risky projects that the banks wouldn't touch. Not because every endeavor is going to work out, but because the ones that do represent a great thing that would have never existed if a 'crowd' had never taken the risk with that creator. I kickstarted Core and Asylum, the second at the lowest level b/c I felt it was pretty risky, but you know what I'm not bitter at all. Why? Because I also funded Uusi with Bohemia and those cards are absolutely stunning to me. I would never have acquired those if not through Kickstarter, nor the numbered and signed poster. This is just one of a handful of products I have gotten through kickstarter that I can't be happier with. Some of these KS creators have even gone on to creating fully fledged companies that would never have happened without it. If you're not in a position to kiss your money and throw it into the wind hoping something comes back, then stay away from Kickstarter. Wait for the decks to come to resellers. If on the other hand you don't mind losing money to the duds to also fund the diamonds in the rough, then KS is the place for people like you and I. If the number of scammers increases and become harder to avoid, then back away for a while and let it cool down. The strategy of "only fund reputable companies and repeat KS" seems so backwards to me. KS is about funding new ideas and new people. In fact I've even heard complaints because people come back to KS rather than using the seed money made from the last round to start a full company.

[BMPokerworld]

platform to sell their items

Sounds like the problem is the way people approach Kickstarter. It's not just a convenient pre-order storefront. IMO the entire point of Kickstarter is to fund the little guy and risky projects that the banks wouldn't touch. Not because every endeavor is going to work out, but because the ones that do represent a great thing that would have never existed if a 'crowd' had never taken the risk with that creator. I kickstarted Core and Asylum, the second at the lowest level b/c I felt it was pretty risky, but you know what I'm not bitter at all. Why? Because I also funded Uusi with Bohemia and those cards are absolutely stunning to me. I would never have acquired those if not through Kickstarter, nor the numbered and signed poster. This is just one of a handful of products I have gotten through kickstarter that I can't be happier with. Some of these KS creators have even gone on to creating fully fledged companies that would never have happened without it. If you're not in a position to kiss your money and throw it into the wind hoping something comes back, then stay away from Kickstarter. Wait for the decks to come to resellers. If on the other hand you don't mind losing money to the duds to also fund the diamonds in the rough, then KS is the place for people like you and I. If the number of scammers increases and become harder to avoid, then back away for a while and let it cool down. The strategy of "only fund reputable companies and repeat KS" seems so backwards to me. KS is about funding new ideas and new people. In fact I've even heard complaints because people come back to KS rather than using the seed money made from the last round to start a full company.

IMO, your statement is exactly the problem and why people keep getting burned. First, you are not investing in a company as you seem to be saying. You are investing in a product. Once that product gets funded, there is absolutely no reason for the product not be delivered, unless the project creator is a thief, scammer and a con-artist. If they have not done sufficient research and develop problems AFTER they receive funding, then they shouldn't have started the campaign to begin with because they lack sufficient business acumen. Saying it is OK to get burned AFTER the campaign has been funded and the creator has received the money, is ridiculous. They have everything they asked for at that point and have no reason to not deliver what they promised and even more importantly, what the backer PAID for.

You comparison in trying to get a bank to invest in your product, is not relevant and you are comparing apples and oranges. People who invest in companies have many more failures than they do successes, but the successes, hopefully, will return significant profit to the investor above and beyond the losses they have with the companies that did not work out. That is not what Kickstater is or does. You have no upside beyond your product that you have PAID for UPFRONT. Basically, that is all you are doing. You are advancing funds to someone that doesn't have them to get their product produced. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks!

[CBJ]

The reason I stepped away from KS is simple... it doesn't make sense for an international buyer to pledge.

Most times I can get them cheaper in the aftermarket.. and quicker than the people that actually pledged!


Here are some examples.. using BMPoker as a reference.

Bicycle Eclipse
$10 + $5 international shipping on KS
$9.95 on BMP

Bicycle Genesis
$8 + $5 international shipping on KS
$9.95 on BMP

Bicycle Black Tie
$7 + $4 international shipping on KS
$9.95 on BMP

Bicycle Allure
$7 + $7 international shipping on KS
$9.95 on BMP

Bicycle Lumberjacks
$8 + $7 international shipping on KS
$9.95 on BMP

Bicycle Amazing Adventurers
$10 + $8 international shipping on KS
$9.95 on BMP


And the most recent...
Bicycle Grid 2.0
$8 + $6 international shipping on KS
$10.95 on BMP


Now, of course I have to pay shipping at BMP.. but... I can combine it with other decks I need. TRUST ME.. it's way cheaper than backing the deck on KS, and I don't have to tie up my money for 3-6-9 months on the hopes that this KS creator doesn't fu*k me over.

Also! In these examples I used the cheapest KS pledges.. the "early birds". If a international buyer didn't' pledge in those first 100 people.. they wold pay even MORE.

AND... I can use a discount code at BMP (or other re-sellers i.e the1eyedjack), and same even more.

In the examples above... if I would have purchased all of those decks from KS, it would have cost me $100 (including shipping)
If I bought them from BMP (in one order), it would cost me $70.65-$7.06 (discount)=$63.59 + shipping




And finally.. it's faster . I can buy a lot of these decks at BMP before most backers get their decks.. sometimes weeks/months before you will actually get your KS decks.


I'm done with KS, but I wish all the creators the best. I'll still buy your decks, just not from the KS site.

CBJ

[dcell59]

dcell59 - "simple tools for helping inform the backers about shipping." Thats a big one... Maybe "Ultraviolet and Core" thought shipping was not part of the equation. Lets spend are so called profits; We can sell the surplus decks on line and pay for the shipping later. Now all of our so called profits are spent and deck sells are now our tit.

But they haven't sold the surplus decks online. If they were actually doing that, at least it would be progress. Instead, they are just sitting on them and saying nothing.

[dcell59]

If you're not in a position to kiss your money and throw it into the wind hoping something comes back, then stay away from Kickstarter.

That has become true, but that's not how Kickstarter and the project creators present things. Many creators will make it sound like they have done all of the design and prototyping, made all of the contacts, and just need the money to finally make the items. This is how Kickstarter is supposed to work. I completely stopped backing projects last fall when I got tired of seeing projects being run so badly. It would be one thing if people actually tried and failed, but so many of our complaints are about people who should have succeeded and then just gave up.

Keep in mind that most of the complaints here aren't about projects where the project didn't get made - they are about projects where the people just never got their rewards, or got them after a really long time of waiting without any progress reports. There are people who haven't received their Vortex, Revision1, Spectrum, Ultraviolet, Core, and other decks, as well as many other non-card items, where the products do exist. It's not fair to play the "investment" card in this kind of situation. This is completely different from a case where the project creator figured out that they just weren't going to make things happen, but spent all of the money they were supposed to save for manufacturing and shipping on "design activities" that should have been done before the project even went to Kickstarter.

[dcell59]

IMO, your statement is exactly the problem and why people keep getting burned. First, you are not investing in a company as you seem to be saying. You are investing in a product. Once that product gets funded, there is absolutely no reason for the product not be delivered, unless the project creator is a thief, scammer and a con-artist. If they have not done sufficient research and develop problems AFTER they receive funding, then they shouldn't have started the campaign to begin with because they lack sufficient business acumen. Saying it is OK to get burned AFTER the campaign has been funded and the creator has received the money, is ridiculous. They have everything they asked for at that point and have no reason to not deliver what they promised and even more importantly, what the backer PAID for.

You comparison in trying to get a bank to invest in your product, is not relevant and you are comparing apples and oranges. People who invest in companies have many more failures than they do successes, but the successes, hopefully, will return significant profit to the investor above and beyond the losses they have with the companies that did not work out. That is not what Kickstater is or does. You have no upside beyond your product that you have PAID for UPFRONT. Basically, that is all you are doing. You are advancing funds to someone that doesn't have them to get their product produced. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks!

Well said! Also, keep in mind that when people invest in companies, those companies aren't just an idea. I have been involved in creating startup companies, and you don't go to investors and say "Yeah, we'd like to create a company to do this thing and we'd like some money so we can get started". You go in with a business plan, designs, and prototypes. The only thing you should need is money to get things actually made and shipped. Another thing is when you get that money you don't just get to go and spend it however you want - the investors get to be involved in that. A real company - even a private startup - has to be accountable to its investors or it's fraud.

[deleter]

IMO, your statement is exactly the problem and why people keep getting burned. First, you are not investing in a company as you seem to be saying. You are investing in a product. Once that product gets funded, there is absolutely no reason for the product not be delivered, unless the project creator is a thief, scammer and a con-artist. If they have not done sufficient research and develop problems AFTER they receive funding, then they shouldn't have started the campaign to begin with because they lack sufficient business acumen. Saying it is OK to get burned AFTER the campaign has been funded and the creator has received the money, is ridiculous. They have everything they asked for at that point and have no reason to not deliver what they promised and even more importantly, what the backer PAID for.

Sure they have everything they asked for, but that doesn't imply they asked for enough, nor does it imply they were truly ready to launch the kickstarter. I totally get you are investing in a product, but it is an investment meaning it can fail. I guess from the first Kickstarter I backed I never held the illusion I was simply buying a product. I understood these are not proven businesspeople (who *still* make mistakes and miscalculations) nor finished products just waiting to be shipped. Thinking that crap is never going to hit the fan is what is ridiculous. Also I never tried to justify "scammers", I said if you as a backer feel there are too many scammers then sure, back off. But I've seen projects fail for other reasons even after getting funded, whether its the fact the person didn't do the shipping calculations or what have you. I honestly can't believe people approach Kickstarter as just another store, its ridiculous.

You comparison in trying to get a bank to invest in your product, is not relevant and you are comparing apples and oranges. People who invest in companies have many more failures than they do successes, but the successes, hopefully, will return significant profit to the investor above and beyond the losses they have with the companies that did not work out. That is not what Kickstater is or does. You have no upside beyond your product that you have PAID for UPFRONT. Basically, that is all you are doing. You are advancing funds to someone that doesn't have them to get their product produced. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks!

I was not writing a comparison. Other people in this thread commented that people who can't go to a bank to get an initial investment go to kickstarter, while others were saying that Kickstarters should be more guaranteed. My point was if we push Kickstarter all the way to that point, we've pretty much closed off the people who couldn't have gotten a business investment and completely missed the point. And while I technically agree with your point, ideologically I don't. In my mind kickstarter is about getting someone's project off the ground. You could view their project as a single deck of cards, but personally I would hope that most KS campaigns are trying to build something lasting. Get enough money to start a proper playing card company rather than coming back to KS every time. Perhaps it is hard to understand this mentality if you only look at playing card kickstarters, but with a lot of other kickstarters higher tier rewards are more about giving the creator more money to achieve their dream than it is about getting more product.

So to bring it back down to the ground, yes I think its perfectly acceptable to give money to someone where you are risking that they didn't do all their homework and calculations. Who maybe didn't look into every minute detail. Honestly other than a scant few KS post-mortems you can read and learn from there isn't a whole lot of how-to guides. A lot of this is very new to people who haven't previously run a business of any sort. And I think it would be a big loss to push these types out of KS because I have seen people grow tremendously in the trial-by-fire and manage to ship their rewards too.

edit: You know there are other reasons that KS run into hiccups that run beyond doing due diligence. Kickstarters that way overfund resulting in mfring changes for one. Again maybe not an issue with cards, but I backed a KS for a cast iron product that ended up getting enough backers the creator had to changes forges b/c the forge he was originally planning to use couldn't handle the # of orders. Similar experience with a slim wallet I backed. That project also got extremely overfunded and ended up taking several months to get a new mfr lined up and making all the wallets. I went with a color that was released only a month behind schedule, but I'm pretty sure some backers are *still* receiving theirs like 6 months later. I think it is naive to say that it's some tried and true thing to launch a kickstarter and know exactly what you're doing. Perhaps playing cards _can_ be more of an exact science if they stick exclusively to cards (no chips or dice or posters or w/e), use USPCC, and make sure to calcluate out the shipping costs beforehand. But that is probably the 1% case for KS. Most include hidden factors and unexpected scenarios that would be impossible, impractical, or insanely tedious to ferret out.