TGW Presents "The Tale of the Tempest" designed by Lotrek LIVE on KS

[jerichoholic]

"Want the most limited deck? Buy a brick!"

Unfortunately Hsbc we have to reward those backers who provide the most funding even though Everyone's pledge is important of course! It would be unfair of me to not allow someone who is spending over $400 a chance at owning one of these. If there are unsold copies I will figure out a way to offer a lottery among backers to be able to buy them.

Actually no you don't. There is nothing that says people who provide the most funding should receive extra bonuses or rewards. You, like some other creators, decided to put them above everyone else. Funny that just shows you care mostly about them and the money imo.

[Ice_Panda]

ahhhhh got ya!

[jerichoholic]

Hi Anzh,

I’m sorry you feel that way. If greed were the issue we would create 2500 of them and obviously make more money. We wanted to reward our biggest supporters—people who’s contribution not only gets them 15 decks and extras but allows me—a person who devotes basically 100% of my free time to providing free high quality content to others—the opportunity to continue to do that. I’ve gone on record as saying that if it wasn’t for the Parlour I would have never been able to continue producing content for youtube. And maybe folks don’t care to watch that content and are only here to get a Lotrek deck. In which case $475 isn’t the cost of one deck. It’s the cost of a brick and three limited decks. The $135 price tag for a deck on the level of crypt is not exactly unprecedented.

Regarding flippers. Thats precisely why we are putting this deck in a bundled tier only. Because we want true and real fans of the deck to get them. Not someone looking for an easy flip. Additionally with 97 left unaccounted for how do you really think things would go if opened to general public? It would be a bloodbath with no guarantee for anyone who really wanted it.

One more thought. Selling the standard decks is what allows for us to offer the stretch goal decks. If it wasn’t for the regular decks selling well we would never have been able to offer the limited ones. So then what does it do for the campaign if people only buy the limited ones? If getting a brick of high quality decks for $140 in a custom brick box with an additional gilded foil deck and another Lotrek limited addition is somehow a greedy money grab then frankly I don’t know what to tell you.

I see, so us other collectors are not real fans??? Not a cool statement to make dude.

Oh you couldn't continue to produce content? Why is that? Because you couldn't afford to buy the decks? So we are paying for your collection now?? I don't understand.

[Ice_Panda]

damn there are some salty people in here. You are damned if you do damned if you don't. It makes sense to me that you would put your limited decks in the tiers of your top supporters. It takes more time and resources for them to create those decks considering they aren't just sending them over to Cartamundi like the standard editions. again its a lose lose situation when you are talking about the limited print run decks. I think if people were honest with themselves they would choose to give the higher pledgers the option for those decks over the lower pledgers. If you dont like it as a consumer you dont have to partake. These decks will sell out regardless

[jerichoholic]

As far as greed is concerned:

There is a significant difference between "I need" and "I want". Sometimes people who badly want something confuse the two words. Nobody needs a $5000 bag. Nobody needs a $200000 car. And certainly nobody needs luxury playing cards. But there are people who WANT these things and some of these people can also afford them.
Now, what makes an item "expensive"? In my opinion two things:
1) Greed, indeed: "Hmm, I'm famous with lotsa fans so I'll buy 50000 t-shirts from Bangladesh for $0,50 each, I'll print "Lotrek The Great" on them and will sell them for $15 each. Hehe, the suckers will buy them! After that I'll do the same with baseball hats".
2) Cost and effort. Whether it has to do with expensive materials, numerous working hours, original inventions which involve experiments that take serious money to the trash bin or doing again and again the same thing until you feel it's perfect. There is a reason why a dinner at Ferran Andria's restaurant costed $400 per person. I wish we could go there with Melina when it was open but we couldn't afford it. This doesn't make Andria a greedy person. (Btw the restaurant closed because apparently the prices weren't high enough to cover the costs...)

When I produce one of our "crazy" decks, I give hundreds of hours in design, testing and printing. Of course I love what I do and that's the reason I do it but it's a mess and that mess has to be compensated.
Based on my calculations, I make less money by selling expensive decks to fewer people.

But I'm greedy for beauty, that's true.

Well true but there was no reason why the green deck had to be printed by you, Cartamundi did a wonderful job last time. Also wouldn't have to be so limited or expensive. I still say print a Cartamundi variant for everyone who wants one.

[jerichoholic]

I’ve been warned that this would happen. That no matter how honest or forthcoming I was people would misconstrue your actions and words to mean something different. I guess I just surprised me that the attacks became personal. Over the availability of a deck? It’s as if people forgot that I’m trying to grow and run a business. Somehow that has a negative connotation. As if profit is a bad word.

Yes I am a collector. As a collector I sometimes have to make difficult decisions. Sometimes selling part of a collection to afford something else is the reality of collecting. People think that because I post videos and give them access—like this thread—that they “know” me or whatever struggles I may have when the truth is one can never know. I’ve had people assume that I’m somehow wealthy because I have a nice living room. The reality Is that living room is in a relatively small apartment. And if you turn the camera 180 degrees you would see a relatively standard looking run of the mill place. Every one struggles to a degree. Like I’ve mentioned before I make videos because I love to make content but also because I’m working towards something. Lord knows YouTube doesn’t Pay the bills. In fact I labored fifteen hours to produce my last video and it got 600 views. My worst performing video of my last ten. Then people wonder where my posts are? Why I haven’t put out a video in three weeks.

And “sold off almost every deck in my collection” lol. Hardly. I also open my decks to auction style bidding. How is that flipping? I’m not setting ridiculous prices. In fact most of my auctions end up way under value. I sold a kings wild project Ltd tigers with the companion standard deck and display deck for less than it cost to buy it. I can no longer sell something at market value? It’s not like I’m taking the dynastinae decks in my private reserve and selling them at market value. I’ve never nor will I ever mark up a TGW deck in the aftermarket.

This is disappointing. I’m tempted to remove myself from this equation. But then I know I’d be letting my disappointment push me away from a forum with community members with legitimate comments and questions.

You can run and grow a business without making decks so limited and expensive. You spent 15 hours on one deck review?

[jerichoholic]

I think it's a little harsh to criticize the campaign for only printing 200 of a deck like this, please correct me if i'm wrong but this Prism edition is printed in a very different way than the large print runs at USPCC or Cartamundi. I don't think it's just as simple as pressing "print more". I'm sure there is also some risk involved with trying new things like this but that risk is much lower when printing 200 vs 2000. Does the printer Lotrek use even have the capacity of printing many more in a reasonable time frame? We've not even seen what's involved with the tuck case yet have we? I'm sure Lotrek could spend his year printing 2000 of 1 "crazy" design and sell them all and make more money than if he had spent his year designing and printing 200-400 of 6 different designs.

Honestly i'm getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over in regards to Lotrek printing decks. Always some excuse about risks and new techniques. They haven't figured it out by now?

[hsbc]

You spent 15 hours on one deck review?

Have you ever tried planning, shooting, and editing a video? It is not a quick thing

Honestly i'm getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over in regards to Lotrek printing decks. Always some excuse about risks and new techniques. They haven't figured it out by now?

Lotrek is constantly trying new things, so it's very often a new challenge and not something already figured out

[bdawg923]

I think it's a little harsh to criticize the campaign for only printing 200 of a deck like this, please correct me if i'm wrong but this Prism edition is printed in a very different way than the large print runs at USPCC or Cartamundi. I don't think it's just as simple as pressing "print more". I'm sure there is also some risk involved with trying new things like this but that risk is much lower when printing 200 vs 2000. Does the printer Lotrek use even have the capacity of printing many more in a reasonable time frame? We've not even seen what's involved with the tuck case yet have we? I'm sure Lotrek could spend his year printing 2000 of 1 "crazy" design and sell them all and make more money than if he had spent his year designing and printing 200-400 of 6 different designs.

Honestly i'm getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over in regards to Lotrek printing decks. Always some excuse about risks and new techniques. They haven't figured it out by now?

Not sure why you're here getting upset over every comment. If you're unhappy with the kickstarter, instead of attacking TGW and Lotrek, go back another kickstarter. It really does amaze me.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Jerichoholic,

Some of the things you've said in the thread are so beyond ignorant that they have become offensive to me. I really shouldn't even dignify it with a response. Yes I put 15 hours into decks reviews. Sometimes more. I think the reason it may be difficult for us to find common ground on what is acceptable, or what my intentions are, or to even understand why spending 15 hours on a deck review is important to me, is probably at the CORE of who we are as people. George Bernard Shaw once wrote "A gentleman puts more in the world than he takes out". Some people think I'm being greedy or only thinking bout the money when I release a highly limited deck. But the truth is I'm thinking about what I would want as a collector--what VALUE i can provide. I put myself 100% into everything I do. I don't slap my cellphone on a stand and spouse a random uneducated and unresearched vomit of thoughts while i unbox a deck. Maybe you've never watched my reviews. That's fair. No one has to. But I think the people who are supporters--even those who can't put financial backing into a project--understand that what I do is for them.

The reason I said that I couldn't continue to make deck reviews without the successes of the Parlour and Tempest is because the playing cards niche is limited. Gaining the subscribers and views needed to make enough money to warrant taking 15 hours of my time to shoot a deck review from youtube revenue alone would require a much bigger audience. I am not a prolific video producer. I don't make 5-10 videos a week like some folks do. i wish I could do that. But my OCD won't let me gloss over a subject without making sure every corner and context was uncovered and explored. THIS is the reason people like Stockholm17 and Lotrek and Kevin Cantrell (my next collaborator) decide to work with me. People somehow forget that I've only been in the public eye for 3 years. Both Lotrek and Lorenzo are RIDICULOUSLY talented and neither need me to achieve success... but they understand that I provide value to the project. Enough that despite lorenzo's epic list of Kickstarter Successes the Parlour still ranks as his highest earning. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. But I hope I had something to do with that success. I hope that my 20 years of marketing and brand experience and making television promotional advertising has transcended beyond being able to edit a cool video or shoot a nice looking sequence. Otherwise I wasted an education.

Sorry to lose you as a backer. Sorry to lose anyone as a backer. NOT MY INTENT. I find this phenomenon of getting mad at a creator for releasing more items very curious and surprising. But I'll chalk it up as a learning experience. Come back on the next one with more refined ideas. But for now I've made a committment to supply my premium tier backers with $415 of value. And just like I've committed to making sure those who backed for a single deck at $17 get their money's worth i MUST do the same for the highest backers--if that means offering them a highly limited deck of only 200 edition size then so be it. I'm not going back on my word now.

Thank you,
Omar -TGW

[aznh]

Funny how everyone on here can tell everyone else how they should and shouldnt say and feel

Pumpers (Omar/Lotrek) will pump while others (realists) call out ppls bullsh*t

must really hurt ur huge egos to have to defend every comment you dont support

classic members

[aznh]

The reason I said that I couldn't continue to make deck reviews without the successes of the Parlour and Tempest is because the playing cards niche is limited. Gaining the subscribers and views needed to make enough money to warrant taking 15 hours of my time to shoot a deck review from youtube revenue alone would require a much bigger audience.

again only about the money for u

[bdawg923]

Funny how everyone on here can tell everyone else how they should and shouldnt say and feel

Pumpers (Omar/Lotrek) will pump while others (realists) call out ppls bullsh*t

must really hurt ur huge egos to have to defend every comment you dont support

classic members

Why you still here though, genuinely curious.

[Meta Collector]

again only about the money for u

It’s one thing to say that you don’t feel the cards are worth their price, but why the need for personal attacks? Omar’s been very transparent throughout the whole process and I feel his price tiers are fair.

If you don’t like the cards, just move on. I doubt whining like an entitled brat will make Omar change his price structure.

[aznh]

Funny how everyone on here can tell everyone else how they should and shouldnt say and feel

Pumpers (Omar/Lotrek) will pump while others (realists) call out ppls bullsh*t

must really hurt ur huge egos to have to defend every comment you dont support

classic members

Why you still here though, genuinely curious.

to reminisce with you quacks...

[PiazzaDelivery]

Funny how everyone on here can tell everyone else how they should and shouldnt say and feel

Pumpers (Omar/Lotrek) will pump while others (realists) call out ppls bullsh*t

must really hurt ur huge egos to have to defend every comment you dont support

classic members

Why you still here though, genuinely curious.

Because he's still getting a rise out of us. Trolls go away when we stop paying attention to them. It's clear that he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's not adding anything to the discussion, so let's just leave it be and let him fill his own echo chamber.

[jerichoholic]

Jerichoholic,

The reason I said that I couldn't continue to make deck reviews without the successes of the Parlour and Tempest is because the playing cards niche is limited. Gaining the subscribers and views needed to make enough money to warrant taking 15 hours of my time to shoot a deck review from youtube revenue alone would require a much bigger audience. I am not a prolific video producer. I don't make 5-10 videos a week like some folks do. i wish I could do that. But my OCD won't let me gloss over a subject without making sure every corner and context was uncovered and explored. THIS is the reason people like Stockholm17 and Lotrek and Kevin Cantrell (my next collaborator) decide to work with me. People somehow forget that I've only been in the public eye for 3 years. Both Lotrek and Lorenzo are RIDICULOUSLY talented and neither need me to achieve success... but they understand that I provide value to the project. Enough that despite lorenzo's epic list of Kickstarter Successes the Parlour still ranks as his highest earning. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. But I hope I had something to do with that success. I hope that my 20 years of marketing and brand experience and making television promotional advertising has transcended beyond being able to edit a cool video or shoot a nice looking sequence. Otherwise I wasted an education.

Sorry to lose you as a backer. Sorry to lose anyone as a backer. NOT MY INTENT. I find this phenomenon of getting mad at a creator for releasing more items very curious and surprising. But I'll chalk it up as a learning experience. Come back on the next one with more refined ideas. But for now I've made a committment to supply my premium tier backers with $415 of value. And just like I've committed to making sure those who backed for a single deck at $17 get their money's worth i MUST do the same for the highest backers--if that means offering them a highly limited deck of only 200 edition size then so be it. I'm not going back on my word now.

Thank you,
Omar -TGW

Ok, I mostly just responded to your comments. To be fair I agreed with a lot of the comments I saw speaking out about the situation and I was far from the only one who made comments. As a collector I would have thought you would have wanted to make things that weren't so exorbitantly priced. You currently have just over 1100 backers, no reason each one couldn't be able to get a "limited" deck, they would still be very limited and exclusive to KS. I'm not sure when it started that decks had to be so limited and so exclusive to be valuable and rare. Red Artifice and White Centurions are very limited and very rare and there was 1000 of each produced, just saying.

I never said I cancelled my pledge, I just dropped out of the more limited decks. I would love to get the 5 decks but I can't justify spending over $240 Cdn not including shipping. That is something creators like you seem to forget when listing decks especially at those prices, you forget about exchange rates for us non-Americans and the associated extra shipping costs too.

I'm sure the backers at that level are already getting the value for what they are paying as it is, if not then you are charging them too much. Maybe instead of creating such tiers and trying to add the value afterwards, just make normal tiers and let people ad on what they want afterwards.

I have seen a video or two of yours and I appreciate the effort put into them and wasn't questioning it, just found it surprising it would take that long I guess, didn't mean any offense there. I find that people tend to like short to the point videos. Although I agree there isn't much of an audience for our content one way or the other, unless you give stuff away constantly, lol. If you aren't making the money you desire from your videos or to live off of then perhaps you should try something else, not use a Kickstarter project to try and prop up your Youtube channel.

Great I can't wait to see how many decks or how limited they are in the next project. I would suggest what someone else said before, limit it to 3 or 4 decks, otherwise it gets to be too much. Perhaps for many the extra expense of some decks wouldn't be so much if there weren't so many versions.

[Meta Collector]

If you aren't making the money you desire from your videos or to live off of then perhaps you should try something else, not use a Kickstarter project to try and prop up your Youtube channel.

I think you’re viewing his videos and Kickstarter campaigns as separate ventures, when they’re really all part of his brand. I’m new to card collecting, but from the videos I’ve seen, Omar’s have by far the most consistently high production quality. Sure, other guys might do better cards tricks and flourishes, but they rarely have that professional quality that Omar’s videos have. I really hope he’s able to continue making them.

[TheGentlemanWake]

If you aren't making the money you desire from your videos or to live off of then perhaps you should try something else, not use a Kickstarter project to try and prop up your Youtube channel.

I think you’re viewing his videos and Kickstarter campaigns as separate ventures, when they’re really all part of his brand. I’m new to card collecting, but from the videos I’ve seen, Omar’s have by far the most consistently high production quality. Sure, other guys might do better cards tricks and flourishes, but they rarely have that professional quality that Omar’s videos have. I really hope he’s able to continue making them.

Exactly! It's thanks to the channel that the Kickstarter projects do so well.

[MagikFingerz]

Some of the complaints here seem to boil down to "I'm angry because I want it but I can't afford it". I don't recall there being this much of an uproar about previous Lotrek decks, which were in the same price range. And how anyone can rationalize that the backers pledging the most money DON'T deserve more than backers pledging less, I have no idea.

Given all possible options, I would have chosen either (A) the three standards, or (B) those plus a Dynastinae. That not being an option, I'll now have to choose between (A) the three standards, or (C) the "one of each 5-pack". It's a different choice, possibly a harder one, but I can't really fault Omar for doing this. It would make less sense business-wise (yes, ONE of the goals of this is to make money, shocking), and he certainly doesn't owe me anything more than what's in the pledge description. If I don't feel like option C provides enough value, or if I simply can't afford it, then I'll choose option A, simple as that.

[vasta41]

I think Tom nailed it but IMO the uproar has to do with the way all these decks and options were sprung upon us. Sorry to keep going back to this but I think it would have been much better, and met with MUCH less resistance, if this were all mentioned prior to launching or on day 1. People would have felt much less pressured and had much more time to digest it.

[TheGentlemanWake]

I think Tom nailed it but IMO the uproar has to do with the way all these decks and options were sprung upon us. Sorry to keep going back to this but I think it would have been much better, and met with MUCH less resistance, if this were all mentioned prior to launching or on day 1. People would have felt much less pressured and had much more time to digest it.

In my defence. I mentioned it several times on the launchstream. AND the price of the premium tier and the fact that it advertised 15 total decks in a way also announced it in a more subtle way. But yes, definitely taking note of this moving forward. PLUS i'd been talking it over here a LOT since that's what lead me to remove the bottled aspect.

[jerichoholic]

I see, so you decided to tell everyone here and on your stream but not mention it on the project itself. Not every backer comes to this forum or has heard of it or watches your stream.

Similar things happened with the recent TCC project, were they kept announcing more and more new limited deck sets and it annoyed backers there too.

[Ice_Panda]

I think Tom nailed it but IMO the uproar has to do with the way all these decks and options were sprung upon us. Sorry to keep going back to this but I think it would have been much better, and met with MUCH less resistance, if this were all mentioned prior to launching or on day 1. People would have felt much less pressured and had much more time to digest it.

I respectfully disagree with this. I think it makes sense from a marketing standpoint to launch and then throughout the launch you showcase other awesome options to regain traction. Also, I think they stated this in the live feed and on here but I dont think they had all the renderings and finalized on the look of the other decks (I could be wrong on this point). Again, just my opinion.

I also think if you are upset with the way stuff is handled you can easily say that in a few lines of one post. at this point these two just look like 14 year olds who just got dumped and are WAY bitter. You are upset. we get it. go away and let the rest of us enjoy the project stop trolling the creators for THEIR decisions on THEIR project.

[Bikefanatic]

It's too much to re-read what's going on because of the quotes making posts look too big.

1.The issue is that people want Dynastimae or/and Prism deck without getting a brick. They feel they should just add them individually.

2.Those Dynastinae and Prism decks wouldn't be made without the cost of a lot of the 3 standard decks? So that's why they're in a tier? If not, why not available out of a tier?

3.Maybe there's not too much material and a new process to make a lot of extra decks so that's why they're limited and costly?

4.If those decks were not limited, people still couldn't afford them?

[shkorc]

When Ondrej was running the Butterflies campaign on KS, you had to buy two bricks if you wanted to get the prototype deck.
Was that fair? I don't know.
Was the campaign successful? Yes, very much so.

[montenzi]

There are a couple of fundamental problems in this project.

Unclear statements or misunderstandings are the only reason for such a reaction.

1. Never discuss pricing on public forums!

2. You say - ok, I cannot produce limited decks without selling tons of standard decks. But people are smart here. They understand that STD and LTD are not related to each other. So when they see 130k in funding, they know that you will only need 10k-15k to produce three STD decks while LTD decks are self-funded as LTD decks are not an upgrade. But to make some money, you have to upsell STD decks and offer a brick for those who want LTD. Simple, right? There is nothing wrong with it. Just say this! When you talk about "values," it's also not clear, and it's not what backers want to hear. Say this: STD "value" is 1:1, LTD value is what they will get one day selling decks on eBay (100-200% profit). At least, it's honest.

3. Saying sorry is also a problem! Sorry for what? It's your time, your project, your brand, your business. You set your own rules as it's your life.

Pricing. If some of you believe that printing 200 decks is an easy task, you are wrong. LOL. Even if you print the same 200 decks at Cartamundi with cold foil (cheaper), it will be $35-40 to cover printing costs. One error and you have to print it again, and it's $70-$80. Standard decks are reasonably priced.

p.s. I am not a backer as I don't buy standard decks. But I like the green deck. How to buy it without standard decks? (trolling here)

Good luck!

[TheGentlemanWake]

There are a couple of fundamental problems in this project.

Unclear statements or misunderstandings are the only reason for such a reaction.

1. Never discuss pricing on public forums!

2. You say - ok, I cannot produce limited decks without selling tons of standard decks. But people are smart here. They understand that STD and LTD are not related to each other. So when they see 130k in funding, they know that you will only need 10k-15k to produce three STD decks while LTD decks are self-funded as LTD decks are not an upgrade. But to make some money, you have to upsell STD decks and offer a brick for those who want LTD. Simple, right? There is nothing wrong with it. Just say this! When you talk about "values," it's also not clear, and it's not what backers want to hear. Say this: STD "value" is 1:1, LTD value is what they will get one day selling decks on eBay (100-200% profit). At least, it's honest.

3. Saying sorry is also a problem! Sorry for what? It's your time, your project, your brand, your business. You set your own rules as it's your life.

Pricing. If some of you believe that printing 200 decks is an easy task, you are wrong. LOL. Even if you print the same 200 decks at Cartamundi with cold foil (cheaper), it will be $35-40 to cover printing costs. One error and you have to print it again, and it's $70-$80. Standard decks are reasonably priced.

p.s. I am not a backer as I don't buy standard decks. But I like the green deck. How to buy it without standard decks? (trolling here)

Good luck!

Thank Montenzi! I appreciate the advice. I will put it into consideration. And I still owe your work a review at some point. i know you were nice enough to send me decks once and they never got on the channel. I haven't forgotten that. Reach out to me next project you have and we'll work something out to get your excellent work featured.

[MagikFingerz]

I think Tom nailed it but IMO the uproar has to do with the way all these decks and options were sprung upon us. Sorry to keep going back to this but I think it would have been much better, and met with MUCH less resistance, if this were all mentioned prior to launching or on day 1. People would have felt much less pressured and had much more time to digest it.

I can agree with this on a general level, and I can understand the uproar if this is what people feel.

But, Omar was clear from the beginning about how many decks there were going to be, and that the brick/premium pledge level was the only way to guarantee all decks. He also said how many of each deck was going to be printed (if not from the beginning, then at least very early), so it shouldn't be hard to realize what your options were going to be.

[Ragzzz]

I had to pull out of this project - despite having the plenty of income to purchase top tier

However- One thing I avoid in collecting things in the past (obsessive nature) is the constant roll out of another edition of such and such thing...

I really don’t need a huge amount of spare decks in my collection because I’m not going through the effort of trying to sell them

I mean...what ever happened to the good old Standard Ed & Ltd Edition only projects

Now there’s a shadow edition, light edition, moon edition, sun, wind, snow, chicken, bacon, vegan, gluten-free edition being released on most dang KS projects

Happened with comic books

Happened with action figure collectibles

Now playing cards

It’s frankly ridiculous