Mistborn by Kings Wild Project

[Strag]

In speaking about another deck, Jackson said this today. Not sure if it was known or not, I didn't see it on this thread or the web site although I may have missed it.

It will not be epcc it will be a new printer I’ve been building a relationship with. They printed the mistborn deck

Anyway the prototype pics look good and has to be considered more of an art deck.

[EvilDuncan]

He's mentioned this several times in the past, but I don't think he's ever said the name of the company. I think it's likely that it is a more unknown company. Jackson has said he was very impressed with the quality of the sample cards they sent him.

[hsbc]

I really hate it when designers are cagey about printers, just tell us who made the cards

[JacksonRobinson]

I really hate it when designers are cagey about printers, just tell us who made the cards

It's the Cagey Playing Card Company

[bdawg923]

It's that giant poster size printer Jackson bought for the large prints and they named it Cagey

[hsbc]

In speaking about another deck,

Just FYI for anyone else like me who didn't know, it's the upcoming Sterling deck scheduled for October

[hsbc]

So I knew that Brandon Sanderson was popular, but Sanderson's current Kickstarter campaign for the four(!) books he secretly(!) wrote is now the most successful KS campaign ever -- right now it's at $29,480,865 from 126,803 backers... and there are two weeks left

[Sir Toddalot]

Brandon Sanderson is a writing robot! How does someone secretly write 5 books in their free time in 2 years? That is on top of his normal writing workload? He deserves all the success he gets! If you like fantasy I highly recommend you read his books if you haven’t already.

[RandyButterfield]

Brandon Sanderson is a writing robot! How does someone secretly write 5 books in their free time in 2 years? That is on top of his normal writing workload? He deserves all the success he gets! If you like fantasy I highly recommend you read his books if you haven’t already.

Sanderson is a writing robot!!

I’ve read two series of his, and those weren’t even the same genre (Steelheart series - superheroes, king of like The Boys and Cytonic series - scifi). I didn’t even know much about the Mistborn series until I saw Jackson’s Deck.

An author who can go from Fantasy to SciFi to Superheroes is talented!!

Thanks, Randy

[Eric Lee]

Not to mention being the one selected by Robert Jordan's wife (and also his editor) to complete the Wheel of Time series more than 10 years ago. That is an impressive feat by itself.

[hsbc]

I can see why Jackson went with this printer art-wise, but handling is sadly not up to par - fans are sort of clumpy - thankfully I got this for the illustrations

[rockets455]

i am shocked that this unknown company that makes puzzles did not make a deck of cards that handles well. who could have seen this coming except for everyone. it's no wonder the name is being kept secret

[EvilDuncan]

i am shocked that this unknown company that makes puzzles did not make a deck of cards that handles well. who could have seen this coming except for everyone. it's no wonder the name is being kept secret

Can we please move past this?

These cards were never going to handle super smoothly. Everybody knew it, even Jackson himself. Jackson has said many times that these will not obviously not handle as well USPCC. They are art cards first and foremost. He has found a manufacturer that fits his requirements very well, and by these images it looks like Jackson got exactly what he wanted. Unfortunately for some, handling is not a super high priority for him, and has nothing to do with why he's keeping his manufacturer a secret.

The same complaints would likely appear if he was still producing these with EPCC, so the fact that they make puzzles is irrelevant.

That said, these cards look gorgeous, and I can't wait to get mine whenever he ships out the orders with gilded decks.

[shunterino]

To be perfectly frank I think there are many of us who aren't ready to move past this since he insists on using the same manufacturing process on the LotR deck. It might be fine for those who are happy for their cards to be miniature canvases for an artist's work and nothing more, but not everyone feels that way. And if banging on about it might change his mind then it's worth the mild annoyance to those who are perfectly happy with his choices.

And it's not like Jackson refuses to listen to his customers and fans. He has always shown a willingness to give us things because we ask for it (like the tiger courts on the V2 Tiger deck). There are other card manufacturers who can make a reasonable foiled deck. And they won't handle as well as a USPCC deck either, but they won't be the kind of shitshow some of his decks have been and that's all I want: a deck that doesn't feel like cheap plastic crap. Not perfection, not a cardist's dream. Just not made out of linoleum.

I think it's reasonable to raise that kind of objection, especially in a place like this.

[rousselle]

Oooh, I'm glad that these appear to be shipping out now. That implies I might receive my Mistborns before the funding for Lord of the Rings closes.

Look, I have far too many cards in my collection to actually think I'm going to play with all of them. So, while I would far prefer that all of my decks fan perfectly and handle smooth as silk, I'm less concerned with that at the end of the day than I am with how they feel -- as in, the *sensation* of touching and handling them. I have decks from several manufacturers that don't fan particularly well or are a little bit clumpy, but still feel okay. If they are playable (both design-wise and if they can be easily shuffled and dealt), then I'd like the option to play with them. If the art is already not playable, well, then I obviously had some other reason for buying the deck than to play with them. (I likes me a good faro deck, but I don't play five card draw with a faro deck.)

That said, gilded decks can be clumpy and still feel fine and still be playable. WJPC decks may not always fan perfectly (depends upon the deck, as has been discussed at great length elsewhere), but they've never felt off-putting. Yet, I gotta say -- and Roman, you're an awesome dude and I hope you and your friends and family and business partners in Ukraine are doing okay -- handling NPCC decks has always just felt left my hands feeling like they were being punished. I can't explain quite why, but something about the varnish they use disagrees with my sense of touch. So, yeah.

If I can add a MIstborn deck to my playing rotation (the batch of decks I trot out at night as part of our night-time games as part of the kids' and my nighttime ritual) and play with the deck without issue, then I won't have any qualms whatsoever backing the LotR project. As long as they look awesome (which I'm certain they will) and I can play a game with my kids with them, they're going into my collection.

KWP has done other decks with this printer, yes? If so, I don't recall any of them feeling so nasty that I've had to refuse to play with them. (Unlike my favorite NPCC deck, alas.) If not, well, then we'll see how Mistborn feels in my hands before I make any judgments. But, while we're all sharing our preferences here, I'll note that, sure, I'd like one that feels and handles like a great deck from USPCC or Cartamundi, but as long as they feel at least reasonably playable in my hands, these and the LotR will definitely be added to the rotation.

I gotta say, I'm sure liking what I see here in these photos.

EDIT: By the way, I'm very much digging this conversation. I definitely see the different points of view on this topic. All great points to bring up.

[alric]

Can we please move past this?

These cards were never going to handle super smoothly. Everybody knew it, even Jackson himself. Jackson has said many times that these will not obviously not handle as well USPCC.

I never understand why some people are content to limit themselves. In this day and age of custom playing cards, it's not too much to expect and demand BOTH great design AND great handling. Obviously everyone prefers a great design, but why limit yourself to great design but shit handling? Even if you're not a cardist, you should still expect a deck to handle at least decently. Rousselle brought out a great example with NPCC decks. They put out some gorgeous decks, but they handle like utter shit. I, therefor, never buy any deck printed by them, regardless of how great they look. I even find myself avoiding Lotreks decks now. They look exquisite, but Lotrek doesn't seem to have a clue on what constitutes a great finish that is conducive to a great handling deck. Especially considering the prices he charges, it's an easy pass.

Jackson does not have a monopoly on well designed decks, we have lots of designers (Lorenzo, Alex Chin, Giovanni, to name a few) that produce great design and don't find it beneath themselves to utilize USPCC or Carta Mundi to have great handling as well. And I'll put their decks up against ANYONE design-wise. Even non-China EPCC/LPCC can make acceptable handling decks. With the list of great designers expanding while my playing card budget sadly not expanding, I prefer to get decks that have it all. Especially with how expensive decks are getting now days, why not demand and expect higher standards all around? I find it very interesting how Jackson used to defend China EPCC and talked a big game about improving handling, but ultimately it was just unrealized lip service, and now it seems he's dropped them like a flaming hot potato.

I'm pretty disappointed to find out the Mistborn decks are being printed by a no name printer that can't produce a quality finish. For some reason, I thought these were going to be made by China EPCC, like his other foiled decks. China EPCC may be inadequate for cardistry, but at least they were OK to shuffle and deal for regular card play. Since I'm a Sanderson fan, I think I went in for a brick, but if these are a step backwards from his previous decks, then I'll just have to unload them onto Jackson's fanboys. Oh well, I liked Stormlight Archives better than Mistborn anyways.

[Harvonsgard]

... but Lotrek doesn't seem to have a clue on what constitutes a great finish that is conducive to a great handling deck.

Lotrék made some big promises in the past, which I agree weren't quite met if you look at it objectively but I personally cut him some slack because he procrastinates... err produces... I wanted to write produces, everthing on his own and not just entirely outsources his production to printers like 99% of the card designers/producers.
His latest deck Morésque definitely is en par with the best not coming from USPCC/Cartamundi. Granted it is not foiled and I'd say we will never have a hot-foiled deck that handles like a non-/cold-foiled deck.

For Mistborn, I gotta say it indeed looks very good (if I wouldn't be a foil stickler, that expect everything to shine like hot foil, I'd even say great) and I would give it a second chance after breaking it in.
I always like to point to Culturæ Animalis. Out of the box a expectedly (because gilded) poor performance. But I handle my decks regularly and after spending some hours of faro/riffle shuffling, fanning and doing some basic cuts it performed perfectly. Even fans and spreads across the board. So I personally wouldn't dismiss this printer after a first impression but only after a thourough handling period.

Anyone gifts away a poor performing Mistborn deck in return for a thourough verdict after a week worth of testing ?

[laitostarr777]

I can see why Jackson went with this printer art-wise, but handling is sadly not up to par - fans are sort of clumpy - thankfully I got this for the illustrations

-pics-

I hope it is not too late for me to get this deck. Nobody told me there is a wolf in the court cards - and I must get it to see for myself, and in turn, get to read the Mistborn stories

Also, if art deck handling is poor, then I think it doesn’t affect much, as art decks are meant to be just: browse through the cards and see the artwork and enjoy tilt it under sunlight to see the foils. Good handling on art decks are like extra seasoning

[hsbc]

KWP has done other decks with this printer, yes?

I think this is their first with this printer, and the upcoming Sterling deck will also be printed with them

[rockets455]

i am shocked that this unknown company that makes puzzles did not make a deck of cards that handles well. who could have seen this coming except for everyone. it's no wonder the name is being kept secret

Can we please move past this?

These cards were never going to handle super smoothly. Everybody knew it, even Jackson himself. Jackson has said many times that these will not obviously not handle as well USPCC. They are art cards first and foremost. He has found a manufacturer that fits his requirements very well, and by these images it looks like Jackson got exactly what he wanted. Unfortunately for some, handling is not a super high priority for him, and has nothing to do with why he's keeping his manufacturer a secret.

The same complaints would likely appear if he was still producing these with EPCC, so the fact that they make puzzles is irrelevant.

That said, these cards look gorgeous, and I can't wait to get mine whenever he ships out the orders with gilded decks.

theres another company who can put foil everywhere and has good quality and that's cartamundi yet kwp refuses to work with them because they slighted kwp in the past or didn't reply in a timely manner or something I don't know but now because of this grudge kwp is holding, we are getting subpar trash quality cards. so no I cannot move past it. just because it is an art deck does not mean it has to handle like trash. we should expect better from a juggernaut like kwp instead of defending their bad printer choices

KWP has done other decks with this printer, yes?

I think this is their first with this printer, and the upcoming Sterling deck will also be printed with them

thanks, i hate it

[JacksonRobinson]

There is a reality with playing cards, honestly, it is a reality in absolutely anything that deals with human beings. There will never, ever be a case where you make 100% of the people happy. You will have some people love what you are doing on Monday and then vomit all over your name on Tuesday.

If someone prints with UPSCC - "AHHHH!!! USPCC sucks!! their registration is crap, why the heck would you choose them!? You suck!!! You have no concept of quality control.

If someone prints with Cart -"AHHHHH!!!! Cart sucks! the S&*TTy lenin finish on their cards completely distorts and destroys the art you work so hard on!!!! How dare, you!!! You suck! If I'm gonna pay $18 for a stack of paper, that artwork better well leap off the page!

If I print with EPCC "AHHHHH!!!! EPCC sucks! You are a horrible business owner! how dare you print with that shmuck of company.

Every aspect of the playing cards I care about. Do I care about some aspects more than others? Absolutely. Do I care about the art and quality of the printing more than I care about the handling, absolutely, I may have tried to hide behind this in an effort to appease the masses in years past but appeasing the masses proves to be more work than the actual production and creation of the deck in the first place.

I listen to what people have to say and do my best to both accommodate as well as improve all aspects when it doesn't mean my highest priority focuses are not compromised.

On the flip side, I 100% don't listen to those who can't have a constructive conversation about how actually to make things better for everyone rather than opening their mouth about a subject they may only know 5% of what the whole picture is. I haven't said any names but those people I could care less about making happy, cuz there is going to be nothing in life that is going to make them happy. If you are reading this and already getting mad, and formulating your incredibly well thought out response that will send me into internet oblivion, I'm sorry to say but you ARE Karen, and you are that person that I and most likely every other playing card designer filters out as noise.

There are plenty of people in this community who have openly been critics of me for a while, and that's ok. Some of those people have also been able to articulate their thoughts in a way that actually moves both parties forward.

Yes! absolutely critique the finish and the handling. I'm not asking anyone to overlook it or am I trying to broom it under a rug. But critique it in a way that benefits and not in a way that just reaffirms that society is losing all forms of nuance and communication.

Don't judge something you haven't even seen. Yes, of course, there are trusted voices that you can listen to to get a good frame of the context of what you are spending your money on. The majority of the people who purchase from me, and more specifically purchased Mistborn knew exactly what they were getting and what to expect.

I could go into long explanations of why I choose not to print with Cartimundi or why I choose this printer over that printer, but those explanations mean nothing when talking to someone who has already made up their mind.

Again if this post makes you angry and ready to word vomit all over me, that's ok. Word vomit to your heart's delight. You are just like 100s of other people who have come and gone in the playing card world and you will soon be gone, and those that remain for the long haul will be those that actually love both the craft of playing card creation and the process of building its community.

[EvilDuncan]

Could not have said it better myself. We have seen one person who has received their deck and posted their opinion about it (it's a valid opinion, not saying it isn't), and yet suddenly we have people who read "handling is sadly not up to par - fans are sort of clumpy" as

subpar trash quality cards.

Why don't we just wait until we've gotten more than a singular opinion? Jackson went with this printer because unlike USPCC, they can do the combination of printing/foiling he wants, and shipping from EPCC in China is way too expensive. That's it.

[hsbc]

and shipping from EPCC in China is way too expensive.

But... these were also made in China, and surely had to be shipped from there?

we are getting subpar trash quality cards.

I didn't say they're trash quality - they aren't. If anything I'm pretty forgiving about handling - I have and love the Acre deck, which is literally handmade with paper - but even with my amateur fanning and shuffling skills (or lack thereof), I can pick up a USPCC or Cartamundi deck and when I try to fan them it's nice and even and smooth. These are simply not the same... but I expected that and don't mind!

If someone prints with Cart -"AHHHHH!!!! Cart sucks! the S&*TTy lenin finish on their cards completely distorts and destroys the art you work so hard on!!!! How dare, you!!! You suck! If I'm gonna pay $18 for a stack of paper, that artwork better well leap off the page!

Which brings me to this - people don't like how art looks on their (admittedly rough) linen finish? I love the feel of it and even love the look, the finish has more variety than a more even pattern like USPCC finish (am I using these terms right?? )



Also, since the color was hard to get right under a lamp, here's a picture of the tuck in sunlight

[EvilDuncan]

But... these were also made in China, and surely had to be shipped from there?

Huh, you're right. I don't know why, but I thought these were made somewhere else. Lol Jackson did say he doesn't really know how to pronounce their name, so I guess that tracks.

[Harvonsgard]

people don't like how art looks on their (admittedly rough) linen finish?

It'sa me; MARIO! (N64 kids will get the reference)
Not feeling it. I can look past it but am not going to lie that I'm kinda releaved whenever producers don't use them. I prefer subtle patterns.
Their softness - which got better aka a tad stiffer since slimline - is the biggest factor for me disliking Cartamundi though.

I don't know why, ...

Maybe because you were told the reason not printing with EPCC anymore is shipping costs.

[shunterino]

I didn't say they're trash quality - they aren't.

Do you own Robin Hood or one of the other heavily foiled KWP decks produced by EPCC? Those are what I would consider unreasonably poor quality cards even for an art deck so I was wondering how the Mistborn deck compares to them.

[JacksonRobinson]

I didn't say they're trash quality - they aren't.

Do you own Robin Hood or one of the other heavily foiled KWP decks produced by EPCC? Those are what I would consider unreasonably poor quality cards even for an art deck so I was wondering how the Mistborn deck compares to them.

I don't think I trust your judgment, linoleum tiles are way easier to shuffle than Robin Hood.

[laitostarr777]

I do own: Robin Hood, Beowulf, Wizard of Oz
Those decks are produced by EPCC - and it is the most foiled decks I’ve ever seen - BUT, the cards become very bendy, and over time, it gets even bendier. I have post a photo of how my Oz deck become when I took it out - very bendy and even at the point it starts to push out from inside the tuck - would be impossible for me to take photos of the cards straight.
But I do accept the facts that these are art decks and are not meant to be used for daily use - so as this deck that so many people quickly judge for bad handling and concludes this deck sucks because of it, even though the artwork is good

Personally, now I am more lean towards Cartamundi, even though they are still using slim stock. While USPCC’s handling are still worshiped by many others, that doesn’t excuse for the repeating offset problems they keep on doing (if there is petition to boycott USPCC, ill be the first to sign up) - although it’s alright creators still choose USPCC over Cartamundi - it’s their decision, and we just have to deal with it.

I would try to get the Mistborn deck - i wanna see and feel (and smell) these cards myself

[STLBluesNut]

i am squarely in the camp of not caring about handling at all. for me, design and value are king. there has been only one deck i can remember that handling was so bad that i noticed how bad it was. i think they mixed a fine sand into their finish. it was quite literally like rubbing sand paper together. very gritty. if portfolio 52 is correct in its recently added filter this was the 17th deck i purchased out of now over 400 unique decks.

bombshells.PNG (171.86 KiB) Viewed 6262 times

[Bradius]

I can say without a doubt, the most foiled KWP deck is the first version of the Legal Tender Holographic Edition. That baby was THICK and handles tough. I have several of the cards on my desk and for some odd reason, I love those cards. Sure they handle like linoleum, but the cards are just mesmerizing. Call me odd. I used to hate that deck, now I like it. I don't want more versions in full holo foil (please), but I do like it.

Since we have been talking about card manufacturers, I am surprised NPCC and their "stinky" cards were not brought up. So, I am now including that into the record.



Please continue the conversation. I can use some light entertainment these days.

I took advantage of KWP's recent sale to pick up a few of my favorites for $12-$13 each with free shipping. Alice in Wonderland, Arthurian HG, Sherlock Holmes Baker Street 2nd Edition and Black Reserve Note (2nd/foil standard version). Nice decks at a great price to open and use.