Charitable Deck (moved comments)

[montenzi]

EDIT: UC mods created a separate thread with comments from this topic: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=19893

All I see in the recent "help Ukraine" trend is the lack of education, double standards, fakes, and suppression of information by MSM.

I will repeat my question - WHY NOW? This war did not start last week. It's an 8 years old conflict where more than 10000 civilians were killed by the Ukrainian army.

Now, this so-called UA army uses civilians as a shield, bombs cities using cassette bombs, and so on. And yes, they say it's Russians (no surprise). Yesterday they attacked Donetsk using tactical missile Tochka-U, and more than 20 people were killed (no reports in MSM). Do you want to support these people directly? Is there any chance that money will not be used to support ultra-nazi battalions (more than 25% of UA army)? Are you willing to share information (not fakes) about crime from both sides of the conflict? if it's not the case, this fundraising will never stop this conflict, and it will not help people in need.

I am against wars, but I am also against people who use this sad situation to promote their so-called "kindness."

I am not going to post links here, but I can provide more information on request with links and photos to support my statement.

[montenzi]

The simple answer as to “why now” is because now is when I’ve become aware of it. Forgive me for not being more knowledgeable. My goal was to send funds to the humanitarian efforts for refugees and/or medical care and food and supplies NOT to the military or any faction responsible for fighting.

It's absolutely fine helping people. But ignoring past crimes or past wars simplify the reality. That's why such fundraising looks fake to me.

How to support real people? Most of UA charities are under control of military forces. Let's say https://razomforukraine.org/38-tons-on-the-way/ Quote: "The first shipments of tactical medicine (purchased & shipped on day two of the war) are now arriving to civilian territorial defenses in Kyiv and Zhytomyr oblasts in Ukraine. "

I'll translate from English to English here. In a huge number of cases "territorial defenses" are responsible for closing humanitarian corridors and killing people who are trying to run from cities (remember, army needs a shield) ! One out of 1000s examples: Brent Renaud (Times reporter) was killed yesterday on a "territorial defenses" checkpoint in the area without Russian troops.

Would you like to support families of people killed in yesterday's bombing in Donetsk? I can help. Easy? Not even close. But you will help people and raise awareness about war crimes. Or find another group of real people and help them.

[montenzi]

Conspiracy theories aside, I'd definitely get that deck. The first one with the quadrants being blue looks beautiful

Conspiracy theory? Why? You will not find it on CNN as it's against their narrative. I am talking about this yesterday's attack.

https://www.google.com/search?q=донецк+ ... =974&dpr=1

[Bradius]

montenzi, I am at a loss for words. I have been following this conflict for a long time as well, and...well...we get our news from entirely different spots. The fact that we could be watching the same events and come away with entirely different perspectives. ENTIRELY different perspectives is quite shocking. I know the Russians are good at false flag operations, but ... wow.

In this case, it is clear that the Russians are the aggressors and that the pretext for this "Special Military Operation" is totally fabricated. Ukraine is not "rightfully" Russian. Ukraine does not want to be freed by the Russians. They are not run by Neo-Nazi puppets of the West. In fact, I am rather disappointed at the lack of support from the "West" despite Russia's aggressive sabre rattling. Ukraine's overwhelming support against an aggressive neighbor invading them is admirable. The displacement of millions of citizens is so sad. The affect on this war will leave scars that will last generations. The civilian casualties inflicted by the Russian invaders is insane. Forcing evacuation routes only to Russia or Belarus. Attacking civilians indiscriminately.

I suggest you reflect on what this would be like if your country was invaded and liberated by another group. This type of military action has to stop if we are ever going to survive for much longer in the future.

I will not even get into the long term ramifications that Ukraine voluntarily and completely disarmed their nuclear arsenal. I can only guess many more countries will be developing and stockpiling nuclear weapons as a deterrent for this happening to them. Our world just has taken a huge leap toward annihilation. By the way, title one and two of that agreement states: "1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine. 2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."

That said, there is likely truth on both sides of the fence. However, I have tons of reasons not to believe what comes from Russian controlled media.

Back to the topic. i am in favor of providing humanitarian relief and your thoughts are admirable. I would just suggest you promote relief efforts so that all of the funds go to worthy places instead of this project. I would rather my funds go directly to helping causes. I know you are not doing this for a profit, quite the opposite, so your hearts are in the right place.

[GandalfPC]

Complain about the MSM as much as you want, but it doesn’t mean that you should turn to the state controlled media from Russia where telling any story that isn’t Putins desire to tell is illegal. Putin, who kills and lies before his morning coffee gets cold.

There are other news sources out there - you should really find one.

Regarding nazi military - yeah they do have a battalion that started up - and they did form more battalions, and there are arguable percentages of each that are arguably neo nazi - the fact that they protected a major port or some such in a fierce battle gave them some political pull - there are plenty of non russian news sources for this.

In 2019 in the USA more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide - and while 10,000 over 8 years is a pretty big deal, it may not require a world size effort to provide aid.

Currently a few million people are in need - Poland is not able to take them all - some are coming to USA - russian military is in the process of an all out invasion - it catches our attention. We notice. Some of us even give a sh*t.

Sure, we could care more, and more often - we could set our focus on every awful thing and give all we have - remember Syria - people still screwed there pretty darn bad. Some other countries we never even bothered more than a day of news on - perhaps they weren’t white enough or wealthy enough - or have enough oil in the ground.

But you know - we cant all be ignorant of the worlds ills all the time - we can’t whip out our favorite excuse every time

It is of note that there has only been one Mother Theresa - and that frankly rather than look up her name I will admit that I am only 50% on whether I have bothered to learn to spell her name right.

I can say in my life I have been asked to help thousands of times, by street corner Santa’s on Christmas (I guess those people don’t need help the rest of the year), by kids and firemen outside shopping centers, by causes large and small in print and television commercials - on the radio.

I can also say that I have heard of awful things happening nearby and around the world about 5x that many times, if not 20x

The reason why I hear about and see these things is because people are in need of help, and they hope to get my attention, or someone’s - and they know they are competing against every other awful thing, and competing against my personal life and whether that I am not some kind Mother giving my life to the needy - I own a house, a car, computers, I buy food and cards beyond what would keep me alive. I am who they must try to pry a dollar from each time.

So forgive me if I try to do my little part, in a cause that you have problems with - go find a cause you believe in - help them - and stop thinking you can judge a populace under attack - most of that populace were just trying to feed their kids before the invasion began and now they have it do it as refugees.

[GandalfPC]

I would also add that as you make decks, and have been aware of some situation in Ukraine for the past 8 years you think needed addressing, you had as much of a platform as Butterflies or Wonders to bring some attention to it.

I wouldn’t bother trying to make a deck supporting Putins invasion though…. Perhaps for the russian market

So if you didn’t bring up Ukraines troubles here for the past bunch of years, why are you so involved in them now?

Perhaps its the same reason everyone else is, because it has managed to capture the worlds attention - and we don’t like what we see.

[montenzi]

They are not run by Neo-Nazi puppets of the West.

UNFORTUNATELY, they are. If you want, I can continue this discussion.

.

I asked a couple of simple questions, and I am against war as a method of conflict resolution. I am just trying to bring attention to people on both sides of the conflict and don't be silent about crime (huge crime). Read my comments again. Look, when you donate now you take one side of the conflict, and in most cases you donate to army. I don't think it's appropriate. Most of civilian casualties and military operation on are in Donbass as Azov/UA army uses people as a shield and doesn't respect humanitarian corridors, and they kill civilians!!! If you don't like what I am saying, it's fine! Time will tell.

I have different sources of information. Most valuable are from people from inside of this conflict (journalists). I can also read in Russian. All I see is a one-sided story, and it's extremely dangerous as most of us don't have time to understand what is happening now, why it happened, and what is next. There will be bad consequences as a result of such approach for everyone. The problem is much deeper, unfortunately.

BTW, you can call it propaganda, ok. Watch it! It's a good review about this conflict. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SqdSVmJQLA

turn to the state controlled media from Russia where telling any story that isn’t Putins desire to tell is illegal.

It's not illegal Have you ever been to Russia or watched TV/read newspapers?

It's funny, but there is no government controlled media in Russia except of a couple of TV channels (local and RT). Oh wait, there was one - Echo of Moscow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_of_Moscow Imagine, it was a "liberal" anti-Putin media controlled by Gazprom(!!!). Funny enough? They had to finance it as it's not profitable in Russia to have such news outlets. All channels from around the world are available there - CNN/ABC/FOX/AlJazeera/Euronews etc. None of them are blocked. Now look at hysteria around RT. In my opinion - don't watch it if you don't like it. Why this channel is blocked in some countries? p.s. I don't watch RT.

[GandalfPC]

On 1 March 2022, Russian authorities blocked access to Echo of Moscow and Dozhd, Russia's last independent TV station, claiming that they were spreading "deliberately false information about the actions of Russian military personnel".

Also, In June 2009, a wide-ranging investigation by the International Federation of Journalists into the deaths of journalists in Russia was published. At the same time, the IFJ launched an online database[5][6] which documents over three hundred deaths and disappearances since 1993.

And though I have not been to Russia, I know better than to believe that a country with a “last independent TV station” is a free press country.

As it was, they had to dance a tightrope to stay on the air, but trying to report news on the war that putin didn’t like was enough to put them on a shorter leash still.

[montenzi]

On 1 March 2022, Russian authorities blocked access to Echo of Moscow and Dozhd, Russia's last independent TV station, claiming that they were spreading "deliberately false information about the actions of Russian military personnel".

Yes!!! They did it as there is always a red line. This station was backed by Kremlin directly, and they tried to avoid closing this station for many, many, many years. It's unbelievable! But i was a demand from people to shut down this trash. And you know, according to the new law, it's a criminal offense if you post misinformation about the army.

When you see quests from UA on a government backed station asking killing Russians, it's a red line. Questions?

BTW, The Nobel Peace Prize 2021 was awarded to Russian journalist from one big newspaper. There are definitely some problems but people dont trust media anyway (the level of support is maybe ~30%)

[GandalfPC]

When a country full of people wants so badly to get rid of the last independent station, seeing what I have seen of their coverage and seeing what I have seen of russian state TV coverage, well, its a frightening thing to think that a whole nation is so hornswaggled.

I am going to leave it here, as we can disagree all day about them being enlightened or mislead - you certainly have no chance of changing my mind on the matter, so it seems unfair I should engage in debate with you to change yours.

[CourtCurator]

BTW, you can call it propaganda, ok. Watch it! It's a good review about this conflict. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SqdSVmJQLA

These guys use a combination of emotional appeal, tribalism, truth, half truth, the omission of important/complicated facts, and distortions of the truth (if not flat out lies) to normalize horrific behavior that ultimately undermines the tenants of democracy by pushing the idea that brutality and the suppression of freedoms are acceptable ways to govern, as a means to an end. And it is not just these guys. There is a frighteningly large ecosystem that propagates this type of propaganda, which is designed to weaken democracy in favor of governing through authoritarian rule in service to a world view that has been slowly dwindling in popularity. As social norms change, fear is ruling those who find themselves in a world they do not feel comfortable in. So much so, these uncomfortable people have found ways to rationalize and distort reality in ways that excuse what they would normally feel is horrific behavior. Ultimately, this is how all wars are rationalized; through dehumanizing (by one or both sides) to the point where it feels excusable to murder. This video aims to further the acceptance of authoritarian tendencies within democracies, not just in service to the war in Ukraine, but in service to undermining democracy itself. This is very dangerous stuff if you are a someone who values freedom and peaceful coexistance. Clearly, as rational people, we all see ourselves as supporting freedom and peace, but any time we are asked to sacrifice our freedom, the freedom of others, or peaceful coexistence in service to other ideals, it should put us all on high alert as to why. It will also require a lot of self reflection, an honest look at our own biases, and a clear eyed view of how they may be manipulated in service of power.

I am incredably frightened to see how many people are swayed by this kind of opinion shaping propaganda, and the road it ultimately leads down.

[montenzi]

BTW, you can call it propaganda, ok. Watch it! It's a good review about this conflict. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SqdSVmJQLA

These guys use a combination of emotional appeal, tribalism, truth, half truth, the omission of important/complicated facts, and distortions of the truth (if not flat out lies) to normalize horrific behavior that ultimately undermines the tenants of democracy by pushing the idea that brutality and the suppression of freedoms are acceptable ways to govern, as a means to an end. And it is not just these guys. There is a frighteningly large ecosystem that propagates this type of propaganda, which is designed to weaken democracy in favor of governing through authoritarian rule in service to a world view that has been slowly dwindling in popularity. As social norms change, fear is ruling those who find themselves in a world they do not feel comfortable in. So much so, these uncomfortable people have found ways to rationalize and distort reality in ways that excuse what they would normally feel is horrific behavior. Ultimately, this is how all wars are rationalized; through dehumanizing (by one or both sides) to the point where it feels excusable to murder. This video aims to further the acceptance of authoritarian tendencies within democracies, not just in service to the war in Ukraine, but in service to undermining democracy itself. This is very dangerous stuff if you are a someone who values freedom and peaceful coexistance. Clearly, as rational people, we all see ourselves as supporting freedom and peace, but any time we are asked to sacrifice our freedom, the freedom of others, or peaceful coexistence in service to other ideals, it should put us all on high alert as to why. It will also require a lot of self reflection, an honest look at our own biases, and a clear eyed view of how they may be manipulated in service of power.

I am incredably frightened to see how many people are swayed by this kind of opinion shaping propaganda, and the road it ultimately leads down.

Wow! Great post, I like it! 100%

But I still believe he explained why it happened and basically translated Putin in other words. That's why I posted this link. I would not say it's propaganda as I don't like this word. It's just his view on the subject. We hear this word every time we don't want to listen. It's dangerous as when we block media/tv channels/journalists for having a different point of view, we create a black and white world.

[CourtCurator]

If you agree with my points above, Im not quite sure why you would have an issue with the use of the word propaganda, as it does appear to be misleading information designed to promote a political agenda. That said, I wholeheartedly agree that we all can benefit from actively listening to each other, especially when it concerns issues that we feel strongly about. There are almost always valid points on all sides of every hot button issue. The world is a much more pleasant place to exist in when we can find ways to compromise. Despite what our strong convictions might lead us to believe, there is no perfect world and often no right answer.