The Successor by TGW/Kevin Cantrell

[Sir Toddalot]

By the way, Kevin and I both agree that the Imperial Black is not up to snuff. We are planning some improvements to the tuck box and the cards that I believe will bring it in line with the rest of the offering.

I’m happy to hear that! I really love the black and gold of your last 2 campaigns, but something about this one didn’t do it for me as much. Glad it wasn’t just me!

[kasuma99]

i am glad i love the Black and Green the most in this campaign and both can be initially pledged for and added-on!

[rousselle]

Mini feels gimmicky and in general overdone at this point. Takes away from the regal feel of the other decks and most importantly, it doesn't fit within the sarcophagus which makes it weird for me but ... if the demand is there.

My one, valid, counterargument is that the heirs to the throne are often tiny children--and should be represented in the lineage!

like a little prince or princess deck. quite a cute take on it. actually quite fitting.

Yes, the idea would be to take the Anointed joker and replace the coronation scene on the standard tuck with this artwork. Changing the word Anointed for the Successor ofc BUT ITS a very lofty stretch goal. It will be a good problem to have. DSC09280.jpg

Well, *I*, for one, want the mini decks to come to fruition.

And, I can't help but think of that epic poem: "Oh pointy birds, oh pointy, pointy. Anoint my head, anointy nointy."

[Eric Lee]

The Mini deck is a great idea for those who can't afford the white deck for the designs. Love what Lorenzo did for the QM deck in EOTO so that no one missed out that deck who really wanted one for the design.

[Fenrir]

i am glad i love the Black and Green the most in this campaign and both can be initially pledged for and added-on!

Black and Green are my favourite as well! Excited to see the changes for the black deck.

[sms69x]

Unfortunately I keep finding reasons for not pledging!! I just noticed that the White deck comes with a sleeve with a metal thing... Will be, by any chance, the possibility to get that deck without that sleeve?

On another note, just noticed that you have the 1300+ spots for the Dynastinae Rex Edition, though in the description it says only 777 will be produced, so it was either a typo and 1777 will be produced or the tiers are not yet finished.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Unfortunately I keep finding reasons for not pledging!! I just noticed that the White deck comes with a sleeve with a metal thing... Will be, by any chance, the possibility to get that deck without that sleeve?

On another note, just noticed that you have the 1300+ spots for the Dynastinae Rex Edition, though in the description it says only 777 will be produced, so it was either a typo and 1777 will be produced or the tiers are not yet finished.

White deck is intended to have the sleeve. Will not be offered without.

Tiers are incomplete as far as numbers are concerned. I’m some cases the final numbers won’t add up to the correct amount because I will be monitoring the progress of the inventory count in order to maintain inventory where it is needed. I.e. if more 5 deck sets are pledged for then no sense in maintaining slotted inventory of the white decks in the 4 deck set tier.

[crazy_lazy]

the only deck i really want is the white one but $95 is quite a stretch for it. 95 because you have to buy another deck to add it on. with all of the controversy of the box and gated decks and now the tucks are backwards, i have lost the last bit of motivation i have for this campaign. i love you TGW but this just might go in the file with the hundreds of other campaigns and decks i have not bought in the last 4 years. i think all the issues added up just make this not the campaign for me even though the decks and items are beautiful. at this point it is as much about the principle of not supporting these practices as it is about the other issues. shame as the parlour was my first and only ever brick purchase due to the great value, and the hype i must admit. the tempest i only purchased 4 decks because of the gated decks. i have no doubt this campaign will be a smash hit, your biggest yet, with or without my pledge.

Is that how the add-ons work for this campaign? You can just add $65 to any tier for Dynastinae and $75 for Monarchs? I thought you had to buy the pre-set reward tiers that include those decks.

[Bikefanatic]

the only deck i really want is the white one but $95 is quite a stretch for it. 95 because you have to buy another deck to add it on. with all of the controversy of the box and gated decks and now the tucks are backwards, i have lost the last bit of motivation i have for this campaign. i love you TGW but this just might go in the file with the hundreds of other campaigns and decks i have not bought in the last 4 years. i think all the issues added up just make this not the campaign for me even though the decks and items are beautiful. at this point it is as much about the principle of not supporting these practices as it is about the other issues. shame as the parlour was my first and only ever brick purchase due to the great value, and the hype i must admit. the tempest i only purchased 4 decks because of the gated decks. i have no doubt this campaign will be a smash hit, your biggest yet, with or without my pledge.

Is that how the add-ons work for this campaign? You can just add $65 to any tier for Dynastinae and $75 for Monarchs? I thought you had to buy the pre-set reward tiers that include those decks.

I think that's right.

Seems like a lot of people want just the white Monarch deck. If it was sold separately for $75, most people wouldn't mind. The red, blue and black can only be bought separately.

[TheGentlemanWake]

the only deck i really want is the white one but $95 is quite a stretch for it. 95 because you have to buy another deck to add it on. with all of the controversy of the box and gated decks and now the tucks are backwards, i have lost the last bit of motivation i have for this campaign. i love you TGW but this just might go in the file with the hundreds of other campaigns and decks i have not bought in the last 4 years. i think all the issues added up just make this not the campaign for me even though the decks and items are beautiful. at this point it is as much about the principle of not supporting these practices as it is about the other issues. shame as the parlour was my first and only ever brick purchase due to the great value, and the hype i must admit. the tempest i only purchased 4 decks because of the gated decks. i have no doubt this campaign will be a smash hit, your biggest yet, with or without my pledge.

Is that how the add-ons work for this campaign? You can just add $65 to any tier for Dynastinae and $75 for Monarchs? I thought you had to buy the pre-set reward tiers that include those decks.

I think that's right.

Seems like a lot of people want just the white Monarch deck. If it was sold separately for $75, most people wouldn't mind. The red, blue and black can only be bought separately.

I feel like I have to clarify this because It somehow is continually overlooked. The WHITE deck DOES NOT HAPPEN without the sales of the red/blue/black. The white deck would NORMALLY be locked behind stretch goals...but because I have listened (for better or worse) to the masses and decided to make all items available from the beginning there may be an idea that they are some how autonomous from one another. This project is EXTREMELY ambitious (READ: EXPENSIVE) and if as a fan and collector of high quality custom playing cards I urge you to back the project because if it fails or doesn't really turn a profit these High quality projects will begin to fall to way side. Just a fair warning. In fact I am tempted to make the white deck exclusive to the 4 deck sets and up. I simply cannot afford to print the white deck without sales of the red/blue/black.

Also not sure what "The red, blue and black can only be bought separately." means here? The Red/Blue/Black are available in sets (duos and trios).

[kevork]

Great point, Omar. I'm going to try to pledge the top tier, hopefully I'll get it in time. It makes sense that in a typical campaign, you'd help offset some of the production costs with some of the more common variants, but that fails if no one backs them.

What if you had the white variant exclusive to some of the mid to high tiers and if things go well with the campaign, it's then offered as an add-on? That seems more controllable than leaving it completely open from the start and potentially having a risky campaign for you and supporters too.

I also like Lorenzo's suggestion on KS to change the main photo of the campaign away from the white variant only, and perhaps show the pic with all six variants on it.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Great point, Omar. I'm going to try to pledge the top tier, hopefully I'll get it in time. It makes sense that in a typical campaign, you'd help offset some of the production costs with some of the more common variants, but that fails if no one backs them.

What if you had the white variant exclusive to some of the mid to high tiers and if things go well with the campaign, it's then offered as an add-on? That seems more controllable than leaving it completely open from the start and potentially having a risky campaign for you and supporters too.

I also like Lorenzo's suggestion on KS to change the main photo of the campaign away from the white variant only, and perhaps show the pic with all six variants on it.

Moving it to a stretch goal to unlock as an Add-on works in theory but then what if folks cancel their full pledges in order to only get the White Monarch edition? Look I realy don't like the idea of people accusing me of putting obstacles to getting what they want. But there are just true factors involved that some folks just overlook. BUDGET factors. You know how expensive it would be to ONLY print the white decks? Cartamundi's prices are MITIGATED IMMENSELY by volume. The less expensive standard editions are WHAT allow for the expensive bells and whistles to make sense. But I know that will get lost in an endless sea of complaints and reproaches as people call my money-grubby.

I am waiting on a new batch of photos from Chris Moyer tomorrow morning. will look at what options I have for campaign pic. It's tricky. The white deck is a star. Absolutely gorgeous and even by itself it commands attention.

I've been thinking on it while I wait for tomorrow's Youtube video to render and upload... I think my best solution is to make it so the White and Green can only be added on AFTER the campaign via Backerkit and only if stock remains. I'm sorry if that inconvenient for some people--but I need to protect my business and investment in this project. Frankly at $195 the 5 deck set to me is a no brainer. MUUUCH better, imho, than paying $200 for a single deck in a plain wood box for instance.

[aznh]

ur last comment is y most wont back ur project

the more u talk about ur expenses the more offensive ur gettin

smh

[kasuma99]

Oh man.. please let us add at least one green dynastinae each, it's the star of the whole campaign to me..
(Yes, i think it's much nicer than the white and holo by a HUGE margin!)

[Fenrir]

Oh man.. please let us add at least one green dynastinae each, it's the star of the whole campaign to me..
(Yes, i think it's much nicer than the white and holo by a HUGE margin!)

I agree with Kasuma that I would really like to be able to add on a Dynastinae. It’s my favorite deck of the series.

[bdawg923]

Despite a lot of decisions made with the Kickstarter (locking decks behind the box) and the fact that I don't like Kevin Cantrell's art style at all (no offense, just not my cup of tea), I'll probably be backing the ks for a few decks anyway. Mostly because Omar is always here in the forums dealing with all our complaints and suggestions and dealing with them gracefully. This 22 page thread really made me appreciate all the hard work it takes to launch a big ks like this and I probably don't even know the half of it. So, kudos Omar. You won me over.

[brownsl]

Frankly at $195 the 5 deck set to me is a no brainer. MUUUCH better, imho, than paying $200 for a single deck in a plain wood box for instance.

I think this is an unfair comparison as I can get that single deck without the wood box and calling it "plain" is an unnecessary dig at JR.

[GandalfPC]

I don’t know if it was necessary or not, but it was accurate enough and under the circumstances of the stress that TGW is under at the moment, quite forgivable.

Frankly I find the word forgivable sticking in my craw a bit, and would say the word “understandable” fits just as well. I find nothing in need of forgiveness.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Frankly at $195 the 5 deck set to me is a no brainer. MUUUCH better, imho, than paying $200 for a single deck in a plain wood box for instance.

I think this is an unfair comparison as I can get that single deck without the wood box and calling it "plain" is an unnecessary dig at JR.

It’s not a personally directed comment in the least. Jackson is a great dude, designer and business man. Look no further than my top ten decks of 2021 premiering imminently for evidence of how high in esteem I count his contributions to the playing cards world. The legacy boxes, however, are pretty plain are they not? Even the silver coin is a previously existing product that is being added on? And as far as I understand it the tuck box in the legacy edition is unique to the legacy edition. Does that make it the same deck as the others on offer? Where do you make the distinction then? Back design? Gilding?

[TheGentlemanWake]

I don’t know if it was necessary or not, but it was accurate enough and under the circumstances of the stress that TGW is under at the moment, quite forgivable.

Frankly I find the word forgivable sticking in my craw a bit, and would say the word “understandable” fits just as well. I find nothing in need of forgiveness.

I confess I am envious of Jackson. Not of how much money he’s raised nor of his backer total. Although to be sure I want those things to be true of successor as well. But if the simplicity of his campaign. No one forced me to be so ambitious and risky. That’s my fault. I’ve been at this for a lot less time than Jackson has. It’s safe to say he’s figured it out and it feels a lot more effortless than what I go through. Then again—I know how misunderstood and often misrepresented projects can be. I suspect he’s worked very hard indeed and deserves all the success he’s garnered. He makes it look easy tho. Maybe that’s what I’m a tiny bit jealous of. Jealous is the wrong word. In awe of.

[STLBluesNut]

i obviously have no access to the amount of money invested in this campaign so far but i cannot help to wonder how different this campaign would be (tier setup and cost) without this box. it seems to me so much of the explanations in response to issues folks have with various aspects of the campaign come back covering and offsetting the costs of the sarcophagus, mostly the development. the longer this thread goes on the the more that TGW is transparent and explanatory, the more i am convinced that this tier set up and cost has very much less to do with profit than it does covering costs. i do not think, and never have thought, that TGW was a money grubber looking to milk the card community with shadey practices, looking at you zack. however, i think much of this could have been avoided.

i feel like this box has put tremendous strain on a CARD campaign. i feel like this box was developed more because TGW wanted this box himself rather than filling a need or desire across the card community. although it may have sold well, i do not recall seeing many, if anyone, saying they really wished more creators would make prohibitively expensive display boxes after the AOP Standards box. all of these development costs and production costs that need to be covered by the campaign could have easily been avoided if this box was not made or sold separately at a price which would cover itself. now we have a campaign that everything is structured and priced in a away to cover the costs of development and production of this box. it is far too late now as the money has already been spent but i hope this serves as a lesson that these high priced extra items can really strain a campaign for playing cards. these costs being spread out across the campaign, both monetarily and making it necessary to gate decks behind other purchases, also has the impact of making those who have no interest in this box pay for it to some extent.

i also think we are seeing the effects of trying to create decks that are artificially ''rare'' and ''scarce'' in the TGW explanations. ''Cartamundi's prices are MITIGATED IMMENSELY by volume. The less expensive standard editions are WHAT allow for the expensive bells and whistles to make sense''. clearly, not limiting the runs of the decks on purpose would bring these costs down. ''In fact I am tempted to make the white deck exclusive to the 4 deck sets and up. I simply cannot afford to print the white deck without sales of the red/blue/black.'' Again, we see the covering of the costs of one item by another.

''I urge you to back the project because if it fails or doesn't really turn a profit these High quality projects will begin to fall to way side''. this is true of a demand driven market. although, i do not think this particular campaign will be a good indicator of this because this is a TGW campaign. this has his name on it and many will buy because of that. i don't think many others could get away with this kind of campaign. for the record, i think this campaign will be a huge success but i don't think that will prove somehow that this kind of campaign is in demand.

it seems if a campaign were to offer more of what people really want and less of what they don't, some of these problems could be avoided. regardless of the ''why's'', i feel like some of these issues have been self inflicted.

anyway, that is one persons take. i am not a businessman. i do not have a degree in this kind of thing. i can run a nuclear reactor but economics isn't in my wheelhouse.

PS- the white deck is definitely the star of this show. anyone who says otherwise is just objectively wrong =p

[TheGentlemanWake]

Oh man.. please let us add at least one green dynastinae each, it's the star of the whole campaign to me..
(Yes, i think it's much nicer than the white and holo by a HUGE margin!)

I agree with Kasuma that I would really like to be able to add on a Dynastinae. It’s my favorite deck of the series.

I understand where you are coming from. It pains me to make the Dynastinae deck a bit inaccessible. To those regular participants in this thread all I can do is promise that you’ll be able to get one at some point. I’ll make that happen. It’s just not going to be likely at the launch of the campaign.

[TheGentlemanWake]

i obviously have no access to the amount of money invested in this campaign so far but i cannot help to wonder how different this campaign would be (tier setup and cost) without this box. it seems to me so much of the explanations in response to issues folks have with various aspects of the campaign come back covering and offsetting the costs of the sarcophagus, mostly the development. the longer this thread goes on the the more that TGW is transparent and explanatory, the more i am convinced that this tier set up and cost has very much less to do with profit than it does covering costs. i do not think, and never have thought, that TGW was a money grubber looking to milk the card community with shadey practices, looking at you zack. however, i think much of this could have been avoided.

i feel like this box has put tremendous strain on a CARD campaign. i feel like this box was developed more because TGW wanted this box himself rather than filling a need or desire across the card community. although it may have sold well, i do not recall seeing many, if anyone, saying they really wished more creators would make prohibitively expensive display boxes after the AOP Standards box. all of these development costs and production costs that need to be covered by the campaign could have easily been avoided if this box was not made or sold separately at a price which would cover itself. now we have a campaign that everything is structured and priced in a away to cover the costs of development and production of this box. it is far too late now as the money has already been spent but i hope this serves as a lesson that these high priced extra items can really strain a campaign for playing cards. these costs being spread out across the campaign, both monetarily and making it necessary to gate decks behind other purchases, also has the impact of making those who have no interest in this box pay for it to some extent.

i also think we are seeing the effects of trying to create decks that are artificially ''rare'' and ''scarce'' in the TGW explanations. ''Cartamundi's prices are MITIGATED IMMENSELY by volume. The less expensive standard editions are WHAT allow for the expensive bells and whistles to make sense''. clearly, not limiting the runs of the decks on purpose would bring these costs down. ''In fact I am tempted to make the white deck exclusive to the 4 deck sets and up. I simply cannot afford to print the white deck without sales of the red/blue/black.'' Again, we see the covering of the costs of one item by another.

''I urge you to back the project because if it fails or doesn't really turn a profit these High quality projects will begin to fall to way side''. this is true of a demand driven market. although, i do not think this particular campaign will be a good indicator of this because this is a TGW campaign. this has his name on it and many will buy because of that. i don't think many others could get away with this kind of campaign. for the record, i think this campaign will be a huge success but i don't think that will prove somehow that this kind of campaign is in demand.

it seems if a campaign were to offer more of what people really want and less of what they don't, some of these problems could be avoided. regardless of the ''why's'', i feel like some of these issues have been self inflicted.

anyway, that is one persons take. i am not a businessman. i do not have a degree in this kind of thing. i can run a nuclear reactor but economics isn't in my wheelhouse.

PS- the white deck is definitely the star of this show. anyone who says otherwise is just objectively wrong =p

I’m pretty sure our headstones will be continuing the debate we’ve had across multiple pages of this thread. Lol.

I think you make some incorrect inferences among some accurate ones. Yes the r&d and production of the sarcophagus is a large strain BUT like any entrepreneur you have to take risks to reap the rewards. Maybe I’m foolish to think people will want this in their collections maybe I’m a genius to identify a need for a product before it’s expressed. Only the launch will tell. This is NOT because I wanted the box—at least not solely. Of course I think it’s school. I’ve frankly enjoyed making it a reality. There have been many many challenges to its creation and I’m extremely proud of where it ended up.

The false scarcity bit I’ve already addressed multiple times. The luxury business model is built on a scarcity vs demand system. It just is. It’s worked for Rolex, Louis Vuitton, Ferrari, supreme, heck even Fontaine. I’m building a luxury brand. Secondly and again I’ve mentioned this several times. Printing more decks is in fact MORE expensive than printing less decks. It’s just the cost PER deck becomes more inexpensive. To print the kind of numbers of the white and geeen and purple decks I would need to reduce the cost to a more manageable per deck basis would mean my funding goal would go up considerably.

Maybe one day in the future I’ll make a comprehensive business of playing cards from an insider perspective video.

[sms69x]

[...]

i also think we are seeing the effects of trying to create decks that are artificially ''rare'' and ''scarce'' in the TGW explanations. ''Cartamundi's prices are MITIGATED IMMENSELY by volume. The less expensive standard editions are WHAT allow for the expensive bells and whistles to make sense''. clearly, not limiting the runs of the decks on purpose would bring these costs down. ''In fact I am tempted to make the white deck exclusive to the 4 deck sets and up. I simply cannot afford to print the white deck without sales of the red/blue/black.'' Again, we see the covering of the costs of one item by another.

[...]

This is something that creators love to do (not only TGW), have that flag, LIMITED, EXTREMELY RARE, WILL BE HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER, and the list goes on and on... For some reason its believed that a print run of 400 decks is extremely rare, and a print run of less than 2500 is limited, I really don't understand why, but it seems that it sells (shame on us), so creators keep on doing it.. I have a lot of KS decks which weren't limited nor advertised as such (though they were limited to the number of decks bough on KS) that are more rare and highly sough after than many if not all of those 100-500 limited, extremely rare editions..
The bottom line is, if there is the demand for the white deck (or any other deck on the campaign) then produce as many as necessary to cover KS orders, this will help you reduce the price per deck and increase the number of backers, which in turn increases the total amount which most likely increases your profit..

[TheGentlemanWake]

[...]

i also think we are seeing the effects of trying to create decks that are artificially ''rare'' and ''scarce'' in the TGW explanations. ''Cartamundi's prices are MITIGATED IMMENSELY by volume. The less expensive standard editions are WHAT allow for the expensive bells and whistles to make sense''. clearly, not limiting the runs of the decks on purpose would bring these costs down. ''In fact I am tempted to make the white deck exclusive to the 4 deck sets and up. I simply cannot afford to print the white deck without sales of the red/blue/black.'' Again, we see the covering of the costs of one item by another.

[...]

This is something that creators love to do (not only TGW), have that flag, LIMITED, EXTREMELY RARE, WILL BE HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER, and the list goes on and on... For some reason its believed that a print run of 400 decks is extremely rare, and a print run of less than 2500 is limited, I really don't understand why, but it seems that it sells (shame on us), so creators keep on doing it.. I have a lot of KS decks which weren't limited nor advertised as such (though they were limited to the number of decks bough on KS) that are more rare and highly sough after than many if not all of those 100-500 limited, extremely rare editions..
The bottom line is, if there is the demand for the white deck (or any other deck on the campaign) then produce as many as necessary to cover KS orders, this will help you reduce the price per deck and increase the number of backers, which in turn increases the total amount which most likely increases your profit..

There’s another misunderstanding that gets attributed a lot: the idea that it’s all about profits. A profitable business is important. Absolutely. But just as important is building the brand. Building the brand is what will make future projects profitable for a long time.

[STLBluesNut]

i can understand that you are building a luxury brand. totally reasonable and acceptable. however, i think the unfortunate part of luxury brands is that they are not a value. in you example louis vitton, you are still just getting say a average quality leather purse, pouch, t shirt, etc at an extreme price because it is a ''luxury brand''. you're not getting something better for the price. your card decks are definitely better, so that isn't a direct comparison i suppose.

even though i can, i do not buy luxury brands. the product is not worth the price.

anyway, like i said, im no economist or business major and i don't have access to all the costs. it is a layman's take on things. in the consumer market though, like many other areas, perception is reality. in this case, a product, is going to live or die based on perception, not the facts of the behind the scenes numbers.

''I’m pretty sure our headstones will be continuing the debate we’ve had across multiple pages of this thread. Lol.'' probably, lol. nothing but love though. id be the first to buy you a drink and have great night on the town.

[BaconWise]

I am always impressed with how engaged and transparent Omar is in response to any concerns in this thread and really any of his project threads. He doesn't shy away from any criticism (constructive or otherwise) when it would be quite easy to go radio-silent and just launch the campaign. Regardless of whether you plan to back this campaign or not, I think he deserves and immense amount of respect (if he somehow hasn't already earned that) for his approach to these discussions.

i feel like this box was developed more because TGW wanted this box himself rather than filling a need or desire across the card community.

I think there HAS to be a bit of this approach in any campaign. I am a collector to my core and anything I have made for my campaigns has been something I have wanted first. I have often heard in my pre-launch feedback "Isn't this all a bit much?" Yes. Yes it is. But it's what I would want.

[brownsl]

Frankly at $195 the 5 deck set to me is a no brainer. MUUUCH better, imho, than paying $200 for a single deck in a plain wood box for instance.

I think this is an unfair comparison as I can get that single deck without the wood box and calling it "plain" is an unnecessary dig at JR.

The legacy boxes, however, are pretty plain are they not?

Compared to the incredibly ornate Sarcophagus, yes.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Frankly at $195 the 5 deck set to me is a no brainer. MUUUCH better, imho, than paying $200 for a single deck in a plain wood box for instance.

I think this is an unfair comparison as I can get that single deck without the wood box and calling it "plain" is an unnecessary dig at JR.

The legacy boxes, however, are pretty plain are they not?

Compared to the incredibly ornate Sarcophagus, yes.

Or compared to Steve Monty’s boxes sets? Or even theory 11s? What about the standards? It’s objectively plain. That’s fine. Minimalism is a thing. Heck I LOVE wyrmwood products. All of which are pretty plain. But for a LOTR campaign a plain box doesn’t fit for me. It’s the reason I didn’t back the legacy edition myself despite getting all the others.

[TheGentlemanWake]

even though i can, i do not buy luxury brands. the product is not worth the price.

This isn’t a universal sentiment. This is an opinion. There are plenty of people paying top dollar for apple computers, teslas, and more. And a lot of people who think very highly of the quality of those products as well. Some hold them to be the pinnacle and standard by which all others are measured. If the TGW brand is one day regarded in the same way then I would be extremely proud.