The Successor by TGW/Kevin Cantrell

[veil]

I would say they are DIFFERENT. But in keeping with Kevin's style as seen on the toms town, standards, and tavern on the green decks.

I guess that's why I don't own any of these decks myself.

While I certainly agree that these courts are "different" from most and are "consistent" with some of Kevin's other decks, neither of those terms is synonymous with "good" or "aesthetically pleasing". Of course, for people that like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they will like, but I think these might have less universal appeal than those of The Parlour or The Tempest.

I invite you to go back and read the comments in the Parlour and Tempest deck threads posted here on UC. Neither of those previous decks seemed to have 'universal appeal' in fact there were many more detractors claiming they were 'out' because the courts were TOO standard. I've learned that there's no accounting for taste. Chris Ramsay's 1st playing cards are a testament to that. No doubt those have universal appeal enough to sell out. What I can do is create decks that are full of effort and although some may not like KCS approach or aesthetic there is no denying the effort.

Not to be overly pedantic, but I didn't say that The Parlour or Tempest had universal appeal, only that, in my opinion, this deck might have less universal appeal than either of those. If I say that one person is less smart than another, I'm not saying that either of them is smart; one could be dumb and the other dumber.

Neither did I suggest that the appeal or lack thereof has anything to do with the designs being non-standard. A relatively standard design can be unappealing and vice-versa, and the fact that other non-standard decks have been generally appealing in the past doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the deck we are actually discussing.

Finally, I don't recall saying that there had been a lack of effort on anyone's part; my comments have all been directed toward the result, not the effort. These are independent of one another, and it doesn't ultimately matter how much effort was put into something if one finds the result unappealing.

Of course, no one has a crystal ball, so the proof will be in the pudding.

[vasta41]

This deck is nowhere close to being in any of our hands, yes here we are- 3 pages deep already. I say this one is shaping up to be another great success!

[MagikFingerz]

This deck is nowhere close to being in any of our hands, yes here we are- 3 pages deep already. I say this one is shaping up to be another great success!

That's another measure of success I thought about mentioning. All the TGW decks have had A LOT of discussions, which just woudn't happen to that degree if people didn't care.

[bdawg923]

Criticism of the tempest deck in a bottle editions is what got us the better prism edition in the end! Usually the criticism I've seen here comes from a good place. We all want the project to be better

[wingedpotato]

Criticism of the tempest deck in a bottle editions is what got us the better prism edition in the end! Usually the criticism I've seen here comes from a good place. We all want the project to be better

Not me, man. I want every little detail to cater to my specific idea of what is quality, and for a super low price. Otherwise it's garbage. *sarcasm emoji*

[Eric Lee]

This deck is nowhere close to being in any of our hands, yes here we are- 3 pages deep already. I say this one is shaping up to be another great success!

Oh yeah. Most new deck threads just get buried with barely more than a handful of posts. With such strong response, it can only be a positive thing as it shows how many people are invested in the TGW brand. But glad to hear you're talking to Kevin about the overly busy back. Looking to see further developments.

Omar has said as much that Kevin's no JR, Lotrek or Lorenzo but he has his own inimitable art style which may not be to everyone's liking. Just goes to show how much we expect of the TGW brand after just 2 decks in 2 years. Then again, when your 1st and 2nd decks were done by Lorenzo and Lotrek AND in the top 20 most funded playing card projects; you may have set our expectations way too high after that. Gotta learn to pace yourself there!

[sms69x]

It seems that I'm in the minority here, but I like the artwork. It is not Cantrell's best work, but is way above most of the decks coming out these days.

The thing that scares me is the following:

I can also confirm that this will have several versions.
2 color way standards
1 deluxe limited (cold foil)
1 Dynastinae (gilded)
1 super limited edition printed by Lotrek

5 total.

Once again a stupid amount of variations for the same thing, don't understand why creators keep doing this but it just doesn't make any sense. Specially in the case of TGW where you're forced to buy decks in order to get what you want. I can tell you that I'm only interested in the super limited edition printed by Lotrek (Cantrell's artwork on a Lotrek printed deck, I'm all in), but if this campaign follows the footsteps of the previous I'll be forced to spend a stupid amount of money on things I don't want to get what I want... And I spent way too much money on that campaign, will be ending up with lot of decks I don't want...

So, I wish that you consider these thoughts and create a campaign where backers can pledge for what they want. If the super limited edition have to be priced high then price it that way.. Else you can make it limited to the exact number of pledges, and if you price it a bit higher then I doubt that you'll end up with more that 200-250, and even you you do, who cares, it will still be super limited and not available else where.

By the way, what is your measure for super limited, is it 100? 200? 50? For me it should for sure be below 10, otherwise is just another limited edition deck, like most of KS decks anyway...

[TheGentlemanWake]

It seems that I'm in the minority here, but I like the artwork. It is not Cantrell's best work, but is way above most of the decks coming out these days.

The thing that scares me is the following:

I can also confirm that this will have several versions.
2 color way standards
1 deluxe limited (cold foil)
1 Dynastinae (gilded)
1 super limited edition printed by Lotrek

5 total.

Once again a stupid amount of variations for the same thing, don't understand why creators keep doing this but it just doesn't make any sense. Specially in the case of TGW where you're forced to buy decks in order to get what you want. I can tell you that I'm only interested in the super limited edition printed by Lotrek (Cantrell's artwork on a Lotrek printed deck, I'm all in), but if this campaign follows the footsteps of the previous I'll be forced to spend a stupid amount of money on things I don't want to get what I want... And I spent way too much money on that campaign, will be ending up with lot of decks I don't want...

So, I wish that you consider these thoughts and create a campaign where backers can pledge for what they want. If the super limited edition have to be priced high then price it that way.. Else you can make it limited to the exact number of pledges, and if you price it a bit higher then I doubt that you'll end up with more that 200-250, and even you you do, who cares, it will still be super limited and not available else where.

By the way, what is your measure for super limited, is it 100? 200? 50? For me it should for sure be below 10, otherwise is just another limited edition deck, like most of KS decks anyway...

I understand your point of view but things are done the way they are for very good reasons. The more expensive and limited items require much more in production costs not to mention the time necessary in putting the designs together. Therefore the Standard decks FUND the sale of the more limited ones. If folks chose to only buy the limited decks--as you mention you are interested in doing--TGW--as a brand--would quickly go out of business.

Additionally, I shouldn't have to mention this as it should be fairly obvious... I'm running a business. I don't make enough money making Youtube videos to pay bills so the way that I make my effort worthwhile is generating business via the sale of playing cards. And as evidenced by my last two campaigns the system and schedule of release seems to be working fine for generating revenue.

Also you say that it doesn't 'make sense' to make so many variations. I disagree. The standard decks are always designed with utility and every-day use in mind. The deluxe foiled decks are for collectors. The gilded decks take that a step further. The extreme limited decks are for super collectors and aficionados. And if we only made 10 of them the costs involved in producing plates alone would make them prohibitively expensive. Sure some people might have the disposable funds to buy them but I'd rather 200-300 people enjoy them. Besides we know--from past campaigns--that the market for 200-300 super collectors exists.

If you expect the Successors project to be any different than previous campaigns I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Hope you understand.

[TheGentlemanWake]

One other thing. You are right that most KS decks are limited. In fact to that end ALL Parlour and Tempest decks are limited to their original production numbers -- however because the Blue and Red parlour for instance are not labeled "limited' we reserve the right to reprint if demand is there.

[vasta41]

Omar, let me start off by saying that I have pledged and will continue to pledge for all of your playing cards (unless you partner with Natalia ). I think they are tasteful, beautiful and belong in my collection.

I think you did a good job identifying all the people that would want your cards- the everyday player, the collector and the aficionados. There is one group that you missed, however, and they are the completists. "Back in the day" there used to be one MAYBE two 'regular' versions of a deck and one 'premium' version. It was more easy to obtain every version since there were less of them, thus the entire set would be cheaper.

I realize that we are no longer "back in the day" so I reluctantly stopped being a completist. I simply do not have the funds to do so anymore. But I always roll my eyes when the "just buy what you want/can and don't buy what you don't want/can" argument comes up. Because that doesn't benefit the completist. In fact it drives me crazy because I want to support you but I don't want to give up large portions of my paycheck to do so. I don't know if that's how other completists feel but that's my two cents.

Please understand that I'm not angry with you or your business model. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you- you can't please everybody. I'm just trying to shed some light on the "completist collector" (or former completist in my case) and the struggle we go through



Hello, I'm Paul and I'm a recovering completist.

[brownsl]

Hello, I'm Paul and I'm a recovering completist.

I am in need of an intervention.

[MagikFingerz]

Hello, I'm Paul and I'm a recovering completist.

I am in need of an intervention.

I offer a very effective program based on Buddhism, completely free of charge!

The first step is to give up all your earthly playing card possessions. I'll PM you my address...

[Eric Lee]

I understand your point of view but things are done the way they are for very good reasons. The more expensive and limited items require much more in production costs not to mention the time necessary in putting the designs together. Therefore the Standard decks FUND the sale of the more limited ones. If folks chose to only buy the limited decks--as you mention you are interested in doing--TGW--as a brand--would quickly go out of business.

Also you say that it doesn't 'make sense' to make so many variations. I disagree. The standard decks are always designed with utility and every-day use in mind. The deluxe foiled decks are for collectors. The gilded decks take that a step further. The extreme limited decks are for super collectors and aficionados. And if we only made 10 of them the costs involved in producing plates alone would make them prohibitively expensive. Sure some people might have the disposable funds to buy them but I'd rather 200-300 people enjoy them. Besides we know--from past campaigns--that the market for 200-300 super collectors exists.

Thank you for taking time to explain in such detail. That's one of the things I love about UC. The engagement between the creators and the collectors. I've learnt so much about the entire hobby , including the whole process and production from all of this. Enough to know that running and producing a playing card KS project is not for the faint-hearted and idealist. The things that can go wrong and the backlash from your supposedly supporters/fans.....

[Strag]

I realize that we are no longer "back in the day" so I reluctantly stopped being a completist. I simply do not have the funds to do so anymore. But I always roll my eyes when the "just buy what you want/can and don't buy what you don't want/can" argument comes up. Because that doesn't benefit the completist. In fact it drives me crazy because I want to support you but I don't want to give up large portions of my paycheck to do so. I don't know if that's how other completists feel but that's my two cents.

I had to stop being a completionist some time ago, Jackson cured me of that with his Artists Proofs of everything + overruns + tuck swaps for Murphys + gilded + + +. Shame as I love his designs and now I buy less than ever of his.

I am a "two decker" though in that I try to buy 2 of everything. Originally the justifation to myself was "One to open and one to keep" but it was also to help me justify the shipping costs to the UK. However I am recently having a rethink and very likely to pare my collection down to one of each and sell everything else off. With over 2000 unique decks and almost 5000 decks in total space and display is becoming a very real issue. Now that I am swearing off Kickstarter (no, I mean it this time!) and costs to the UK are going to increase by at least 20% due to the new import rules on small parcels I have to be much more selective than I used to be.

[sms69x]

Thank you Omar for taking the time to explain your vision.

By no means I want to tell you how should you or not run your business, and it is not my intention to depreciate your effort in trying to bring your game to the playing cards world. I'm just expressing my opinion and hope that it can help, in some way, to improve your business. These are honest thoughts that I would give to any of my closest friends, if they ever tried something in this field.

I understand your point of view but things are done the way they are for very good reasons. The more expensive and limited items require much more in production costs not to mention the time necessary in putting the designs together. Therefore the Standard decks FUND the sale of the more limited ones. If folks chose to only buy the limited decks--as you mention you are interested in doing--TGW--as a brand--would quickly go out of business.

I don't see how this is possible. Is not like we are getting the limited ones at half of the price or free for that matter. We are still paying full price on these limited editions. And again, I'm ok with that, I would rather just spend the money on the decks I want.

Also you say that it doesn't 'make sense' to make so many variations. I disagree. The standard decks are always designed with utility and every-day use in mind. The deluxe foiled decks are for collectors. The gilded decks take that a step further. The extreme limited decks are for super collectors and aficionados.

I understand the reasoning in wanting to produce a deck for every playing card aficionados out there, but it seems that your business model contradicts your intention. As, again, we should be able to purchase only what we want. I doubt that any aficionado will want to pay for a brick of decks that he doesn't want in order to get what he is looking for. Sure this is a great way to make money on your end, and it worked so far, but still, you only had 2 campaigns with major names in the playing card world, I'm not sure if you'll be so lucky with Cantrell, but I sure hope so.

And if we only made 10 of them the costs involved in producing plates alone would make them prohibitively expensive. Sure some people might have the disposable funds to buy them but I'd rather 200-300 people enjoy them. Besides we know--from past campaigns--that the market for 200-300 super collectors exists.

If you really want people to enjoy them, then make 1000 or 2000 of those super limited decks and let people who want then be able to get them.

If you expect the Successors project to be any different than previous campaigns I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Hope you understand.

Just as I feared!

I wish you the best of lucks. But I believe this project will be the real trial for your business model. Partnered with Lorenzo and Lotrek on the previous campaigns made it easy on your side and I fear it could have give you the wrong impression on how good your brand can be/is. Still having the name of Lotrek for this one will help you for sure, but it can be a bit short, I'm afraid.
This business model, in my opinion, is unsustainable in the short run, it will be impossible for most of collectors having to spend about $500 on your campaigns to get what they want, and in return keep pilling decks that they have no use for... For now it may be working, as you're only running +/- a campaign per year, but think about when you try to expand your business and make 2 per year? I don't see much collectors keep shelling out almost $1000 and pilling on bricks of decks...

Again, these are my honest thoughts and I don't want to sound harsh on you or your business, hope this can help you in some way!

[Harvonsgard]

I don't see how this is possible. Is not like we are getting the limited ones at half of the price or free for that matter. We are still paying full price on these limited editions.

You can't say that without knowing the numbers. It is fairly possible - and I certainly believe Omar when he says it - with mixed calculation.
To explain it: Instead of selling all different decks with e.g. 15% net profit you sell your cheapest option decks with %50 net profit (numbers just for explanation - not accurate) so that these profits make it possible to sell the most expensive decks for only a small net profit or even at cost (0% net profit).

Omar won't change his ways as long as people support every campaign. Complaining about a business model but then shelling out the money yet again to get the best executed deck won't do anything.

One reason why I don't support any TGW campaign is the fixation on having the best crafted decks super duper uber hyper (not enough buzz words yet?) limited. Then justifying the business model with the high costs (to an extent caused by having then limited) of these decks.
Why are they expensive? - Because they are highly limited.
Yah, but why are they limited at the first place? - Because they are only for super collectors and aficianados who like expensive decks.
I always thought that aficianado means that you have an appriciation for well crafted and top notch products. I didn't know it appearantly means buy bricks of decks you don't want and need unreflected just to get access to a product you would like. I'm glad that I'm not an aficianado then .

Omar seems to not accept the fact that there would be other ways to distribute the decks - see Oath for example.
Pre-orders, different campaigns for different editions, no kickstarter to avoid the 10% cut from ks - just to name a few.

I highly doubt that this business model won't be sustainable though. You're underestimating the power of marketing and psychology. There are enough collector that accept the status quo and keep supporting the brand.

Plus - while I'm not one of them - let's not forget that there are a big bunch of collectors who are happy with how things are run. At the end of the day Omar delivers a top notch product and is an enrichment for the playing card community.
I especially like that he didn't shy away from choosing a designer that isn't as popular amongst collectors like the big names - tip to the hat.

[MagikFingerz]

My (perhaps oversimplified) understanding of the "standards fund the limited decks" concept: The total production cost of all the decks is fixed, and quite high. If anyone could cherry pick exactly the editions they wanted, overall funding would be lower (how much lower is hard to predict, but certainly significantly so). Lower funding means a lower chance of reaching the goal or even covering the total production cost, and even if the limited editions are priced to "carry their own weight", it doesn't matter if there aren't enough standard decks being pledged for. Bundling the more limited editions makes the total amount of decks pledged for, across all editions, basically a sturdy pyramid (standards forming a wide base, and the most limited at the top) rather than a more wobbly tower if they were unbundled.

The model is sustainable as long as there are enough people that want all the editions, or at least like the standards enough to not mind getting them bundled. Like I said earlier, the backer/funding numbers so far speak for themselves. Whether this campaign will follow the trend is something we'll have to see.

[TheGentlemanWake]

My (perhaps oversimplified) understanding of the "standards fund the limited decks" concept: The total production cost of all the decks is fixed, and quite high. If anyone could cherry pick exactly the editions they wanted, overall funding would be lower (how much lower is hard to predict, but certainly significantly so). Lower funding means a lower chance of reaching the goal or even covering the total production cost, and even if the limited editions are priced to "carry their own weight", it doesn't matter if there aren't enough standard decks being pledged for. Bundling the more limited editions makes the total amount of decks pledged for, across all editions, basically a sturdy pyramid (standards forming a wide base, and the most limited at the top) rather than a more wobbly tower if they were unbundled.

The model is sustainable as long as there are enough people that want all the editions, or at least like the standards enough to not mind getting them bundled. Like I said earlier, the backer/funding numbers so far speak for themselves. Whether this campaign will follow the trend is something we'll have to see.

This is the best explanation/interpretation of the model I've yet read. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

Regarding the sustainability... well we will certainly find out. I'm working hard behind the scenes to provide the absolute coolest and most-collection-worthy product I can. Hopefully that, the notoriety of my channel, Kevin's significant IG followin (40k), and satisfied customers from previous campaigns will be enough to keep the momentum going. I don't see KCS as a downgrade from Lotrek or Lorenzo in the least. In fact prior to my working with Lorenzo he'd never had a KS campaign break 90k let alone 150k like we did on Parlour -- and for the record I'm not taking credit for his success at all... just stating the facts.

I have another deck already in progress with Srdjan Vidakovic--some might know him as Widakk. He was the brilliant artist behind the recent Devil in the Details deck that has been making a splash. And I have plans for more. Hopefully things continue as they have as I plan to bring 2 projects to KS a year for the foreseeable future.

[hsbc]

I have another deck already in progress with Srdjan Vidakovic--some might know him as Widakk. He was the brilliant artist behind the recent Devil in the Details deck that has been making a splash.

And the Planets series! I think those were pretty universally loved

[veil]

Regarding the issue of economics and taking The Tale of the Tempest (TTOTT) as an example, there seems to be two main possibilities. The first is that the more limited decks, Prism in particular, need to be bundled with a variety of other decks in order to make them economically viable. The second is that the more limited decks, such as Prism, are viable on their own, but are simply bundled with a variety of other decks in order to sell more decks than would otherwise have been sold.

Unless TGW allows someone to audit the accounting of the campaign, which, to be clear, I’m not putting forth as a reasonable suggestion, we really can’t say which of these two possibilities is true or most true. As far as I can tell, based on the available information, there is some evidence that could reasonably be seen as supporting either of these two possibilities.

For #1, we have TGW’s claim that this is the case. We also know that the cost of producing an all-Lotrek deck with the usual luxury features is quite high compared to almost any other deck.

For #2, we have the fact that, as TGW has pointed out, he is running a business, and the point of a business is ultimately to make money. You wouldn’t really expect him to say that he bundled the Prism with a bunch of other decks and accessories to make more money just because he could, as some might (rightly or wrongly) find this distasteful. Also, the implicit price of the Prism (and even the Dynastinae) is in the same range as many of Lotrek’s own high-end decks which he presumably sells at a profit without any bundling. The Arabesque gold and silver collector editions, for example, were around $85 to $100 each. So, the Prism (and Dynastinae) would need to be significantly more costly to produce than even these decks to be money-losing at the implicit price offered.

As regards the “pyramid” structure previously mentioned, with the standard decks at the bottom and the more limited decks at the top, the approximate numbers from the actual campaign are: Ocean, Dusk, and Midnight: around 2,100 each; Treasure around 550; Dynastinae around 350, and Prism 199. About 800 of each of the standard decks were bundled with the Prism pledges. If we assume that these pledgers would have wanted at least one set of the standard decks in order to have a complete set, that means about 600 (at most) of each were “forced” in order to get the Prism. Therefore, there would have been at least 4,500 standard decks pledged without the brick bundling (and quite possibly more) and 6,300 with. The “pyramid” seems to have a wide base under either scenario, one simply being extra-wide.

In summary, we don’t have enough information to reach a definite conclusion and we almost certainly never will, so it’s basically down to each individual’s conjecture and what they find most reasonable.

[TheGentlemanWake]

The revised Successor White/Gold Deluxe back. Notice that its 'busyness' has been toned down significantly and the TGW monogramed Beetle has been added. Also imagine this deck in GOld Cold foil.

[bdawg923]

Side by side

[laitostarr777]

The revised Successor White/Gold Deluxe back. Notice that its 'busyness' has been toned down significantly and the TGW monogramed Beetle has been added. Also imagine this deck in GOld Cold foil. Screen Shot 2021-01-15 at 1.35.45 PM.png

This style reminds me of that of Standards gold edition~
Looking Good

And, heard that you are planning to make decks with Widak. That's a good choice! He also the man responsible for that intricate tuckbox for Luxury NOCs

[Bradius]

Okay, I have been looking at that beetle until I am blind. I can make out the "T" and the "W" easy. However, if the "G" is in the opposite wing from the one with the "W", then I just can't see it even with my wildest imagination. Is it just me? Am I looking in the wrong place?

[montenzi]

Okay, I have been looking at that beetle until I am blind. I can make out the "T" and the "W" easy. However, if the "G" is in the opposite wing from the one with the "W", then I just can't see it even with my wildest imagination. Is it just me? Am I looking in the wrong place?

@Bradius, I spent five minutes looking at this back, but I cannot find T, W, G!!! I found the beetle instantly. My conclusion: I wouldn't say I like Kevin Cantrell's style. The same happened with the Parlor. Lotrek's design is the best out of three.

[Harvonsgard]

Left wing G, right wing W, body T - y'all welcome.

C515861F-B535-4C75-A3C2-EF3DC21C3724.jpeg (439.21 KiB) Viewed 11082 times

[Bradius]

I swear that "G" wasn't there a few minutes ago. Someone uploaded a new image.

Anyway, thanks Harvonsgard. I "see" it now.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Okay, I have been looking at that beetle until I am blind. I can make out the "T" and the "W" easy. However, if the "G" is in the opposite wing from the one with the "W", then I just can't see it even with my wildest imagination. Is it just me? Am I looking in the wrong place?

@Bradius, I spent five minutes looking at this back, but I cannot find T, W, G!!! I found the beetle instantly. My conclusion: I wouldn't say I like Kevin Cantrell's style. The same happened with the Parlor. Lotrek's design is the best out of three.

It's not The Wake Gentleman .... it's The Gentleman Wake! TGW. not TWG.

[bdawg923]

So it's not The Wylenti Great?

[laitostarr777]

Okay, I have been looking at that beetle until I am blind. I can make out the "T" and the "W" easy. However, if the "G" is in the opposite wing from the one with the "W", then I just can't see it even with my wildest imagination. Is it just me? Am I looking in the wrong place?

@Bradius, I spent five minutes looking at this back, but I cannot find T, W, G!!! I found the beetle instantly. My conclusion: I wouldn't say I like Kevin Cantrell's style. The same happened with the Parlor. Lotrek's design is the best out of three.

It's not The Wake Gentleman .... it's The Gentleman Wake! TGW. not TWG.

I love when people has to looked in closely on the design to find elements. It's just like how Gatorbacks and Hellions, details details and details. That's great