TGW Presents "The Tale of the Tempest" designed by Lotrek LIVE on KS

[TheGentlemanWake]

Honestly I haven’t thought it through completely. Probably in the $110 range for the bottle. It’s not a stretch goal. So not covered by premium tier. I actually don’t foresee making Very many. They are costly to produce.

[Bradius]

Here's the prism edition

Holy Biscuit Eater

I was really hoping this would be an easy pass and just get a brick and the treasured edition to call it a day. I felt I could pass on the gilded version, even the card guard. Dang it.

[Cardians]

As far as greed is concerned:

I'm greedy for beauty, that's true.

I LOVE your greediness when it comes to your art buddy.

Continuing pushing my friend, never mind the noise.

Cheers,
KW

[Bikefanatic]

I'll take a Premium Tier Lite please. I'm assuming next Monday or Tuesday all the extra stuff will be released. Doesn't matter to me when. I just want all 6 decks, I'll add a metal card but not worried about the gaff pack (until I see it).

I agree with others that pledging for Kickstarter shouldn't be stressful or a full time job looking for tier openings. Just like anything else, you have to make/plan time, about 5 minutes or so to change your pledge, unless driving, on the plane or doing something important.

[rousselle]

Here's the prism edition

Holy Biscuit Eater

I was really hoping this would be an easy pass and just get a brick and the treasured edition to call it a day. I felt I could pass on the gilded version, even the card guard. Dang it.

You and me both, Bradius.

Crap.

My wallet and I are going to have to have a difficult conversation.

[hsbc]

But there are people who WANT these things and some of these people can also afford them. ... Based on my calculations, I make less money by selling expensive decks to fewer people.

But... I have $135. I want the Prismatic deck. I would pay $135 for the Prismatic deck. And yet...

[vasta41]

Just like anything else, you have to make/plan time, about 5 minutes or so to change your pledge, unless driving, on the plane or doing something important.

NOT TO MENTION the time it takes to even figure out when to plan for those 5 minutes, what's going to be available and figuring out how much it will cost.

This thread and this project is giving me a headache. Just do it all at once next time, please!!

[Decknowledgy]

But there are people who WANT these things and some of these people can also afford them. ... Based on my calculations, I make less money by selling expensive decks to fewer people.

But... I have $135. I want the Prismatic deck. I would pay $135 for the Prismatic deck. And yet...

Same here... By the look of it, I will never have a chance to cross paths with these even after the campaign, and I'm not that crazy and resourceful to afford all those unnecessary additional decks just for the Prism alone.

On a side note, those who are seeking a chance to sell off the additional decks you get from bundles, if we could learn anything from the previous Parlour campaign, is that the demand will be pretty low in the aftermarket. I don't recall seeing any primary retailer with their Parlour inventory sold out, and there were several cases where Parlour become a frequent giveaway item on Instagram. Basically every playing card enthusiast, retailer, wholesaler had jumped on the campaign bandwagon. Unless you don't mind paying the big bills for duplicates, there's a big chance there's not much profit left for you to flip sale.

[Bikefanatic]

Was the green Palour deck for sale on retail seller sites? The black deck I got after the KS because I changed my mind and glad I did.

The good thing about having duplicates is that not everyone wants to flip them. To sell to current and new collectors at the price you got them for, to break even is great.

How many of you give away decks as a gift or present?

[masagin303]

I would never sell my Parlour decks. On the contrary, secretly hoping that the stock will remain a while, so I can get one more brick. B9 and all...

[irtjames14]

As far as greed is concerned:

There is a significant difference between "I need" and "I want". Sometimes people who badly want something confuse the two words. Nobody needs a $5000 bag. Nobody needs a $200000 car. And certainly nobody needs luxury playing cards. But there are people who WANT these things and some of these people can also afford them.
Now, what makes an item "expensive"? In my opinion two things:
1) Greed, indeed: "Hmm, I'm famous with lotsa fans so I'll buy 50000 t-shirts from Bangladesh for $0,50 each, I'll print "Lotrek The Great" on them and will sell them for $15 each. Hehe, the suckers will buy them! After that I'll do the same with baseball hats".
2) Cost and effort. Whether it has to do with expensive materials, numerous working hours, original inventions which involve experiments that take serious money to the trash bin or doing again and again the same thing until you feel it's perfect. There is a reason why a dinner at Ferran Andria's restaurant costed $400 per person. I wish we could go there with Melina when it was open but we couldn't afford it. This doesn't make Andria a greedy person. (Btw the restaurant closed because apparently the prices weren't high enough to cover the costs...)

When I produce one of our "crazy" decks, I give hundreds of hours in design, testing and printing. Of course I love what I do and that's the reason I do it but it's a mess and that mess has to be compensated.
Based on my calculations, I make less money by selling expensive decks to fewer people.

But I'm greedy for beauty, that's true.

I appreciate the thought Lotrek. And out of my pure curiosity, my question to you and TGW is... why produce so little of the prism edition and making it valued so high? Why not produce more of the prism edition while lowering the price some, as this should lead to more than enough compensation for all the hours that you guys have put in? Given how awesome this prism edition looks, this will definitely attract a lot of people too. If exclusivity is the reason behind this, then I have nothing more to say, except that the value is indeed high..

But I guess this is also a general question for a lot of the creators as well as this seems to be common practice by many people...

And I appreciate that you are greedy for beauty, one aspect that should never be taken away from any designer!

[TheGentlemanWake]

As far as greed is concerned:

There is a significant difference between "I need" and "I want". Sometimes people who badly want something confuse the two words. Nobody needs a $5000 bag. Nobody needs a $200000 car. And certainly nobody needs luxury playing cards. But there are people who WANT these things and some of these people can also afford them.
Now, what makes an item "expensive"? In my opinion two things:
1) Greed, indeed: "Hmm, I'm famous with lotsa fans so I'll buy 50000 t-shirts from Bangladesh for $0,50 each, I'll print "Lotrek The Great" on them and will sell them for $15 each. Hehe, the suckers will buy them! After that I'll do the same with baseball hats".
2) Cost and effort. Whether it has to do with expensive materials, numerous working hours, original inventions which involve experiments that take serious money to the trash bin or doing again and again the same thing until you feel it's perfect. There is a reason why a dinner at Ferran Andria's restaurant costed $400 per person. I wish we could go there with Melina when it was open but we couldn't afford it. This doesn't make Andria a greedy person. (Btw the restaurant closed because apparently the prices weren't high enough to cover the costs...)

When I produce one of our "crazy" decks, I give hundreds of hours in design, testing and printing. Of course I love what I do and that's the reason I do it but it's a mess and that mess has to be compensated.
Based on my calculations, I make less money by selling expensive decks to fewer people.

But I'm greedy for beauty, that's true.

I appreciate the thought Lotrek. And out of my pure curiosity, my question to you and TGW is... why produce so little of the prism edition and making it valued so high? Why not produce more of the prism edition while lowering the price some, as this should lead to more than enough compensation for all the hours that you guys have put in? Given how awesome this prism edition looks, this will definitely attract a lot of people too. If exclusivity is the reason behind this, then I have nothing more to say, except that the value is indeed high..

But I guess this is also a general question for a lot of the creators as well as this seems to be common practice by many people...

And I appreciate that you are greedy for beauty, one aspect that should never be taken away from any designer!

The simple answer is limited items being more rare retain more value. That value is a strong building block for any brand. Having 10k decks with no scarcity in the long run hurts a brand identity. But if you have 10k decks and 200 decks the balance is struck. It’s simple rules of supply and demand. Ultimately I’m building a brand that I hope will have a lasting presence. Part of developing that presence is understanding that mass production is not always the way to go. I’m a collector. I understand that not having everything offered in a campaign in my collection is not ideal. But it’s that feeling that creates a sense that a product is specials. Because it is. Now the one place where I’ll always try to keep customers in mind is value and quality. Just because we can set a high barrier to entry doesn’t mean we can be lazy in our effort to make those who can enter feel like they are getting their money’s worth. As a collector I make choices as to what I collect. I don’t always buy all the decks offered in a campaign. Sometimes it doesn’t make sense to. That’s okay. For me it makes what I do get when I’m able to extra special

In fact I have no doubt we could have sold 2500 of these decks. So we are losing some opportunity for profit. But understanding that in the long run it benefits the brand to offer some items in very limited numbers.

[Adonael]

Maybe it's just because I've been following from the start, but we've always known there would be multiple limited decks (and anyone who knows Lotrek knows that his high-end limited decks usually run around 300 copies or less so that's not a surprise), and I've had a long time to accept that I won't be able to afford them all lol. Just having one of them is enough for me even if I'll forever have a few more gaps in my collection. Since when hasn't it been a fact of life that wealthy people get all the best inanimate objects? In the real world every second of every day teaches that lesson, chance governs all and you have to work with what you're dealt, getting mad because you can't have everything is ridiculous and entitled. I don't get mad because I don't have a grand tourer type supercar, if you want to do something about it go and fight against the unprecedented wealth inequality and the systems which continue to let it become worse, don't blame creators for making something special.

[shkorc]

Someone should tell Ferrari they need to make 50.000 cars per year, instead of 8400.

That will bring costs down and everyone will be able to buy one, or two

[aznh]

Adonael, yes everyone knows who u r and thankfully you don’t have the moderators power of banning ppl for voicing opinions cause youd be quick to throw your power around

I can't believe this person hasn't been banned yet.

Let’s ban u for quoting something I never said -yahh for u for putting words into ppl mouth Im sure u do that a lot

Omar u state your a collector and understand what collectors want but here u are, selling off almost every deck in ur collections on eBay. Youre a flipper as well so dont cheat urself.

Its Ok everyone -as this is my last post to this wild gong show Omar calls a campaign. My pledge will be withdrawn with no love lost and those suckers -I mean collectors can enjoy ur next over-priced decks that Omar believes is the next best thing since sliced bread.

[Harvonsgard]

If greed were the issue we would create 2500 of them and obviously make more money.

Damn... I wish you guys would be greedy then.

In all seriousness though, things like that are exactly why I'll probably never will give one dollar to campaigns like this (or RS for that matter). Buy X to get access to Y is just shady and has nothing to do with rewarding those who support the most.
"All pledges are equal but some are just more equal" .
Flippers will get the high tier because the inflation of decks currently will grant them that they hit the ROI easily after selling a limited to 200 decks only Oath deck. Asking how many people will want that deck and then printing accordingly is the way to bring that deck to true fans if you realy would care.
I have no problem with creators doing what they want but please don't make excuses as if there is no other way.

If you need the exclusivity for your brand then it's nothing special - it's basic smoke and mirrors of marketing.
Same goes for adding changes and new tiers and stuff to keep the buzz alive. No thread is as active as a TGW campaign thread and you know that this equals steady dollars .

Alternative campaign trailer? Would have backed if that would be on the kickstarter.

[TheGentlemanWake]

I’ve been warned that this would happen. That no matter how honest or forthcoming I was people would misconstrue your actions and words to mean something different. I guess I just surprised me that the attacks became personal. Over the availability of a deck? It’s as if people forgot that I’m trying to grow and run a business. Somehow that has a negative connotation. As if profit is a bad word.

Yes I am a collector. As a collector I sometimes have to make difficult decisions. Sometimes selling part of a collection to afford something else is the reality of collecting. People think that because I post videos and give them access—like this thread—that they “know” me or whatever struggles I may have when the truth is one can never know. I’ve had people assume that I’m somehow wealthy because I have a nice living room. The reality Is that living room is in a relatively small apartment. And if you turn the camera 180 degrees you would see a relatively standard looking run of the mill place. Every one struggles to a degree. Like I’ve mentioned before I make videos because I love to make content but also because I’m working towards something. Lord knows YouTube doesn’t Pay the bills. In fact I labored fifteen hours to produce my last video and it got 600 views. My worst performing video of my last ten. Then people wonder where my posts are? Why I haven’t put out a video in three weeks.

And “sold off almost every deck in my collection” lol. Hardly. I also open my decks to auction style bidding. How is that flipping? I’m not setting ridiculous prices. In fact most of my auctions end up way under value. I sold a kings wild project Ltd tigers with the companion standard deck and display deck for less than it cost to buy it. I can no longer sell something at market value? It’s not like I’m taking the dynastinae decks in my private reserve and selling them at market value. I’ve never nor will I ever mark up a TGW deck in the aftermarket.

This is disappointing. I’m tempted to remove myself from this equation. But then I know I’d be letting my disappointment push me away from a forum with community members with legitimate comments and questions.

[PiazzaDelivery]

I’ve been warned that this would happen. That no matter how honest or forthcoming I was people would misconstrue your actions and words to mean something different. I guess I just surprised me that the attacks became personal. Over the availability of a deck? It’s as if people forgot that I’m trying to grow and run a business. Somehow that has a negative connotation. As if profit is a bad word.

Yes I am a collector. As a collector I sometimes have to make difficult decisions. Sometimes selling part of a collection to afford something else is the reality of collecting. People think that because I post videos and give them access—like this thread—that they “know” me or whatever struggles I may have when the truth is one can never know. I’ve had people assume that I’m somehow wealthy because I have a nice living room. The reality Is that living room is in a relatively small apartment. And if you turn the camera 180 degrees you would see a relatively standard looking run of the mill place. Every one struggles to a degree. Like I’ve mentioned before I make videos because I love to make content but also because I’m working towards something. Lord knows YouTube doesn’t Pay the bills. In fact I labored fifteen hours to produce my last video and it got 600 views. My worst performing video of my last ten. Then people wonder where my posts are? Why I haven’t put out a video in three weeks.

And “sold off almost every deck in my collection” lol. Hardly. I also open my decks to auction style bidding. How is that flipping? I’m not setting ridiculous prices. In fact most of my auctions end up way under value. I sold a kings wild project Ltd tigers with the companion standard deck and display deck for less than it cost to buy it. I can no longer sell something at market value? It’s not like I’m taking the dynastinae decks in my private reserve and selling them at market value. I’ve never nor will I ever mark up a TGW deck in the aftermarket.

This is disappointing. I’m tempted to remove myself from this equation. But then I know I’d be letting my disappointment push me away from a forum with community members with legitimate comments and questions.

You do not have to explain yourself whatsoever. Don't let the trolls get to you. Like you said, they assume way too much from far too little and make sweeping claims without any evidence to back them up. I can't speak for anyone else on UC, but posts like the ones you're referring to are usually very easy for me to ridicule and dismiss, specifically because they allege things their authors can't possibly know. You can either point out their logical inadequacy or ignore the noise and spend your time elsewhere.

I vote the latter.

[philmyer92]

I think it's a little harsh to criticize the campaign for only printing 200 of a deck like this, please correct me if i'm wrong but this Prism edition is printed in a very different way than the large print runs at USPCC or Cartamundi. I don't think it's just as simple as pressing "print more". I'm sure there is also some risk involved with trying new things like this but that risk is much lower when printing 200 vs 2000. Does the printer Lotrek use even have the capacity of printing many more in a reasonable time frame? We've not even seen what's involved with the tuck case yet have we? I'm sure Lotrek could spend his year printing 2000 of 1 "crazy" design and sell them all and make more money than if he had spent his year designing and printing 200-400 of 6 different designs.

As for how those 200 are handled, i guess there is no right solution to please everybody. But Kickstarter as a platform has always worked with the model of the more you back the greater the reward, with the most exclusive items reserved for the top tiers.

I think Omar has approached this campaign in a refreshingly open and honest way and he has does something that i wish more creators would do by this forum as a platform to refine ideas. Take the fact this edition is no longer in a bottle as an example of that. Looking at some of the non constructive negativity he has received, it doesn't make me surprised that more and more creators and disappearing from here.

[Bradius]

Well, you know this is an open forum and some folks come here and post whatever is in their mind, and sometimes it is not a great place. You can't make everyone happy TGW, so don't even try. I appreciate your efforts to help make modern collectible playing cards more mainstream. If anyone here thinks that TGW is pocketing $100k+ from this campaign.. . There are a lot of mouths to feed in a campaign like this, not the least is the mailman. I do get some folks also have to feed the customs official as well. I imagine there are few getting rich in playing cards. Maybe Jackson, but then he is working his butt off cranking out decks and so much more that is never seen building his business. If TGW can get amazing rich in this, more power to him. If you purchase cards to flip, good luck. I doubt many playing card flippers get rich either. Oh, speaking of flipping, I do have an extra gilded Robin Hood deck for $200...

[bdawg923]

Whoever doesn't like that the deck is limited to both premium tiers, feel free to go back another project. There's no point of personally attacking the creator. It just makes you look like a pouty child. Grow up people. Smh

[Timmargh]

"I want this deck but it's too limited/expensive so I'm going to criticise you and your campaign."

Grow up.

[rousselle]

Moderator hat on:

Please, please feel free to discuss the relative merits or problems with regard to exclusivity and how project creators price their work.

Please do NOT attack each other.

MagikFingerz (Tom) has already asked you to play nice, and he has already had to issue one warning.

It's been quite a while since we've had to give anyone a time-out for bad behavior. Please, let's keep it that way.

Moderator hat off.

Personal opinion hat on:

Omar and Lotrek, you both have been on the forums long enough to know that every once in a while, conversations here get heated. Please don't let the occasional trolling get you down. I hope you'll remember that most of the comments here are constructive, and all that any of us want is to add good and great decks to our collections. Lotrek has come under fire here from time to time, and yet, his biggest fans are also here, and his engagement here has only strengthened his brand over time, it seems to me.

Like Bradius above, I have some serious thinking to do here. I've never regretted the occasional hundred-dollar (plus) Lotrek deck, but that doesn't mean I have enough cash lying around to invest four to five hundred bucks on one project. I'm sure other backers are similarly weighing these considerations. As a businessman myself, I can hardly begrudge you trying to build a brand based upon quality instead of quantity. Both approaches have their merit. I'll have to decide how that works with regard to my current cash flow and the state of my collector's OCD, but in the meantime, I wish you all the success in the world for this campaign, and I encourage you to remember that your campaign is already stronger because of your constructive relationship with the feedback you've received on this project earlier.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Amen brother!

Moderator hat on:

Please, please feel free to discuss the relative merits or problems with regard to exclusivity and how project creators price their work.

Please do NOT attack each other.

MagikFingerz (Tom) has already asked you to play nice, and he has already had to issue one warning.

It's been quite a while since we've had to give anyone a time-out for bad behavior. Please, let's keep it that way.

Moderator hat off.

Personal opinion hat on:

Omar and Lotrek, you both have been on the forums long enough to know that every once in a while, conversations here get heated. Please don't let the occasional trolling get you down. I hope you'll remember that most of the comments here are constructive, and all that any of us want is to add good and great decks to our collections. Lotrek has come under fire here from time to time, and yet, his biggest fans are also here, and his engagement here has only strengthened his brand over time, it seems to me.

Like Bradius above, I have some serious thinking to do here. I've never regretted the occasional hundred-dollar (plus) Lotrek deck, but that doesn't mean I have enough cash lying around to invest four to five hundred bucks on one project. I'm sure other backers are similarly weighing these considerations. As a businessman myself, I can hardly begrudge you trying to build a brand based upon quality instead of quantity. Both approaches have their merit. I'll have to decide how that works with regard to my current cash flow and the state of my collector's OCD, but in the meantime, I wish you all the success in the world for this campaign, and I encourage you to remember that your campaign is already stronger because of your constructive relationship with the feedback you've received on this project earlier.

[hsbc]

Take the fact this edition is no longer in a bottle as an example of that.

After seeing the picture of the cards it is absolutely crazy to me that these were first intended to all be stuck inside of a bottle

[TheGentlemanWake]

I appreciate all the support and advice. Thank you all.

Okay, I've been obviously mulling over the prism situation and although I cannot in good conscience change my mind on it what Lotrek and I have decided to do is to make the Dynastinae it's equal in terms of beauty. It will be as gorgeous -- just in a different way. The prism will maintain it's uniqueness with the holographic foil but many of the traits of the two decks will be shared.

In an effort to appease the most backers I can I will open the following tiers on Monday Nov. 23rd at Noon Eastern:

1. The Ultimate Tempest 5-Deck Set: 1 Ocean, 1 Dusk, 1 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae (Limited to 200) $187
2. The Ultimate Tempest HALF BRICK PLUS: 2 Ocean, 2 Dusk, 2 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae (Limited to 200) $224
3. The Ultimate Tempest Brick Plus: 4 Ocean, 4 Dusk, 4 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae (Limited to 177) $290
4. The Complete Tempest PREMIUM Tier LITE: 4 Ocean, 4 Dusk, 4 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae, 1 Prism (limited to 98) $415

I should have images of the Tuck Boxes and the Dynastinae Soon.

[hsbc]

Hey Omar and Lotrek, I feel like I'm responsible for a decent amount of the criticism here and I just want to say I really, really appreciate y'all being so open and transparent on here

In fact I labored fifteen hours to produce my last video and it got 600 views. My worst performing video of my last ten. Then people wonder where my posts are? Why I haven’t put out a video in three weeks.

That's sad to hear - I just went and watched it and your editing, lighting, graphics work are all great as usual (for real, I was a film student for a few years) I know you're infinitely more familiar with what you do than I am, but what's the correlation between how popular a deck is and how many views that deck's review gets you? Your work seriously has no competition

[TheGentlemanWake]

Hey Omar and Lotrek, I feel like I'm responsible for a decent amount of the criticism here and I just want to say I really, really appreciate y'all being so open and transparent on here

In fact I labored fifteen hours to produce my last video and it got 600 views. My worst performing video of my last ten. Then people wonder where my posts are? Why I haven’t put out a video in three weeks.

That's sad to hear - I just went and watched it and your editing, lighting, graphics work are all great as usual (for real, I was a film student for a few years) I know you're infinitely more familiar with what you do than I am, but what's the correlation between how popular a deck is and how many views that deck's review gets you? Your work seriously has no competition

It's odd, sometimes the video does really well based on the popularity... the Shield deck being a highly popular campaign right now seemed like it would do well. Theory 11 decks do well. As do hype decks. But who wants to review the same kind of decks over and over? Honestly the YT algorithm is pretty much incomprehensible to me despite somehow amassing 11k subs over 3 years. Maybe there just isn't as big an audience. My best performing videos by far are my top tens. May see a lot more of those come 2022.

[Meta Collector]

Now, what makes an item "expensive"? In my opinion two things:
1) Greed, indeed: "Hmm, I'm famous with lotsa fans so I'll buy 50000 t-shirts from Bangladesh for $0,50 each, I'll print "Lotrek The Great" on them and will sell them for $15 each. Hehe, the suckers will buy them! After that I'll do the same with baseball hats".
2) Cost and effort. Whether it has to do with expensive materials, numerous working hours, original inventions which involve experiments that take serious money to the trash bin or doing again and again the same thing until you feel it's perfect. There is a reason why a dinner at Ferran Andria's restaurant costed $400 per person. I wish we could go there with Melina when it was open but we couldn't afford it. This doesn't make Andria a greedy person. (Btw the restaurant closed because apparently the prices weren't high enough to cover the costs...)

I totally agree with both points and I think your decks are well worth their price points. The innovation you put into producing your decks is simply unmatched. But just curious, was point #1 meant to be a dig at one of your fellow card designers?

[MagikFingerz]

I appreciate all the support and advice. Thank you all.

Okay, I've been obviously mulling over the prism situation and although I cannot in good conscience change my mind on it what Lotrek and I have decided to do is to make the Dynastinae it's equal in terms of beauty. It will be as gorgeous -- just in a different way. The prism will maintain it's uniqueness with the holographic foil but many of the traits of the two decks will be shared.

In an effort to appease the most backers I can I will open the following tiers on Monday Nov. 23rd at Noon Eastern:

1. The Ultimate Tempest 5-Deck Set: 1 Ocean, 1 Dusk, 1 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae (Limited to 200) $187
2. The Ultimate Tempest HALF BRICK PLUS: 2 Ocean, 2 Dusk, 2 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae (Limited to 200) $224
3. The Ultimate Tempest Brick Plus: 4 Ocean, 4 Dusk, 4 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae (Limited to 177) $290
4. The Complete Tempest PREMIUM Tier LITE: 4 Ocean, 4 Dusk, 4 Midnight, 1 Treasured, 1 Dynastinae, 1 Prism (limited to 98) $415

I should have images of the Tuck Boxes and the Dynastinae Soon.

Any way to get the Dynastinae without getting the Treasured edition? I'm just not a fan of gilded decks, so I tend to avoid them.

No worries if not