The Parlour Playing Cards (TGW)

[Stockholm17]

Sadly, if you invested half the energy into actual resolution that you've invested abusing me in KS comments sections and UC forums and labelling me a "troll" for simply wanting my pledge after 15 months, this problem wouldn't exist today.

I invest my energy how I desire, it is my time and in this case I invested it to defend myself from you.
All this for one deck? yes, it does not matter if it is a deck or a brick, it is about manners.

Here is the whole conversation on from the beginning in chronological order.

https://www.stockholm17.com/g
Pass: greg

If you have shipping issues, learn to address them via email and follow up via email, do not rage out on the comment section and insult a project creator.
That's all for me.

Talk to 52W and plan the reshipping with them. PERIOD!

[Thedissident001]

Having given up long ago receiving this deck, my primary motivation became alerting prospective future backers of your projects of what they will face if things go wrong or there are problems with receiving their pledges.

You alone have achieved this goal for me - Your lack of professionalism speaks volumes for itself. All the very best!

[bdawg923]

Not sure what Lorenzo could possibly do besides what he has been doing. Maybe hand deliver the deck to Australia?

[Decknowledgy]

screenshot-www.stockholm17.com-2020.07.08-14_44_21.png (94.88 KiB) Viewed 7530 times

Umm, NO.
Bear in mind that this is the 2nd message you've commented on KS, the first one being the one that you ALREADY stated that you will file a fraudulent report.

This reminds me of VXD's copyright accusation toward KWP right off the bat.

Records aren't looking too good for you, mate. The way you approach this issue is threat after threat and accusing the creator for not fulfilling because of all the obstacles that happened in between, aka 52Wonders, customs, or border blocks. Personally, I've complained to a particular company before for being charged absurd amount for custom taxes, however, if that is the policy and regulations of that country, I understand that I should not have accused the company for listing the price correctly. From all the records it seems that you have been complaining about this issue DURING the period of COVID-19 and undermining the possibilities of lockdowns. 5 months ago I can tell you that the countries in the Pacific region have already started border control to contain the virus situation. If it's the Australian government's policy to block int'l postal services, you either complain to them or just wait. If you say no tracking is provided, it's the fulfillment center's responsibility i.e. 52Wonders. In no way, reshipped or not (as Stockholm17 has clearly reshipped for you), Stockholm17 is not responsible for the failure of your package not being delivered.

Your whole logical argument just doesn't add up to who, where, and how your parcel is logistically handled, (Karen).

[Harvonsgard]

(Karen).

You did not, did you?

As for the matter of this dispute. I know Lorenzo as nothing but eager to help and very responsive. I heard the same from almost everybody I know in the card community. It's hard to imagine someone pissing off Lorenzo that much, that he replied how he replied .

[aznh]

Lorenzo, I'm not sure why you would think Thedissident001 should have to contact your fulfillment centre

You could easily tell 52W to re-send out his decks and it's done. The client should NEVER have to deal with any of creators fulfillment centres for obvious reasons

Not sure what Lorenzo could possibly do besides what he has been doing. Maybe hand deliver the deck to Australia?

No, maybe Greg actually just wants his products delivered without the back & forth. I'm sure you would feel the same after 15+ months. Don't see why Lorenzo cannot just refund his pledge amount and let Greg purchase them on the aftermarket.

Not really seeing anything here other then Greg looking for what he paid for. For ANYONE to have to make multiple correspondence doesn't make sense.

What are we talk about here, $30, $50, $80? Not thousands of dollars

and lastly if Lorenzo uses tracking, I don't see Lorenzo claiming the decks were delivered. So where is Greg wrong here?

[Decknowledgy]

Lorenzo, I'm not sure why you would think Thedissident001 should have to contact your fulfillment centre

You could easily tell 52W to re-send out his decks and it's done. The client should NEVER have to deal with any of creators fulfillment centres for obvious reasons

Check the records Lorenzo provided again. He did contact, check the tracking, and reship to 52Wonders.

[bdawg923]

Lorenzo, I'm not sure why you would think Thedissident001 should have to contact your fulfillment centre

You could easily tell 52W to re-send out his decks and it's done. The client should NEVER have to deal with any of creators fulfillment centres for obvious reasons

Not sure what Lorenzo could possibly do besides what he has been doing. Maybe hand deliver the deck to Australia?

No, maybe Greg actually just wants his products delivered without the back & forth. I'm sure you would feel the same after 15+ months. Don't see why Lorenzo cannot just refund his pledge amount and let Greg purchase them on the aftermarket.

Not really seeing anything here other then Greg looking for what he paid for. For ANYONE to have to make multiple correspondence doesn't make sense.

What are we talk about here, $30, $50, $80? Not thousands of dollars

and lastly if Lorenzo uses tracking, I don't see Lorenzo claiming the decks were delivered. So where is Greg wrong here?

So Lorenzo shipped out two decks, and he should also provide a refund? Be out 2 decks plus the cost of the deck. Lorenzo doesn't control the postal service. In my opinion he did everything he could. Plus he has receipts of the emails 52wonders sent to Greg which Greg doesn't even address. Maybe they're going to his spam and he refuses to check? No idea. But if the company is reaching out to him multiple times and he still rather go to the Kickstarter comments or forums here to say he's being defrauded, well then that's not in good faith anymore.

[EvilDuncan]

I've gone back and forth on this a bit. I do see Greg's side, and can easily understand how this is very a frustrating process for him. I also understand where Lorenzo is coming from. Nobody likes being called a thief.

I had a similar problem recently where I realized I hadn't received my decks from Steve Minty's Ascension campaign. I emailed him (admittedly I had to follow up with him several times, which I understand, dude's busy), but he eventually called and talked to GW to ship me my rewards and all was good. I think a big problem here is that all of this could have been done in private communications instead of a Kickstarter comment section. All of the name-calling and accusations seemed unnecessary.

[Ice_Panda]

Having given up long ago receiving this deck, my primary motivation became alerting prospective future backers of your projects of what they will face if things go wrong or there are problems with receiving their pledges.

You alone have achieved this goal for me - Your lack of professionalism speaks volumes for itself. All the very best!

pretty sure this is the definition of trolling...

[Harvonsgard]

I've gone back and forth on this a bit. I do see Greg's side, and can easily understand how this is very a frustrating process for him. I also understand where Lorenzo is coming from. Nobody likes being called a thief.

I had a similar problem recently where I realized I hadn't received my decks from Steve Minty's Ascension campaign. I emailed him (admittedly I had to follow up with him several times, which I understand, dude's busy), but he eventually called and talked to GW to ship me my rewards and all was good. I think a big problem here is that all of this could have been done in private communications instead of a Kickstarter comment section. All of the name-calling and accusations seemed unnecessary.

+1

[riutshoxie]

Just for the record about how Lorenzo deals with problems / friendly [Greg;)} requests:

I wanted to back the Keymaster Tarot KS but could'nt use the kickstarter pledge because i don't own a CC. I messaged him about it and he was friendly, patient and very helpful from the getgo. He reserved a copy for me, for which I wanted to pay immediately via Paypal, because I believe that is the right thing to do. He told me to wait until he actually has the leftover decks / product, simply to avoid issues or getting confused down the line.

His patreons located in the EU have to pay higher taxes / vat to Patreon and Lorenzo took hours of work on himself to try to make up for something he wasn't even at fault. He gave a huge discount to his shop for everybody involved in the higher tax payments, which he didn't need to.

Among the creators I dealt with in the past there was never any issue that could'nt get resolved or was handled in an inappropriate way.

[Gareth]

From all the records it seems that you have been complaining about this issue DURING the period of COVID-19 and undermining the possibilities of lockdowns. 5 months ago I can tell you that the countries in the Pacific region have already started border control to contain the virus situation. If it's the Australian government's policy to block int'l postal services, you either complain to them or just wait. If you say no tracking is provided, it's the fulfillment center's responsibility i.e. 52Wonders. In no way, reshipped or not (as Stockholm17 has clearly reshipped for you), Stockholm17 is not responsible for the failure of your package not being delivered.

Your whole logical argument just doesn't add up to who, where, and how your parcel is logistically handled, (Karen).

I completely disagree with most of this.

1. This started well before COVID19 could be used as an excuse. 5 months ago is early February, and they are referring to shipping in December 2019 - long (relatively) before shipping issues began.
2. Australian government has not blocked international postal services. I have still received quite a few international items to AU during this period including last week 3 from US and 2 from UK. Also recently receiving UC#7 from Montenzi (arguably international, although NZ are neighbours). Greg (and portcullis) also reported in the other thread that he's received his Crypt deck from Lotrek. If 52W are saying that they can't post to Australia, where is this issue coming from?
3. Greg's 'contract' (such as it is with an international Kickstarter) for purchase and delivery of these cards is with TGW/S17, not with any agent they may have employed. As far as we know, Greg backed this project before 52 Wonders was selected. As such it is the TGW/S17's responsibility to deliver as they promised.
4. The 'Karen' reference diminishes you.

What we can tell is that both sides are frustrated, at least because of the ramping up of rhetoric of each other. My conclusions

• Greg probably wound up his language to " you stole my $$ " too quickly. This resulted in S17's language also escalating. Neither side appears to be giving way in any direction.
• A package was sent to Greg, and possibly ended up lost/unrecoverable with Australian Customs - in any case, it has not been received.
• S17 claims he supplied another deck to 52W. There appears no statement that this was actually shipped to Greg.

When delivery of packages regularly take 6-8 weeks to arrive, and the usual message when you try to chase them up is "give it a few weeks", it's quite understandable that these things drag out for significant periods. (In the stream of messages posted, it appears that Greg waits about 2 months after S17 says he's posted the deck, to see if it arrives before the 'discussion' continues).

Lastly, I have dealt with Greg on a number of occasions (mainly via eBay), and have never had any issue in any of our transactions - and would report he always appeared to be very easy to deal with.

[Stockholm17]

-
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I reply to a couple of things:

Lorenzo, I'm not sure why you would think Thedissident001 should have to contact your fulfillment centre.
Because 52W offered customer service and we made it clear in this update on kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/th ... ts/2706848
CASE 1 and/or CASE 2. That was pretty clear, and that is the channel to solve the issue. Not insulting me on the KS page.

You could easily tell 52W to re-send out his decks and it's done.
In fact I did, but since the info was coming from outside and not tracked in 52W system I guess it was a miss? I do not know.


The client should NEVER have to deal with any of creators fulfilment centres for obvious reasons.
Why not? 52W have customer service in place for Parlour, and we paid for it. They can follow all the packages' tracking numbers and are in direct contact with the carrier. GW does not have customer service in this case, so I have to be the intermediary.

maybe Greg actually just wants his products delivered without the back & forth.
Exactly, so just write to the provided email address instead of raging out like a child on the comment section on Parlour campaign page.


I'm sure you would feel the same after 15+ months.
He started the drama 4 weeks after, not 15+ months.

Don't see why Lorenzo cannot just refund his pledge amount and let Greg purchase them on the aftermarket.
2 reasons:
He never asked for a refund at all (as far as I know).
I'd shut him down directly with an immediate refund if I had access to the refund button, but the account belongs to TGW and I have limited access as collaborator. I can't even read KS emails related to the project.


What are we talk about here, $30, $50, $80? Not thousands of dollars
It does not matter, it is about manners. It could be $1 issue. I do not take tons of sh*t because people cannot behave.


and lastly if Lorenzo uses tracking, I don't see Lorenzo claiming the decks were delivered.
The parcel is marked as "pending" at the Australian postal service, I guess blocked by the customs, or lost between Germany and Australia.
Honestly I do not know what happened to that parcel and that's 52W job to find out, in fact we paid for the service.

So where is Greg wrong here?
Greg is not wrong, he wants his deck. He will get it if he follows the instructions I provided multiple times.


This issue is not really about a late delivery or a lost parcel, during the years I reshipped a lot of replacements and refunded a lot of backers.
Everybody knows - except Greg - that I follow up immediately.

All this drama is about his behaviour that I do not accept as company, as professional, as person.

[Gareth]

OK, I think it's getting clearer from your post;

The parcel is marked as "pending" at the Australian postal service, I guess blocked by the customs, or lost between Germany and Australia.
Honestly I do not know what happened to that parcel and that's 52W job to find out, in fact we paid for the service.

To be clear, this is the status where AusPost have been notified a package is going to be placed in their custody, but they haven't actually received it yet. Most likely this is arranged by 52W or perhaps a further shipping organisation, and just means they know they were meant to receive it and haven't got it [yet]. (Whether that means it was stuck in customs, eaten by the loch ness monster, or never sent, it is impossible to tell)

I'd shut him down directly with an immediate refund if I had access to the refund button, but the account belongs to TGW and I have limited access as collaborator.

In this case, why are we here? Why is this conversation between Greg and you, and not TGW?

Greg is not wrong, he wants his deck. He will get it if he follows the instructions I provided multiple times.

So we're back to you in one corner saying talk to 52W. Greg, diametrically opposed, asking when you/TGW are going to fix this. Neither budging, both complaining about the other.

Someone, sooner or later, is going to have to man up and either fix this [or drop it]....

[phantom1412]

I think DHL or Fedex still deliver to many countries during covid that my post offices do not deliver.

[aznh]

The client should NEVER have to deal with any of creators fulfilment centres for obvious reasons.
Why not? 52W have customer service in place for Parlour, and we paid for it. They can follow all the packages' tracking numbers and are in direct contact with the carrier. GW does not have customer service in this case, so I have to be the intermediary.

Why not?

Lorenzo, you and/or TWG decided to use 52W and pay for it (their customer service) as you claim. No one else.

To announce that 52W has customer service in place for these types of situations and not GW is laughable at best. Everyone knows that the company that ships is the only one that can make a claim to the post office. GW would do the same thing if a package was "stuck" in transit.

And you come here and also say GW doesn't offer customer service is understatement to say the least. What GW and I sure 52W doesn't allow is random customers, campaign pledgers or the general public to call into their office/warehouse and request decks to be re-shipped because the creator or collaborator of the campaign said it was ok.

What are we talk about here, $30, $50, $80? Not thousands of dollars
It does not matter, it is about manners. It could be $1 issue. I do not take tons of sh*t because people cannot behave.

You're right, it's not about the money. I read it was only $27 or something like that. So if it's not about the money and you don't have access to the refund button on your end, contact TWG and get it done regardless if Greg hasn't asked for one. That's customer service and saying "I'm sorry this happened to you" is better then calling all this "drama".

Not everyone in the playing card world is here to screw you or TWG, but if TWG is the one holding things up because he can't swallow a $27 refund that's pretty sad.

The man wants what he paid for and if you have to let this package sit for months before he gets his 2/3 decks what's the issue with refunding even if he didn't ask. I'm sure all this would've been avoided in the first place had that happened knowing something went wrong with the transit.

Greg is not wrong, he wants his deck. He will get it if he follows the instructions I provided multiple times.

So we're back to you in one corner saying talk to 52W. Greg, diametrically opposed, asking when you/TGW are going to fix this. Neither budging, both complaining about the other.

+1. Thank you Gareth

[Bradius]

This discussion is going nowhere, and I couldn't find it less interesting.

If a Kickstarter project mails you your product with tracking, that is essentially the end of it. I have more than a few creators that haven't even done that. I will save my wrath for them. If they do send out a second shipment with tracking, geeze what more do you want them to do? Give you a full refund? Okay, maybe ask nicely not expecting anything. if you get it, great. If not shut up. They shipped you your reward twice.

How many interactions and shipments have I received directly/indirectly from Lorenzo? Tons. How many issues have I had? I can't think of any, but probably some. How many times has Lorenzo gone out of his way to provide extra effort? Quite a few. I know he has shipped collectors decks, like a Gemini Experimental, out of his personal stock.

So, back to the discussion. I have read Thedissident001's issue. Many times actually. Okay, duly noted. Time to move on! Please.

[aznh]

Sure

whatever you say squarely nut

time to move on

[Cardians]

Hey, I don't mind reading both sides of the story. It' s always interesting to see where certain projects go. I know the feelings of many failed campaigns too.

Good luck to everyone and hope it gets sorted out.
Cheers,

[theCapraAegagrus]

Obviously we should burn Lorenzo at the stake for this.

[brownsl]

I will say the one time I ordered from 52W it was not a particularly good experience. I ordered a couple of decks from them, the package got to the US and then completely disappeared and I never received it after a couple of months of waiting. Thanks USPS! After quite a bit of unpleasant back and forth, they did give me my refund. They are only the second person/company that I will not purchase from anymore. The other being anyone selling on Ebay located in Russia!

[Magic Tapp]

Crikey - I have spent some time going through the posts and am a bit flabbergasted about the whole situation and the things that were said. Here is my two cents on this.

On the top of the issues stemming from the pandemic, it appears to me that the additional complication in this particular instance is that the project was launched by TGW and Lorenzo's status as a collaborator meant that his involvement was limited compared to the projects that he launched himself.

While I fully understand Greg's desire to get the deck that he paid for, I am not certain that the situation warranted the name-calling that followed.

My personal experience of dealing with Lorenzo is nothing but overwhelmingly positive - I have had a few issues with my packages over the last few years and, when asked directly and politely, was always going out of his way to get the problem sorted.

Quite frankly, if the problem is indeed in the customs indefinitely keeping/blocking the package, there is not really much that anyone (other than the recipient) can do about it (as it is clearly beyond the project creator's control). Yes, one can ask for a replacement package but, given, when that someone has called the project creator a thief and a liar, I would not hold my breath on that happening.

[MagikFingerz]

Quite frankly, if the problem is indeed in the customs indefinitely keeping/blocking the package, there is not really much that anyone (other than the recipient) can do about it (as it is clearly beyond the project creator's control). Yes, one can ask for a replacement package but, given, when that someone has called the project creator a thief and a liar, I would not hold my breath on that happening.

Also, there's no reason to believe that sending another package won't just produce the same result. If they're holding one package indefinitely (for whatever reason), why wouldn't they hold the next identical one as well?

[Thedissident001]

Appreciate everyone’s input on this (from both ‘sides’ of the discussion).

I’ve always valued UC as a place to share experiences good, bad and everything in between about playing cards and the projects we back.

I will be the first to acknowledge that I erred in suggesting S17/Requiem/TGW/Whoever deliberately deprived me of my pledge or set out to steal from me. They all have delivered on projects well enough in the past to make that a silly assertion. Having tried to reach out privately multiple times without any results and after 15 months there frankly wasn’t much left that wasn’t worth trying.

I suppose my lessons from this project were -

1. Even well regarded creators are capable of failing in their execution, customer service and/or delivery. Everyone has “off” days (or projects) and playing cards are no exception.
2. Look carefully at the fulfillment company they plan to use (assuming it is disclosed before the project closes). It can make a HUGE difference.
3. Avoid projects that are collaborations between different creators. If/when things go wrong, you will find they immediately start pointing frantically at each other instead of trying to fix things themselves.

Anyone still convinced I’ve been unreasonable merely trying to receive my pledge should review the comments thread on the KS project - you will discover that my experience is not unique and that many other backers are still trying to get their rewards after all this time.

[laitostarr777]

Received mine since 4 January 2020. Should have posted photos of the cards here since then, but I am more keep into posting photos in my Instagram, as that social media platform is mostly used to post photos (it's obvious).

Here are some of my good shots of my Parlour Playing Cards. Also *coughs* forgive me for my sin of opening a VERY LIMITED EXCLUSIVE Parlour Dynastinae. I did my best to retain the cellophane, so the opened decks won't go naked.

Four colors

Four versions with coins

The Ace of Spades

The custom seal on the bottom

Jokers with Dynastinae

Dynastinae with coin

The court cards of Parlour playing cards

Gaff, mini deck, card guard, and coins

[supernova]

Received mine since 4 January 2020. Should have posted photos of the cards here since then, but I am more keep into posting photos in my Instagram, as that social media platform is mostly used to post photos (it's obvious).

Here are some of my good shots of my Parlour Playing Cards. Also *coughs* forgive me for my sin of opening a VERY LIMITED EXCLUSIVE Parlour Dynastinae. I did my best to retain the cellophane, so the opened decks won't go naked.

Love the pics of the gilded decks I don’t think I’ll open mine though...

[Harvonsgard]

Especially the picture with the Dynastinæ and coin - beautiful .

[laitostarr777]

Love the pics of the gilded decks I don’t think I’ll open mine though...

I know right! The gilding is just so beautiful! No worries if you don't open yours, it's fine. At least you have seen it from someone who had opened it (in this case, myself).
If at that time, I have a GREAT amount of money to spare, I could get an extra copy for it, so at least one to remain Mint Condition. But, I think, if you opened it, but barely even touched it, it should be fine. It's a matter of taking care of what you have acquired.

[Bradius]

I thought I would point out that these are still for sale on Lorenzo's website, including seven remaining brick sets for $199. If you are a S17 patron with your awesome 20% discount, those brick sets go down to $160....just say'n.