The Successor by TGW/Kevin Cantrell

[TheGentlemanWake]

So I know there’s a bit of an ongoing debate wether a campaign should show everything up front or not. I’m looking for feedback on this. Obviously I’ve mentioned a desire to show everything up front. The issue with this is that having everything unlocked from the get go makes a very high funding goal. Higher funding goal means a project takes more time to fund and funds at a lower percentage than it otherwise does and neither of those are favored by the KS algorithm. Setting the goal lower to make those more accessible to KS algorithm means that there’s a risk the campaign “funds”but not enough money is raised to truly complete the production. As I’ve stated before this campaign will be the most expensive I’ve ever produced from a production standpoint. That is if all the aspects are created. Under previous circumstances decks were introduced as stretch goals. There was no commitment from The beginning to produce them hence the pressure was off. Sure we had an “all-in” tier. But backers were asked for a blind leap of faith —which is something I’d rather not do. Plus we introduced new tiers at a later point and I know folks loathe having to change tiers mid campaign. It’s a serious catch 22.

There’s also the psychological component of weighing out the pros and cons of releasing items later into the campaign vs showing them all up top. In the piecemeal example you may get some backers who pledge for three decks without the thought that they would want four or five BUT once committed are more likely to add decks than drop their pledge. However you may get some folks who are simply oblivious to the fact that decks were added and forget to check that would have otherwise added those additional decks. In scenario B everyone knows from the top what will be available. This is great for some who are “set it and forget it” types. They want to get on at launch place their reward tier and never visit again. However some folks might not be interested in a campaign that has 6 variants (I know some here have voiced that) no matter how DIFFERENT ive strived to make them (different tucks, back designs, features etc).

So I’m stuck between wanting to make everyone happy vs keeping the funding goal realistic. It’s easier for me to just have everything shown and ready to go. I’ve already set up the reward tiers and wrote the campaign page (waiting on prototypes for pictures and video so I can preview the page for everyone). Plus I just really want to see all the versions become reality. But will it hurt performance? I have to also endure the tremendous stress of knowing the actual funding number is not the funding number being shown (It sucks that algorithms are a thing) and that there’s a risk (however slight) that the campaign will be out of pocket for me until the decks sell in post-campaign retail and preorders. Anyway i don’t think these are things most collectors or backers think about that goes into the process — looking to see some reactions.

[JacksandJokers]

In my opinion (& from personal experience) there's nothing more annoying than committing to a pledge tier only to find out later in the campaign that there's another deck to add, and then another etc, etc.

I like to have a rough idea of how much I'm going to spend on a campaign up front so I can budget for it.
If a campaign ends up having too many decks (items) which I haven't budgeted for I'm more likely to cancel my entire pledge rather than add on the extras or keep my original tier.

Saying that, I do like to see at least a couple of stretch goals in a campaign as this gives backers something to aim for.

My suggestion would be to show all (or most things) upfront and then use stretch goals to upgrade these items: foil, card stock, gilding or whatever else can be done to improve the item in question.

At least if the stretch goals are not met backers will still be getting what they originally pledged for and know from the start what's available

[RichK]

TGW,

Show it all and the stretch amounts needed to unlock them. Then use the "Add-On" option on the pledges so there is no physical tier changing causing frustration to backers. Yes it might be unfair for really limited decks, like the holographic Tempest deck, so maybe have a dedicated pledge tier for something like that type deck. But otherwise show it all.

[STLBluesNut]

this here bothers me, regardless of how true it may be...

"In the piecemeal example you may get some backers who pledge for three decks without the thought that they would want four or five BUT once committed are more likely to add decks than drop their pledge"

this type of thinking or practice seems really manipulative. my impression is that one knows this practice is manipulative but does it anyway. this is basically saying "doing it this way we can sucker more people into buying more decks". this especially preys on those that like to or have to have complete sets. at best it is shady. once you have recognized the tactic and realize it is a manipulative method to get people to spend more than they would have, i think it would reflect poorly on you if you now use it.

i have been pretty outspoken in showing all decks up front. that does not mean they have to be available. they can be unlocked later by stretch goal. releasing surprise decks may be really fun and neat for some but there are those that find this very annoying because they haven't planned for them and i think it fits into the "sucker them in" mentality above. i realize the purpose of a business or selling something is to make money but using manipulative tactics such as this is wrong imo.

i feel artificially limited runs and gating decks into expensive bundles or behind non playing card items falls into the category above as well.

i think i probably feel the same as many here that don't normally post a lot that i appreciate the discussion and transparency with creators on this forum. i appreciate being given the chance to voice an opinion with you. i feel it is one of the reasons you are so highly regarded in this community. thank you for taking the time, Omar.

[james001a]

Not reaching the goal would create a lot more unhappy people (including you as the creator, Omar) than having lower goals but slowly releasing stretch goals. We all know they are coming, and as long as they are what people like, they will be backed by those interested in them. I see no problem with that if that is the needed path to a successfully funded campaign. Of course, collectors like myself may feel fatigued from this practice, and appreciate an upfront offering. But until that has a negative impact on the goals, why is there a need to change?

[PiazzaDelivery]

IMO, f*** what everybody else thinks, you do what's best for you and your campaign. If people are genuinely upset, they will take their money elsewhere.

[TheGentlemanWake]

this here bothers me, regardless of how true it may be...

"In the piecemeal example you may get some backers who pledge for three decks without the thought that they would want four or five BUT once committed are more likely to add decks than drop their pledge"

this type of thinking or practice seems really manipulative. my impression is that one knows this practice is manipulative but does it anyway. this is basically saying "doing it this way we can sucker more people into buying more decks". this especially preys on those that like to or have to have complete sets. at best it is shady. once you have recognized the tactic and realize it is a manipulative method to get people to spend more than they would have, i think it would reflect poorly on you if you now use it.

I get where you are coming from. I recognize these tendencies in myself as a collector--which of course I was way before I became a content creator or producer. However, it would be disingenuous of me to ignore this aspect--you have to understand that its just something that happens. It's just a facet of the process more so an intentional choice. The biggest motivating factor for me to release decks in a piecemeal fashion wouldn't be to manipulate or prey upon the collector tendency but rather to help mitigate the cost vs. expectation of what the campaign could achieve. If it created a subtle psychological willingness to continue to add new releases rather than drop the pledge altogether its an unintended benefit. As I mentioned there may be collectors who never even become aware of subsequent releases and therefore the campaign would be missing out. This happens to me now moreso than ever. I often forget to check campaigns I back for new releases. So although I understand the ramifications they are not undertaken unethically. This is all really besides the point because my inclination is to simple release everything right from the begining. I've invested a substantial amount in the R&D of the sarcophagus. There's Kevin's design fee, Simone Rasetti's 3D Interpretation of said design, the time involved in finding vendors, the cost of molds and samples for the metal components, the cost of manufacturer of the box prototypes, etc. The box is designed for 6 decks. It doesn't make much sense to start off the campaign with a tier for 6 deck box that only features 3 or 4 decks. I could do it. Art of Play did it with standards to a degree. Although that was likely more a choice based on Kevin's completion of the union jack deck in particular. Plus we've designed some really cool deck options among the 6. They all feel different, yet cohesive and also relevant. Not just recolors. The red/blue act as the standard pair but all the others have different bells and whistles and attractions from metal plates on the tuck to different back designs.

i feel artificially limited runs and gating decks into expensive bundles or behind non playing card items falls into the category above as well.

Its safe to say we don't agree here. As we've gone down that road quite a bit in discussion.

i think i probably feel the same as many here that don't normally post a lot that i appreciate the discussion and transparency with creators on this forum. i appreciate being given the chance to voice an opinion with you. i feel it is one of the reasons you are so highly regarded in this community. thank you for taking the time, Omar.

Thank you for this. I promise that ALWAYS have the collector in mind when it comes to the business side of what I do (and the content side actually). I try to create products that I would want. I DO WANT THEM. lol. And I love this community for offering me a place to better understand the desires and needs of my customers and to allow me a place to vent, discuss, agonize and express gratitude!

[STLBluesNut]

" The biggest motivating factor for me to release decks in a piecemeal fashion wouldn't be to manipulate or prey upon the collector tendency but rather to help mitigate the cost vs. expectation of what the campaign could achieve. If it created a subtle psychological willingness to continue to add new releases rather than drop the pledge altogether its an unintended benefit."

i agree with this if the decks are shown at the beginning and just locked behind a stretch goal. this, i suppose, was directed more at a surprise release during a campaign rather than the piecemeal aspect. this could be limited to the creator that knows they are going to release said deck but decides intentionally to not mention it and surprise release it, maybe not so much to a deck they never intended to do but it was suggested by a backer and they added it. as with a lot of things it is situational.

"Its safe to say we don't agree here. As we've gone down that road quite a bit in discussion. "

yes we have lol. was just gently mentioning again =p

thank you again for the reply and the discussion.

[TheGentlemanWake]

I had a convo with Lorenzo. He feels like I should go ahead and raise the goal to a more realistic amount. It's not something that happens very often but whats the perception of a campaign with a large goal? I know Eye of the Ocean started at about $55k. I could in theory do $49k I could also just as easily do $99k. Just fulfillment ALONE on this campaign will be in the 30-35k range. He says,as far as he knows, it's backers/hour that matter not funding percentage. He's a veteran of like 15 campaigns tho so...

[Harvonsgard]

Makes sense because otherwise the funding goal could be put at $10 and then the percentage goes through the roof.

I'm in the same camp as the majority btw. Knowing what's coming upfront, is not exclusive to it has to be available from day one (although I would still prefer that).

[Fenrir]

Just adding in my two cents here, might be a hot take.

I think that you should set the goal to what you need to produce your full vision. Anything else seems crazy to me. I don't know anyone who doesn't back a KS because the goal is set too high. If someone thinks that the argument has to be, were you really interested to begin with?

Regarding having everything laid out ahead of time. I am with Harvonsgard that I prefer to see things up front. I hate having to come back and check in for things or have things hidden. It's not a fun or enjoyable game, it becomes work. So if you are looking to get my money, just show me what is available ahead of time and I will make the decision based on my budget and enjoyment of the product what my level of commitment is. I don't necessarily have to see it unlocked from day one but I want to know what is coming and have an equal opportunity for everyone to purchase it if it is going to be in a drop format.

Moving on to stretch goals. I have to say this is the thing I hate about Kickstarter the most. Stretch goals are the most arbitrary things in existence. It's hard for me to believe that a backer who decides to commit to $50 as an initial pledge is going to see a special tuck seal or inner printing and decide to double their pledge. Maybe there is a subsection of 5-10% of backers who will but I have always seen that stretch goals are achieved by getting additional backers. I can understand that creators want people to stay engaged and come back but like I pointed out earlier that's work for me and not an enjoyable experience. I would much rather see what a creator wants the perfect product to be instead of trying to unlock the stretch goals and not meeting them. If I was a creator I wouldn't want to release anything other than my intended vision. Not saying this applies here, just going on a bit of a rant. If someone wants to have additional items as stretch goals, sure no problem but at least let us know what is coming. That way you can potential gain additional backers from word of mouth.

[rousselle]

Devil's advocate: if you reveal what you want for the entire project, but set some of the decks as being unlocked once stretch goals are met, then if some of the decks don't unlock, you can always have a part 2 campaign to finish the project and fulfill your total vision.

That said, Lorenzo has some expertise in this field, and he is not only a great designer, but a truly effective and excellent campaign manager. So, while I have my thoughts on what I might like to see, Lorenzo knows what works for an established brand. Frankly, Omar, you are an established brand. May as well play by the big boy rules.

[Eric Lee]

You could always do a De'vo style funding goal where it's a ridiculously low number and then claim it's X thousand % funded!

On the serious side, I think you can safely go all in at this point. After looking at how some of the recent campaigns with all the funky boxes and sets have managed to get funded; I believe the TGW brand is strong enough to carry you to your funding goal.

Maybe just have the Dynastinae prism as a stretch if you're not certain.

[STLBluesNut]

personally, i do not really take into account the overall funding goal into account for buying or how much i pledge. i think you can put it at whatever you like. i see no reason this will not be another $150k+ campaign. i wouldn't be surprised if this is your first $200k+ campaign.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Thank you for all the feedback everyone. If there’s still someone who hasn’t voiced an opinion I’d still love to hear it.

[wingedpotato]

+1 for all information released up front (i.e. no surprises), but still setting stretch goals for later releases. Honestly, I don't have the budget anymore for really expensive decks, so I don't really have a pony in this fight.

[TheGentlemanWake]

+1 for all information released up front (i.e. no surprises), but still setting stretch goals for later releases. Honestly, I don't have the budget anymore for really expensive decks, so I don't really have a pony in this fight.

Tha ks for the reply. Just so I understand. When you say you dont have budget for more expensive decks you mean during the campaign rather than in general?

[wingedpotato]

Tha ks for the reply. Just so I understand. When you say you dont have budget for more expensive decks you mean during the campaign rather than in general?

In general. I know that no matter how blinged out and special the variants are, I won't be buying any decks that cost more than $20 each. I'm just done. I've blown so much on expensive decks in the past, but realize it is just the art and design I really love. For example, Lorenzo's Gambling Frog and Gaoshua's One decks got me just as excited to receive as anything else without foil or gilding or etc. That is where I am on the spectrum of collecting now.

[Fenrir]

Tha ks for the reply. Just so I understand. When you say you dont have budget for more expensive decks you mean during the campaign rather than in general?

In general. I know that no matter how blinged out and special the variants are, I won't be buying any decks that cost more than $20 each. I'm just done. I've blown so much on expensive decks in the past, but realize it is just the art and design I really love. For example, Lotrek's Gambling Frog and Gaoshua's One decks got me just as excited to receive as anything else without foil or gilding or etc. That is where I am on the spectrum of collecting now.

Just pointing out that Lorenzo did the Notorious Gambling Frog and not Lotrek. That being said I agree with winged potato that I am a little burned out on super expensive decks. I will do it for certain designers but overall I prefer more reasonably priced decks.

[TheGentlemanWake]

I understand the mentality you and winged potato have. All I can say is that my releases are much more tentpole events than deck releases. At least that’s my goal. My releases are not like Jackson’s (who probably costs folks a ton of money over a year) or even someone like Gio who releases three or four kickstarters a year. Maybe those are better models. I’m actively trying to shift to a more frequent release schedule moving forward. But obviously I have a relatively new brand in the grand scheme of things. So I have to work my way up to being able to invest in multiple concurrent designs whilst maintaining fulfillment schedules. It’s hard work. Lol. So unfortunately I have to rely on the big releases with some expensive editions. The prices on successor are generally much lower than tempest for the most expensive decks. This is because (a) Lotrek is not printing them and (b) I’m aware that people don’t want to spend a lot. For those who do I do want to provide them special decks that I believe will give them their moneys worth. The upcoming Monarch White edition is an example of that. The tuck case for this deck will be the best tuck case I’ve ever produced. The prism successor will be very similar. But obviously the white deck will be more available. And obviously for the person who wants the sarcophagus to be the center of a card display that will exist too.

[wingedpotato]

I understand the mentality you and winged potato have. All I can say is that my releases are much more tentpole events than deck releases. At least that’s my goal. My releases are not like Jackson’s (who probably costs folks a ton of money over a year) or even someone like Gio who releases three or four kickstarters a year. Maybe those are better models. I’m actively trying to shift to a more frequent release schedule moving forward. But obviously I have a relatively new brand in the grand scheme of things. So I have to work my way up to being able to invest in multiple concurrent designs whilst maintaining fulfillment schedules. It’s hard work. Lol. So unfortunately I have to rely on the big releases with some expensive editions. The prices on successor are generally much lower than tempest for the most expensive decks. This is because (a) Lotrek is not printing them and (b) I’m aware that people don’t want to spend a lot. For those who do I do want to provide them special decks that I believe will give them their moneys worth. The upcoming Monarch White edition is an example of that. The tuck case for this deck will be the best tuck case I’ve ever produced. The prism successor will be very similar. But obviously the white deck will be more available. And obviously for the person who wants the sarcophagus to be the center of a card display that will exist too.

I appreciate the info, but I wasn't needing any justification for your releases or reasoning, I was just stating where I am as a collector. I don't begrudge any creator to release a deck with a ton of bling/design innovation/scarcity. I just won't buy it myself.

[TheGentlemanWake]

The new back plate for the lid is completed. Now it includes the bottom ivy in the corners which looks much better in my opinion and reduces the open space (which was prone to marking from the polishing process).

[TheGentlemanWake]

The tuck box tests have begun. First pass for the prism edition. Still missing holofoil and emboss pass. But the details!

[steampunk52]

Thank you for all the feedback everyone. If there’s still someone who hasn’t voiced an opinion I’d still love to hear it.

I'm also in the camp of preference for having an idea of what is planned but locked behind stretch goals. However, I don't lose sleep over not knowing what's coming. I personally liked the Odd Fellows approach of have a bit of mystery via the photo that was filled in over the course of the campaign. Around special/limited editions, I like the idea of Kickstarter exclusives. By supporting the campaign, you have the opportunity to purchase limited editions, not locked behind bundled tiers. Perhaps the bundled tier provides a better price, but the item is still available independently.

I went deep in several KS the last couple of years (Ravn, Royales, TotT, EotO) plus S17 and Lotrek Patreons, Jocu Inner Circle and KWP subs. I decided to really dial it back this year to the items/subscriptions/decks I am most interested in and even cancelled my KWP subscriptions when the price jumped substantially (as much as I like Jackson's work). It was just too much. I'm becoming much more selective and more more hesitant to take flyers on extra stuff/decks to get to the item(s) I am really interested in.

For this campaign, I will likely support the 5 deck set through Dynastanae, but I don't really have an interest in the sarcophagus (though it looks nice) and thus will pass on the Prism edition if thats the only way to get it.

[MagikFingerz]

I don't know since I'm not one of them, but if there are people who would be discouraged by a high funding goal, I would assume that they also look at the funding trend (kicktraq). No point in worrying about a goal that might not be reached if the trend shows clearly that it will in X days.

[TheGentlemanWake]

I don't know since I'm not one of them, but if there are people who would be discouraged by a high funding goal, I would assume that they also look at the funding trend (kicktraq). No point in worrying about a goal that might not be reached if the trend shows clearly that it will in X days.

You know the first day is so important for playing cards campaigns. I'm going to be doing my best to make sure as many people know about this launch as possible. Lately I've noticed a disturbing trend (if you are a KS creator making decks). Most projects lately have been idling at about between 400-800 backers. This is a low number historically. Odd Fellows had 1700. That was the last big one--and that was a while back. I'm curious to see how Jackson's LOTR does. I'm worried that theres just less interest all around in playing cards. Maybe its that there hasn't been a real 'mega' campaign that has grabbed people's attention.

Traditionally my highest viewed videos are my top ten decks of the year. I'm releasing a new one for 2021 (4.5 months late but still lol) soon that will of course remind people of the launch. Hopefully I will have the launch date and time when it goes up (i should). Im also going to be making a successor deck preview that shows all the decks in detail as well as the sarcophagus. This is the first time I do this for any campaign because previously I had never had cold foil prototypes from Cartamundi. The high quality prototypes will make showing off the decks a much more pleasurable experience.

This process is like a never ending tug of war between extreme excitement and crippling doubt. LOL. Anyway below is the sample pass of the purple foil plus the metal sculpt plate that will go on the sleeve. The dark silver foil will be layered underneath a holofoil transparent layer to give it the prismatic sheen of its namesake.

[brownsl]

I think it is great you involving us in your process. I learn a lot and I appreciate it!

[Harvonsgard]

Most projects lately have been idling at about between 400-800 backers. This is a low number historically. Odd Fellows had 1700.

My two cents: Only household names like Lorenzo manage to bring a big chunk of the playing card community to kickstarter. Take into account that subscription models have risen and more producers migrated to Patreon as well. Especially the big names. Steve Minty is the only one I can think off, who is producing his decks via kickstarter.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Most projects lately have been idling at about between 400-800 backers. This is a low number historically. Odd Fellows had 1700.

My two cents: Only household names like Lorenzo manage to bring a big chunk of the playing card community to kickstarter. Take into account that subscription models have risen and more producers migrated to Patreon as well. Especially the big names. Steve Minty is the only one I can think off, who is producing his decks via kickstarter.

Welp, I'm reeeeally hoping I can bring back the community to kickstarter. Gulp.

[Harvonsgard]

You've done your homework and you're a smart observer, you'll be fine. This campaign will definitely be one of the top10 playing card campaigns this year.