2019 'Deck of the Year' Awards: DISCUSSION

[flashcards]

A quick look at the spread sheet shows that almost every deck listed is from a Kickstarter project. There are many fine decks that did not start on Kickstarter so perhaps a Best Non-Kickstarter category would be appropriate. Since KS has such a large following, especially here, it's tough for a non-KS deck to get any attention. To that end I would also agree with Vasta's Best Bicycle category. Your basic Bike can't compete with a Lotrek or JR and shouldn't have too. Just because it doesn't cost $99 doesn't mean it can't be a great deck. The Bicycle branded Strigiforms deck of a couple of years ago, is exquisitely designed and executed but could never compete with a full foil gilded blinged out super limited edition deck.

I also agree with having a single XCM/Cardistry category. There are a large number of so-called cardistry decks out there and they should be judged among their peers and not against high end decks.

[vasta41]

Combining "ALL XCM" categories:
Best fanning may not necessary come from an XCM deck. Case in point: Randy's Draconian decks and Luxx Mandala decks. Both looks amazing in a fan, but they aren't meant to be cardistry specific decks. So I say keep both categories.

As I said in an earlier post, if the best "XCM" deck happens to be Draconian or Mandala then great! I use the term XCM as a broad, all-encompassing phrase but maybe that's what's confusing people about my argument. Maybe I should use the word "flourishing." Either way I think a line is drawn in the sand on this topic so whatever the outcome I will just continue to randomly vote for XCM decks in the multiple categories and lose like always.

Your basic Bike can't compete with a Lotrek or JR and shouldn't have too. Just because it doesn't cost $99 doesn't mean it can't be a great deck.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[PipChick]

Best Branded: Interesting category, but just how would one decide what is Best Brand? For me, right now, it's too broad for us to be able to nail down just how it's the best. So a good description is needed to help with nominations and voting. I recall KS campaigns use to put Bicycle Branded on their decks as well just to help hit their target.

So I'm not sure just what criteria to use to decide best. Best representation of the brand, homage, just overall best deck using that brand? If it's the last part, then I'm not sure why we want a sub-category of best deck in UC's DOTY. Feels like a cheap consolation price like Ms Photogenic award in the Ms World/Universe.

'Best Branded Deck' would just simply mean any deck that incorporates a company's trademarked brand (ie. Bicycle or Tally-Ho) into the tuck box design and/or back design...

And, as flashcards says, it'd be a great way to give the spotlight to those decks that couldn't (and shouldn't have to) compete against other premium, high-end limited decks that feature all the bells and whistles as these normally are more geared towards the wider market at a lower price-point - an excellent example would be the newly released Amazon exclusive Bike 'Architecture Wonders of the World' deck - I mean, it's fully-custom with original illustrations on all 54 cards, comes in a foiled and embossed tuck with custom seal and inner tuck printing all priced at 10 bucks! I mean, com'on people! We should be supporting more of these! lol But, with categories as they are, I'm very doubtful that this deck would ever even be nominated, let alone actually recognized in placement for any award which would be a shame as it, along with several others to have been released over the past year, def have done an exceptional job in carrying on the iconic Bicycle branding. This is not to say that a bicycle deck or other branded deck couldn't also win 'Best Overall Deck' buuuttt... it seems very unlikely considering the price-point these are at compared to the KWP, S17 and Lotrek's of the hobby and the extras that come with the higher cost.

. . . . .

A quick look at the spread sheet shows that almost every deck listed is from a Kickstarter project. There are many fine decks that did not start on Kickstarter so perhaps a Best Non-Kickstarter category would be appropriate. Since KS has such a large following, especially here, it's tough for a non-KS deck to get any attention.

I'm still updating the google doc as to also include decks to have been released either directly through retailers and/or through other less traditional means outside of KS... please be patient as it just takes a bit more time backtracking those. You're right, they don't get nearly the same level of exposure and I'm doing my best to comb through a lot to ensure as many of the decks to have been released over the past year are accounted for, regardless of whether it was a KS or not. I only started with KS as that's were the vast majority are coming from and it's the easiest to backtrack from lol; but rest assured, I will be including all others as well.

With that said, I do not think we should include a 'Best Non-Kickstarter' category because mass exposure of a deck is not our concern nor should be but rather that of the designer/producer(s). If a deck is great, it'll be recognized regardless of where it's coming from and it should be up against all others equally. I don't want that there's some sort of advantage/disadvantage attributed towards a deck just because of the means by which it was produced/made available prior to market release.

Besides, who knows where the hobby will be in a few years... now that JR has proven to be sucessful in his kwp subscription service and other designers are branching off in search of more stable financial support through patreon, perhaps more and more will begin to move away from KS as a whole to focus their work on appeasing their most loyal consumers rather than having to compete in the saturated market of KS that's often gunked up with waaaay more lousey decks than not. Perhaps the entire market will begin to shift away from the platform due to the high risk and poor backer experiences of scam campaigns and more and more decks will be directly produced and released through retailers like RiffleShuffle... just all speculation but my point being that a category specific to KS could hypothetically become dated and irrelevant in just a few years time. And, even if none of that ever becomes the case, that still brings me to my original point of contention against such a category: the means by which a deck was produced/made available shouldn't be what defines it as deserving of recognition for an award over any other deck... sure, it definitely affects the exposure it gets to the wider community but, again, that's not our problem and instead, something designers/producers need to grapple with.

. . . . .

Transformation deck: I like the idea of Best Art deck. But perhaps merge with the Best Non-Poker deck? But include it in the description that Non-poker includes tarot and artistic decks. However would this open up the category to include ALL card game decks?

no, it will absolutely NOT be a catch all for ALL card game decks - helllll no lol

I'm not opposed to art and transformation decks being allowed to falling into 'Best Non-Poker Deck' but, because the decks which that specific category has been created for are sooo different, I could see why others would want to keep them seprate...

Don't forget to include a brief description for each category. Really helps with nominating and voting, especially for newbies!

I'll be sure to - thanks!

. . . . .

LOOKING FOR INPUT

2. Are we all on board with the proposed new voting period? Jan. 10th - Jan. 31st?? Last call, yay or nay?
   
   
3. Okay, so it seems there's most expressed interest in potentially adding 2 more DOTY award categories: So, should both the 'Best Art Deck' AND 'Best Branded Deck' be added to this year's DOTY awards bringing up our total category count up to 17?? or maybe only one? if so, which one? Thoughts? I'd like to have a the award categories finalized no later than by next Friday if possible (the earlier, the better) so any and all thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated - thanks!

Thanks!

[STLBluesNut]

1. Yes

2. Yes

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[wingedpotato]

1. Yes
2. No to Best Art Deck, Yes to Best Branded.

[MagikFingerz]

1. Yes
2. No to Best Art Deck, Yes to Best Branded.

[vasta41]

1. Yes
2. No to Best Art Deck, Yes to Best Branded.

[IAmTheChin]

So not to open up a box right when we're about to close it but 'Best Branded' feels like it'd only be USPCC decks correct? (Tally, Bike, Bee). Baring the exception of maybe a couple others this category would just be owned by USPCC lacking diversity. It feels super targeted which is fine, but if we do that we might as well just lean into it and get that category sponsored by them for some freebies. Idk maybe I'm misunderstanding the category but it feels like it's basically "Best USPCC branded deck"?

[vasta41]

So not to open up a box right when we're about to close it but 'Best Branded' feels like it'd only be USPCC decks correct? (Tally, Bike, Bee). Baring the exception of maybe a couple others this category would just be owned by USPCC lacking diversity. It feels super targeted which is fine, but if we do that we might as well just lean into it and get that category sponsored by them for some freebies. Idk maybe I'm misunderstanding the category but it feels like it's basically "Best USPCC branded deck"?

Yes, they have established themselves as the oldest (of modern day playing card printers) and most iconic, deserving of their own category. I would love it to be sponsored but I'm not holding my breath as I'm sure UC is small potatoes to them.

Also, while you may look at this category as limiting, I look at it as an opportunity for other printers to release a brand as noteworthy as Bicycle and in time maybe win this category.

[Timmargh]

1. Yes

2. No opinion

[JacksandJokers]

I second the Best Bicycle Deck Category & Best Card Accessory would also be interesting.

Even though I'm not a cardist or magician I can see the benefits of having separate categories for fanning and cardistry as I believe the design aspect is significantly different for each.

There used to be a best Kickstarter Campaign category previously. I believe this was cut just last year in order to reduce the number of categories. The campaign that made the most money always seemed to win.

[Bradius]

1. Yes
2. I don't care

[Outsider]

I don't really see the point of a branded deck category, and I say this as someone who buys a reasonable number of them. Some limited production decks are branded or offer a branded version of the tuck - do those qualify? As mentioned above, this category is also pretty much limited to USPCC decks. Why should there be a category based on the singular decision by one company to put a brand name prominently on tucks?

I would rather see a "Best Mass-Produced Deck" category if anything, so it's not dependent on minor decision in tuck design. This would then include the vast majority of USPCC branded decks (excluding limited production custom decks that happen to be branded, those would have to qualify for another category and compete with the big boys) as well as offerings from other printers.

[MagikFingerz]

Like I said, Best Branded should include any and all brands of any printer to avoid bias. But I agree with others in that it would naturally lean heavily towards USPCC brands anyway, which makes me rethink its inclusion as it somewhat goes against the spirit of the contest IMO. And sponsoring would be awesome, but I don't want it to occur based on what would boil down to "selling out" a category (or at least perceived as such).

[Mike Ratledge]

I will agree with most and say

1: yes
2a: no, b: (best branded) yes

[RWPPFFShuffle]

1. This is fine (Jan 31 is also my birthday! Birthday buddies~)

2. I'd rather have a best transformation/semi-transformation category rather than a general best art deck, since properties of an art deck would surely qualify for any of the other categories, such as best back design, best courts, best ace, use of color, etc, right? As for best Bicycle branded, I get the reasoning for it, but also how it'd be confusing to decide which "brands" qualify. I see more validity if it was categorized by printer/stock, so best USPCC, best Cartamundi, etc, but that would be adding a lot more categories and i'm in the camp of less categories to vote for, the better. Not sure how it was done last year, but I think once people start nominating decks, it'd be easier to see which categories would need more clarification or which should be expanded.

[JackJacobsen]

1. Yes!
2. No to best art, Yes to Branded.

[montenzi]

I could go on for days arguing this but the TL;DR version is that it takes a certain amount of skill to incorporate a design into a preexisting format. People will always argue whether or not Bicycle branding adds to or ruins a deck but that's neither here nor there. Whether you like it or not it's iconic and deserves it's own category for designs that incorporate it

Brilliant! This is exactly the reason why I am going to produce a Bicycle branded deck.

Your basic Bike can't compete with a Lotrek or JR and shouldn't have too. Just because it doesn't cost $99 doesn't mean it can't be a great deck. The Bicycle branded Strigiforms deck of a couple of years ago, is exquisitely designed and executed but could never compete with a full foil gilded blinged out super limited edition deck.

Why they can't compete??? I've sold 1000 decks already in my small shop, so I have some interesting stats. The Bicycle Strigiformes was a top-selling deck (top 7 after Red/Blue Rider backs, Cobra, Monarchs,
Memento Mori, Cartomancer by Alain Benoit). Unfortunately, it's sold out.

Best Branded Deck vs. Best Bicycle Deck: It's confusing! Bicycle is the ONLY brand which can be used on custom decks. It's a quote from USPCC brand standards: "Tally-Ho is not available as a brand for custom decks that incorporate custom designed tucks or card backs". Only color changes are permitted.

Add this category - "Best Bicycle Deck," contact USPCC and ask to be a sponsor. It's still much better than accepting donations from designers.

update: i forgot to mention that we should rename "Best Pips" category to "Best PipChicks"

[Harvonsgard]

1. Yea to voting period

2. Yea to Best Branded / No opinion on Best Art

I don't see a problem when Bicycle will own this category for the next decades. They are the most popular and it is what it is.

It's confusing! Bicycle is the ONLY brand which can be used on custom decks.

It's not. There're Tally-Ho Special editions. The restriction that only Bicycle can be used for branding for independent creators or brands (from USPC) is just one year old; as far that I did understand Jackson correctly. Therefore, who knows what is in two or more years. Maybe Tally-Ho and others out of the USPC family will be open for use again. Plus there are other brands like Copag. So despite Bicycle will be leading this category, I would still call it Best Branded Deck to not having to discuss this category with the change of times.

[vasta41]

I could go on for days arguing this but the TL;DR version is that it takes a certain amount of skill to incorporate a design into a preexisting format. People will always argue whether or not Bicycle branding adds to or ruins a deck but that's neither here nor there. Whether you like it or not it's iconic and deserves it's own category for designs that incorporate it

Brilliant! This is exactly the reason why I am going to produce a Bicycle branded deck.

I hope you're serious. I'll be all over that.

update: i forgot to mention that we should rename "Best Pips" category to "Best PipChicks"

My vote for this category will be 2pc.

[rousselle]

Timeline: yes

Best Art Deck: yes

Best Branded Deck: no

And, yes, I get it that incorporating a big logo like "Bicycle" or "Superior" takes a certain amount of finesse, but so does incorporating a skull or a Cthulu or a tall ship's wheel when it isn't otherwise on the card back. Big Deal. Likewise, this is about best decks of cards, not just best tucks. And, cards don't care whether a brand is printed on the tuck. That's just my tuppence.

[MagikFingerz]

Timeline: yes

Best Art Deck: yes

Best Branded Deck: no

And, yes, I get it that incorporating a big logo like "Bicycle" or "Superior" takes a certain amount of finesse, but so does incorporating a skull or a Cthulu or a tall ship's wheel when it isn't otherwise on the card back. Big Deal. Likewise, this is about best decks of cards, not just best tucks. And, cards don't care whether a brand is printed on the tuck. That's just my tuppence.

This is a very good point. I change my vote to NO on Best Branded.

[Outsider]

This is pretty much exactly why I said I would be supportive of a Best Mass-Produced Deck category but not especially a Branded Deck category. I agree that decks like Strigiforms deserve some recognition, just not because it happens to have a brand name on the tuck.

[montenzi]

And, yes, I get it that incorporating a big logo like "Bicycle" or "Superior" takes a certain amount of finesse, but so does incorporating a skull or a Cthulu or a tall ship's wheel when it isn't otherwise on the card back. Big Deal. Likewise, this is about best decks of cards, not just best tucks. And, cards don't care whether a brand is printed on the tuck. That's just my tuppence.

Think about this from a business perspective. If you need sponsors, more UC members, bigger promotion on FB groups, add this category. Bicycle branded decks is a huge market. Some people know nothing about us, designers. But for most of them, a Bicycle deck is one of the first in their collection. It's a very specific category, but for some of us, "Best Deck for Fanning" is also means nothing. Let's remove the cardistry category as it's all about "best decks of cards." The same for "Magic" - any deck can be used for magic.

I am not trying to push this category (I don't care). But I cannot find a single reason for having more than half of the market out of this contest (again, from a business perspective only as all decks have equal chances to participate and win in any category).

[MagikFingerz]

And, yes, I get it that incorporating a big logo like "Bicycle" or "Superior" takes a certain amount of finesse, but so does incorporating a skull or a Cthulu or a tall ship's wheel when it isn't otherwise on the card back. Big Deal. Likewise, this is about best decks of cards, not just best tucks. And, cards don't care whether a brand is printed on the tuck. That's just my tuppence.

Think about this from a business perspective. If you need sponsors, more UC members, bigger promotion on FB groups, add this category. Bicycle branded decks is a huge market. Some people know nothing about us, designers. But for most of them, a Bicycle deck is one of the first in their collection. It's a very specific category, but for some of us, "Best Deck for Fanning" is also means nothing. Let's remove the cardistry category as it's all about "best decks of cards." The same for "Magic" - any deck can be used for magic.

I am not trying to push this category (I don't care). But I cannot find a single reason for having more than half of the market out of this contest (again, from a business perspective only as all decks have equal chances to participate and win in any category).

I don't think this applies. I wouldn't say this forum is a business venture, nor would I ever want it to be. A lot would be done differently if the main goal of this website was to generate revenue, and not for the better.

What you're saying about the cardistry and magic categories makes no sense to me.

I agree with Outsider that Best Mass-produced deck would be a better category, and it being limited to in-house produced decks by major playing card printers.

[vasta41]

I cannot believe it is this hard to lobby for this category. You people against this are nuts. I do not have the time not the energy to argue this anymore. Bicycle is the only card brand 99% of the world knows but you'd rather vote on a deck that looks good in a fan? If you guys are just sore and pissy that NPCC doesn't get its own category then maybe they should try to create a brand as strong and famous as Bicycle. Same for all other factories. And maybe then they can be considered in a "Best Brand" category.
To discriminate against USPCC because they create the hands-down, number 1 most selling deck in the world is ludicrous to me. But like I said, I'm spent. Do what you want, I don't care anymore.

[Outsider]

I cannot believe it is this hard to lobby for this category. You people against this are nuts. I do not have the time not the energy to argue this anymore. Bicycle is the only card brand 99% of the world knows but you'd rather vote on a deck that looks good in a fan? If you guys are just sore and pissy that NPCC doesn't get its own category then maybe they should try to create a brand as strong and famous as Bicycle. Same for all other factories. And maybe then they can be considered in a "Best Brand" category.
To discriminate against USPCC because they create the hands-down, number 1 most selling deck in the world is ludicrous to me. But like I said, I'm spent. Do what you want, I don't care anymore.

What? Almost every vote has been in favor of the category (but not art decks?), and my own proposal is basically to implement the category with the slight modification that it should be a mass-produced deck so decks like Strigiforms actually have a fighting chance, rather than it being about the relatively minor decision to put a brand on the tuck.

I just want to be clear, are you seriously that strongly in favor of including a category that specifically recognizes USPCC branded decks, including limited, custom decks that would qualify for every other category as well and just happen to offer a Bicycle branded version? Why? That would just mean the custom deck that coincidentally offered a branded version would win, even though it qualified for other categories, excluding the working-class decks I kinda thought we were making this about.

But seriously man, if it's outright discrimination not to do this and you're actually feeling emotionally drained by the thought of it not happening, don't listen to me, just do it. I got zero stake in this, I don't care about any brand on earth anywhere near that much. Or at all, really.

[rousselle]

I cannot believe it is this hard to lobby for this category. You people against this are nuts. I do not have the time not the energy to argue this anymore. Bicycle is the only card brand 99% of the world knows but you'd rather vote on a deck that looks good in a fan? If you guys are just sore and pissy that NPCC doesn't get its own category then maybe they should try to create a brand as strong and famous as Bicycle. Same for all other factories. And maybe then they can be considered in a "Best Brand" category.
To discriminate against USPCC because they create the hands-down, number 1 most selling deck in the world is ludicrous to me. But like I said, I'm spent. Do what you want, I don't care anymore.

I'm at a loss here. I'm not arguing against Bicycle branded decks being considered for awards. I'm arguing against offering an award just for Bicycle branded decks. Or, branded decks in general. That would be like insisting that the Best of Boston awards have a category for "best McDonald's hamburger" or "best nationally franchised hambuger."

Yes, it's true that having a "best mushroom burger" might mean that McDonald's will face stiff competition from the Pour House, but McDonald's still makes mushroom burgers. They can still compete. And, even if McDonald's makes better mushroom burgers than Burger King, do we really need to award a special prize to franchises because mass production loses in quality what it gains in consistency?

Likewise, most of the best fanning decks are, in fact, printed by USPCC. Looking at the past winners of the award, how many went to non-USPCC decks? Is your concern that they don't say "Bicycle" on the tucks?

Having categories for best fanning, flourishing, magic, and (as I proposed last year but got shot down) gaming decks is about functionality, not brand. It's about design and aesthetic, not corporate backers. We're not trying to shut out the most popular decks in the world by focusing on functionality. And, again, most (but certainly not all) of these prizes go to the big manufacturers anyway.

BTW, I find this debate interesting. No ego involved. If the group decides to favor which branded deck is the best branded deck, then so be it. I'll still participate. Just like I wish there were still a best accessory category of some kind, or a best poker deck, you don't like the fact that not everybody is on board with this category. That's fine. But, please don't get bent out of shape about it. I understand why you want it. And, if you get it, that's fine. But, I'm surprised you don't understand why I *don't* want it.

PS: I will also acknowledge that some "Best of <locality>" surveys *do* include special categories for franchises. The idea is not unprecedented. It's just not my cup o' tea.

PPS: I see Outsider beat me to the punch to respond to this, but I've already written it, so... here you go.

[vasta41]

I am not saying that USPCC deserves a special category. "Best Brand" was all I was talking about. My point was that even though that category may favor Bicycle, in time maybe it will be something else.
I just think there's a lot of work that goes into making a branded deck and while it probably takes way more work to design a non-branded deck, a branded deck should still be worthy enough for consideration.
When I expressed that I'm done arguing this it's not because I'm emotionally drained. It's because at the end of the day it's just a silly little contest and probably isn't worth the effort. I am just outspokenly bias towards Bicycle decks.

[montenzi]

I don't think this applies. I wouldn't say this forum is a business venture, nor would I ever want it to be. A lot would be done differently if the main goal of this website was to generate revenue, and not for the better.

1. Sure it's not a business!

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One time donations are also possible: Donate to "Friends of UC" & your UC Wall of Heroes
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2. Having a sponsor is not that bad and much better than accepting prizes from designers. One week ago, USPCC sponsored two years of "Bicycle Playing Card Collectors" FB group, provided three gift cards ($100+$100+$50) to members. Just FYI. Why not?