Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

[aznh]

makes me happy I never backed their overpriced diffractor decks.

Trust me you're not missing anything special.

The technology is neat but the overall quality of the card stock and how they were cut is laughable if their seeking casino use More like a Svengali deck if you know the ins & outs of that deck.

[BaconWise]

I agree that the comparison doesn't hold up regarding the sometimes-invisible VXD foil vs. the always-there foil Jackson is using.

Also, what a bizarre place to announce legal action. I can understand the effort put in to create a patent and its successful application in your previous decks. However, your very public announcement lacks tact or maturity. There is room for both projects to exist in our community and they are vastly different applications, in my opinion. Not to mention, your target audience is typically those who are looking for a casino deck with standard design features, aside from the holo foil. KWP decks are fully-custom and this particular project is more focused on collectors.

I don't have any legal knowledge, so I would say to let the courts decide how to proceed. That being said, I hope you are prepared to apologize to Jackson just as publicly as you have threatened him.

[JacksonRobinson]

The critical claim, which the production of these playing cards will infringe:

I am fully aware of your patent and did in no way infringe on your patent. I really like and enjoy what you have been able to create with the diffractor line. The main difference, which is also the crux of your patent is that you use clear holographic foil stamped on the top of the card. Because you use clear holo foil it is only visible at certain viewing angles.

The foil I use is not clear and is not hot stamped on the top of the design. We laminate the entire card with opaque foil, just like we did with the Nutcracker and VHS decks. We then print ink on top of the foil. This is the same process as many other manufactures do with cold foil. Both Lorenzo and I did the same process with Cardimundi. I love the Refractor decks and think they are awesome, but we steered clear of your patent. This is one deck in a line of many that use the same process. I'm happy to chat with you about the process if you have any questions.

[Daisho]

This thread has taught me so many, many things:

The subjectivity of art. The symbiotic relationship of cardists and collectors. A brief history of the UC. How to cheat with Texas Palmetto decks. The advantages and disadvantages of paper and plastic playing cards. The theory of functionality vs. design. The joy of hope and the agony of loss. Even the width of a human hair. And now we can add good P.R. vs bad P.R.

I petition it become require reading not just for all new UC members, but all major universities as well.

[Decknowledgy]

VXD can officially say a big fat goodbye to the playing card world taunting other creators like this.
First Andrew and now Felipe; this company is f*#ked by their very own hands.

[Fes]

Over react much? This cracks me up. These cats are going to have to pay lawyers and court fees over a tantrum of someone else made a shiny looking better than theirs and hitting a jealousy button. Thirty thousand dollars blah blah high horse and soap box BS.

Hey VXD this deck and yours, yea these things don't even look similar. If you're all pouts and whines over this just hire a designer who's a bit more advanced from the occasional dollar sign and recolored courts, ditch the dumb metal tuck and actually move some product. Three Years! Thirty thousand dollars! hahahaha, you slay me. Wonder how protective you are over that sofa. I can see it now. "One thousand five hundred dollars and a strained back, don't you dare sit on a red sofa too! No mine's not leather but so what, it's red damnit!"

Thanks for the hilarious reaction. I call into question your entire character, but not your ability to make people laugh.

[supernova]

The critical claim, which the production of these playing cards will infringe:

I am fully aware of your patent and did in no way infringe on your patent. I really like and enjoy what you have been able to create with the diffractor line. The main difference, which is also the crux of your patent is that you use clear holographic foil stamped on the top of the card. Because you use clear holo foil it is only visible at certain viewing angles.

The foil I use is not clear and is not hot stamped on the top of the design. We laminate the entire card with opaque foil, just like we did with the Nutcracker and VHS decks. We then print ink on top of the foil. This is the same process as many other manufactures do with cold foil. Both Lorenzo and I did the same process with Cardimundi. I love the Refractor decks and think they are awesome, but we steered clear of your patent. This is one deck in a line of many that use the same process. I'm happy to chat with you about the process if you have any questions.

Legal challenge aside, this post is very educational in how the foils are attached and the cards are printed!

[juxtaposed]

VXD can officially say a big fat goodbye to the playing card world taunting other creators like this.
First Andrew and now Felipe; this company is f*#ked by their very own hands.

if i remember correctly he still have a collaboration deck with lotrek in 2021.

[VXD]

JACKSON - Glad to get your response. Obviously as you aware, we reached out to you via PM in April regarding Legal Tender in anticipation of the holographics elements, but got no response from you. So it's good to get a response here. We take on board your comments regarding the construction. As you may be aware we have also reached out to other designers and producers to date, when it appears our patent could be infringed. We'll now just wait to see the deck in person to confirm your reply. The attached pic gives real cause to believe that elements of transparent holographics are being used.

Here are the real & key facts of this matter:

1) We are LEGALLY OBLIGED to make other playing card designers aware of our patent. In defence of a granted patent the owner has to show that they took all steps to make everyone aware of the existence of the patent.

2) The patent covers TRANSPARENT HOLOGRAPHICS on playing cards (not all holographics). It is totally irrelevant by what production method the transparent holographics may come to find themselves on the playing cards.

3) If a patent is infringed, it is not about getting a claim or suit filed before any production starts. That is purely down to whoever is producing and intends to eventually sell the product, whether they go ahead or not with production. It's their decision and their risk. A patent infringement claim can be brought at any time and would claim against all sales within the jurisdiction (in our case the US) + damages + legal costs etc.

4) As noted and clear in the title too, this patent (US Patent 8,777,225) covers the US only. PRODUCTION or SALES within the US. Nowhere else.

We have fulfilled our legal obligation now....the rest is not important. The usual suspect haters can continue to hate on. This will be our last post on this matter and this thread.

[Harvonsgard]

...the rest is not important. The usual suspect haters can continue to hate on.

Welp, I wonder who has set the tone for this.

[JacksonRobinson]

JACKSON - Glad to get your response. Obviously as you aware, we reached out to you via PM in April regarding Legal Tender in anticipation of the holographics elements, but got no response from you. So it's good to get a response here. We take on board your comments regarding the construction. As you may be aware we have also reached out to other designers and producers to date, when it appears our patent could be infringed. We'll now just wait to see the deck in person to confirm your reply. The attached pic gives real cause to believe that elements of transparent holographics are being used.

Here are the real & key facts of this matter:

1) We are LEGALLY OBLIGED to make other playing card designers aware of our patent. In defence of a granted patent the owner has to show that they took all steps to make everyone aware of the existence of the patent.

2) The patent covers TRANSPARENT HOLOGRAPHICS on playing cards (not all holographics). It is totally irrelevant by what production method the transparent holographics may come to find themselves on the playing cards.

3) If a patent is infringed, it is not about getting a claim or suit filed before any production starts. That is purely down to whoever is producing and intends to eventually sell the product, whether they go ahead or not with production. It's their decision and their risk. A patent infringement claim can be brought at any time and would claim against all sales within the jurisdiction (in our case the US) + damages + legal costs etc.

4) As noted and clear in the title too, this patent (US Patent 8,777,225) covers the US only. PRODUCTION or SALES within the US. Nowhere else.

We have fulfilled our legal obligation now....the rest is not important. The usual suspect haters can continue to hate on. This will be our last post on this matter and this thread.

Sounds great, and I would be happy to send you a brick of Legal Tender when they come out as we in no way used clear holographic foil on our cards. We also used the same process/foil on VHS as well. Would you like me to send you a brick of those as well? I'm sorry I didn't reply to your PM. Which platform did you send your PM on as I just searched my emails and found nothing from VXD. I'm happy to discuss it further with you if you like, as I feel this forum is an inappropriate place to discuss something like this.

You can email me at jackson@kingswildproject.com

Here is a detailed video of VHS if you would like to take a look at them as well as the high res photos of the cards.

VHS Product Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y84osqJ2lgs&t

VHS Product Page with pics
https://kingswildproject.com/collection ... c-vhs-1982

[Outsider]

Here are the real & key facts of this matter

There is a salient fact that you left out, and that is that an internet message board is exactly the wrong place for a legal dispute. This entire incident makes you look like an unprofessional, childish asshole.

[JacksonRobinson]

Since we are all here, here is another delicious images of the Legal Tender cards. Take close look at how the Declaration of Independence can be seen in holofoil in the background of the spade cards.

[LasVegasCards]

Well now I know to never purchase the shit from VXD and will do everything in my power to make sure others don't as well.

[Decknowledgy]

In the world of science, this is considered an Edison move.

[Ice_Panda]

This should have been done offline and in private. (the above post is hilarious though)

[NativeTongue]

Ever wonder what it looks like when a company hits their own self destruct button? VXD just did exactly that.

[EvilDuncan]

Since we are all here, here is another delicious images of the Legal Tender cards. Take close look at how the Declaration of Independence can be seen in holofoil in the background of the spade cards.

Hot damn I'm gonna have to get more of these so I can open one!

[Harvonsgard]

Ted, stop re-igniting my hatred for Edison!

[BaconWise]

Sounds great, and I would be happy to send you a brick of Legal Tender when they come out as we in no way used clear holographic foil on our cards. We also used the same process/foil on VHS as well. Would you like me to send you a brick of those as well?

I mean, I would be happy to examine a brick of your new Legal Tender as well as a brick of your VHS, if you are looking for more eyes on the issue. Quite happy to do my part. I will PM you my address.

[Ice_Panda]

Sounds great, and I would be happy to send you a brick of Legal Tender when they come out as we in no way used clear holographic foil on our cards. We also used the same process/foil on VHS as well. Would you like me to send you a brick of those as well?

I mean, I would be happy to examine a brick of your new Legal Tender as well as a brick of your VHS, if you are looking for more eyes on the issue. Quite happy to do my part. I will PM you my address.

lol

[Harvonsgard]

Sounds great, and I would be happy to send you a brick of Legal Tender when they come out as we in no way used clear holographic foil on our cards. We also used the same process/foil on VHS as well. Would you like me to send you a brick of those as well?

I mean, I would be happy to examine a brick of your new Legal Tender as well as a brick of your VHS, if you are looking for more eyes on the issue. Quite happy to do my part. I will PM you my address.

Haha, great minds think alike. I thought exactly the same reading the answer. Stupid me is paying cash for KWP decks when all it takes is a false patent infrigement claim to get a brick

[rousselle]

If one reads through this thread, as well as a couple others, one will notice that there was a period of time that Jackson was less inclined to engage on this board and elsewhere because, well, because. And, one will also notice that Jackson returned and has fully engaged and has acted with a great deal of class as well as enthusiasm. He has taken some heat for past issues, and he has owned his mistakes with grace and integrity. This most recent part of the thread highlights that class and grace. The entire community is far richer because both Jackson and the members of the UC have acknowledged past issues, resolved them as best as possible, and moved on constructively.

I hold out hope that the partners at VXD will eventually find a better balance between defending their intellectual property and working collaboratively with the community of playing card designers and enthusiasts. When they find that better balance, the results will be a win-win for all involved. They will take their efforts to higher levels, they will enjoy success, and collectors will have more interesting decks to add to their collection. We will also all benefit when they become better at managing constructive criticism, and allowing non-constructive criticism to roll off their backs. (And, I realize that this last part is far easier said than done.)

I was a backer of the original Legal Tender KS project. I look forward to seeing the original vision of that project realized.

[sinjin7]

I'll start by seconding everything Rousselle said in the preceding post. Man, I’ve been away for a while and I missed this juicy legal controversy. If you’re not interested in legal matters, please skip this overly long post to the last paragraph. So much to unpack here, so let’s start with:

Did Jackson/EPCC violate VXD’s patent?

Patents cannot be over-broad, or they won’t be issued. For instance, I will never be granted a patent for building “any device that can capture a mouse”. Mouse traps have been around for ages already and “any device” is too broad in language, scope, and concept. Now if I build a mousetrap that has a unique mechanism to more efficiently capture a mouse, then I definitely can get a patent for that unique mechanism in my better mousetrap, but I can’t get a patent for any or all mousetraps, only those specifically utilizing my unique mechanism. I’m going to qualify what I’m going to say next since I haven’t seen VXD’s whole patent, just a snippet, but based upon that snippet and what I know of law in general, VXD cannot get a patent for all playing cards with holographic foil. Holographic foiling on playing cards have already been done before and that is too broad. VXD’s patent is much more narrow than that. What they have is a patent on a particular method of applying a specific type of holographic foil that can produce a particular type of effect. Just because someone puts holographic foiling on playing cards does not violate VXD’s patent, but if they use VXD’s narrow particular process of holographic foiling they call Diffraction technology, then VXD has a case. I haven’t seen Jackson’s deck in hand, so I can’t say whether he and EPCC are in actual violation of VXD’s intellectual property rights. Jackson seems confident EPCC’s foiling method is substantially different from VXDs, and VXD seems satisfied with that for now.

Is VXD legally obligated to make others aware of their patent?

No. VXD will not go to jail or pay a civil penalty or fine if they fail to make others aware of their patent. Now if they want to enforce their patent, then it behooves them to give notice of a potential infringement in order to have a successful defense of their patent in court, if it ever goes that far. There is a big difference between legal obligation and legal prudence. I’m sure VXD meant to say it is in their legal best interest to give notice (instead of using the term legally obligated), so we turn to the manner in which they put Jackson on notice. It shouldn’t be done on a public forum, but directly to the potential infringer. And it shouldn’t be done as belligerently as it was done here, VXD just comes off as overly litigious. I’m sure even VXD would agree with this, and to their credit, they claim they tried to contact Jackson directly. But they cannot justify their churlishness by claiming it had to be done under some legal obligation. They should also put EPCC and the Chinese printer on notice (directly and in a more professional manner) as well since all 3 entities are involved in the design, manufacturing, and sales of the Legal Tender deck if they truly believe their IP was violated.

What will happen if there is an infringement of VXD’s patent?

Let me start by saying that is a big “if”, but even if there is an infringement, that issue won’t be adjudicated until well after the Legal Tender decks have been produced and sold. What they’ll end up with against Kings Wild Project and EPCC/CARC is a portion of the sales of the decks in the U.S. in the form of a monetary judgment or license, but there’s probably nothing they can do about that Chinese printer. EPCC has shown in the past that they are a bit too casual about commerce laws, and China is notorious for their disregard of U.S. intellectual property laws. If that Chinese printer wants to go rogue with the Diffractor technology and sell decks with VXD’s holo foil outside of the U.S., there’s not much VXD can do to stop them or enforce any legal judgment against them, unfortunately.

At the end of the day, there probably isn’t any infringement of VXD’s patent and VXD prematurely jumped the gun with their IP accusation before having all the facts. As evidenced by many comments on this thread, VXD didn’t gain many fans or business with their conduct. They are probably better off spending resources on a PR team rather than a legal team, and hopefully they will exercise better restraint in the future.

As for the new Legal Tender deck, I must admit I still have a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth from the first version. A big issue for me is the inconsistent handling of decks printed by the Chinese printer that EPCC contracts with. I still can’t trust them and I have doubts that adding foiling will actually improve the handling of the new Legal Tender decks. And if the foiling will extend to the edges of the cards at the indices of the court cards only, then these will end up being edge readers and not very usable for card play since the position of the court cards will be given away in a stack. But I suspect the target audience for these decks aren’t going to be cardists or poker players, but hardcore collectors. The new Legal Tenders certainly look like very impressive eye candy. As such, said collectors will have little concern about the handling or playability of the deck as they happily keep their decks pristinely sealed so that no light will ever refract of the surface of the holographic foil that they’ll never see except vicariously through some deck review on YouTube. I could care less about tucks or gilding, but I am a sucker for foil. From what I can see so far, these new Legal Tenders may have the best application of foiling of any type into card design so far. Hopefully Covic-19 doesn't slow down production of this deck and I can only hope these come out soon without delay.

[Decknowledgy]

Jackson is counting down to July 4th on IG as it seems, but were there any mention about where it would be released? Kickstarter? KWP site?

[Pablo393]

Jackson is counting down to July 4th on IG as it seems, but were there any mention about where it would be released? Kickstarter? KWP site?

Or the time of day?

[Ice_Panda]

if its this week i would bet he drops it today in his weekly discussion. I wonder if it will be members only like the black reserve note?

[EvilDuncan]

Jackson is counting down to July 4th on IG as it seems, but were there any mention about where it would be released? Kickstarter? KWP site?

The only Kickstarter project we know of is the Lord of the Rings Deck. He said he ordered like 7000 decks, so there should be more than enough for everyone.

Edit: Available to everyone, not just subscribers on the 4th.

[RichK]

Deck available 4th at 12 pm CST or 1 pm EST.

Funny video of Jackson announcing it. Watch to the end.

[PrincessTrouble]

Deck available 4th at 12 pm CST or 1 pm EST.

Actually it's noon EDT, so 11:00am CDT.