Exquisite Fortuna by Giovanni

[theCapraAegagrus]

All I'm reading are excuses. Just because he has 90 doesn't mean the price has to skyrocket. That's tantamount to all the 'hype' releases. The prices seem absolutely unreasonable. Exquisite Bolder was, what, $15-20? Using Perfecta Foil. Tacking on 2 more foils ain't an extra $65. Whoever is setting the price - be it EPCC or Gio - is a b-hole and will not receive my approval*.

* Don't pretend you don't want it...

[vasta41]

All I'm reading are excuses. Just because he has 90 doesn't mean the price has to skyrocket. That's tantamount to all the 'hype' releases. The prices seem absolutely unreasonable. Exquisite Bolder was, what, $15-20? Using Perfecta Foil. Tacking on 2 more foils ain't an extra $65. Whoever is setting the price - be it EPCC or Gio - is a b-hole and will not receive my approval*.

* Don't pretend you don't want it...

I wish the price were lower and I'm only upset because I wanted to own one. But don't hate the player, hate the game. If these decks sell out then clearly the market has spoken and people voted with their wallets. I just hope it doesn't start a trend. I'm still having a hard time accepting that $15 is the new $10. If $85 is the new $15 then I'll have to quit collecting. Only international collectors pay THAT much!

[Harvonsgard]

Sanity returned, but it will only last until the next paycheck hehe

This is my nominee for the QotY-Award!

[JackJacobsen]

Only international collectors pay THAT much!

*International Collection Intensifies*

[theCapraAegagrus]

Only international collectors pay THAT much!

*International Collection Intensifies*

[Thirdway Industries]

All I'm reading are excuses. Just because he has 90 doesn't mean the price has to skyrocket. That's tantamount to all the 'hype' releases. The prices seem absolutely unreasonable. Exquisite Bolder was, what, $15-20? Using Perfecta Foil. Tacking on 2 more foils ain't an extra $65. Whoever is setting the price - be it EPCC or Gio - is a b-hole and will not receive my approval*.

* Don't pretend you don't want it...

I accept any negative feedback and usually I welcome it since it helps to improve. This is different for insults - please be respectful.

[Thirdway Industries]

So calling this something unique when it comes to foil is maybe something new to EPCC ! but cartamundi is a step ahead and this that will happen again, sorry.

Yes, like @Decknowledgy said the main difference is cold foil vs hot foil.

I have to say I am not sure that Exquisite Fortuna is the only 3 layers HOT-foil on back deck... this technique was "new" in 2017, but in 2 years someone else could have done that. If yes, please let me know.

I agree that Cartamundi is probably the most innovative company in the world, I love them and I want to produce some crazy decks like Black Monolith with them again

[Harvonsgard]

Do you even realize that the Exquisite brand line belongs to Expert? And that Expert owns most of the creative decision-making rights? What's the point holding Gio accountable for this? I'd be happy to see if anyone dare drag Expert into this criticism and hold them accountable for the artistic choices.

LOL, more than happy to do so, but insults aren't allowed so I'll remain silent regarding EPCC. Unless they don't drop their IP claims against Hanson this company is dead for me.

Regarding this deck, I do feel the price is very steep aswell, but the heat of some regarding this is pretty exaggorated. This deck, like it or not is an experimental deck out of R&D if you so will, whenever was this cheap?
You don't like? You don't buy. I don't like the price tag (and those ugly courts) therefore, I'm not going to buy it. No need to critizise the featured artist when a company makes the major decision behind the deck.

[Decknowledgy]

All I'm reading are excuses. Just because he has 90 doesn't mean the price has to skyrocket. That's tantamount to all the 'hype' releases. The prices seem absolutely unreasonable. Exquisite Bolder was, what, $15-20? Using Perfecta Foil. Tacking on 2 more foils ain't an extra $65. Whoever is setting the price - be it EPCC or Gio - is a b-hole and will not receive my approval*.

* Don't pretend you don't want it...

I hope you give the same criticism to some of your prized creators and not staying silent, TP

[theCapraAegagrus]

All I'm reading are excuses. Just because he has 90 doesn't mean the price has to skyrocket. That's tantamount to all the 'hype' releases. The prices seem absolutely unreasonable. Exquisite Bolder was, what, $15-20? Using Perfecta Foil. Tacking on 2 more foils ain't an extra $65. Whoever is setting the price - be it EPCC or Gio - is a b-hole and will not receive my approval*.

* Don't pretend you don't want it...

I hope you give the same criticism to some of your prized creators and not staying silent, TP

Regarding what? Gilded decks costing $35? That's not exorbitant when compared to an 'MSRP' of $85 for a barely-custom deck. This deck is nothing compared to a Lotrek deck, yet it bears the same price tag? Pathetic.

The only insult in this thread is that potential customers for this deck are subject to a ridiculous price gouge.

You should damn-well know that I am an equal-opportunity critic. Lotrek, JR, etc. They've all felt my wrath.

[Bradius]

I am fairly sure that's because it isn't even on his radar, otherwise he might even be more tough on those.

I am fairly sure that those limited KWP decks are only even available to subscribers. The only place I see them is on the shorts member site. The reference is for the new black unbranded reserves being released. The Black Gilded (50 issued) are $80, The green gilded are $60 and a set with those and the standard reissue (ungilded) is $172. Care to stand in line for any of those?

[Decknowledgy]

I hope you give the same criticism to some of your prized creators and not staying silent, TP

Regarding what? Gilded decks costing $35? That's not exorbitant when compared to an 'MSRP' of $85 for a barely-custom deck. This deck is nothing compared to a Lotrek deck, yet it bears the same price tag? Pathetic.

The only insult in this thread is that potential customers for this deck are subject to a ridiculous price gouge.

You should damn-well know that I am an equal-opportunity critic. Lotrek, JR, etc. They've all felt my wrath.

$45 for a Gilded reprint / $60 green gilded colorswap reprint limited to 250, and $80 black gilded colorswap reprint limited to 50, $172 for a std+green gilded+black gilded set, also marketed for Black Friday sales. Similar and even more exccessive exploit of the limited factor. I'm very well aware you know what decks I'm talking about.

Harsh words oftentimes and all over the place, but don't see you bashing about this, don't see you calling this an insult to the customers, only saw you saying you don't know if you should care. Apparently, you've equally bashed the heck out of this deck while turning a blind eye to the other.

Equal criticism? Pssf

[theCapraAegagrus]

$45 for a Gilded reprint, $60 green gilded colorswap reprint limited to 250, and $80 black gilded colorswap reprint limited to 50, also for Black Friday sales. And I'm very well aware you know what decks I'm talking about.

Harsh words oftentimes and all over the place, but don't see you bashing about this, don't see you calling this an insult to the customers, only saw you saying you don't know if you should care. Apparently, you've equally bashed the heck out of this deck while turning a blind eye to the other.

Equal criticism? Pssf

Why don't we lay all of the cards out here:

- JR's decks are fully custom, color-changing whatever, reprints.
- THIS deck is minimally custom and brand new to the Exquisite line.

In one case, the consumer is the idiot for buying recolored drek. In the other, the distributor is raking the consumer over the coals for a brand new deck.

You don't have to buy one of JR's new drek decks to own the design. In the Fortuna case - you DO.

Massive difference. This is bulls^&*.

[Harvonsgard]

Seems like some are pissed because they don't get a deck they want for the price they want. Nobody forces someone to buy the Fortuna deck aswell. Simple as that. If one shows me a triple hot foiled card back deck that you got for $70 or less, in a triple hot foiled tuck box - one of them being rainbow foil.
I will happyly pay the bill for this deck and ship it to the person who wants it but feels the price is soooooooooooooooooooooo off the chart.

[Decknowledgy]

Why don't we lay all of the cards out here:

- JR's decks are fully custom, color-changing whatever, reprints.
- THIS deck is minimally custom and brand new to the Exquisite line.

In one case, the consumer is the idiot for buying recolored drek. In the other, the distributor is raking the consumer over the coals for a brand new deck.

You don't have to buy one of JR's new drek decks to own the design. In the Fortuna case - you DO.

Massive difference. This is bulls^&*.

I thought you had just argued that the Fortuna is a reuse of Expert's design? You could go and buy a cheaper former Exquisite deck if you want the design as you say, innit? And now you're arguing that this is a brand new deck now trying to justify JR's case?

This just points out how badly you want to own the deck with a new printing technique but refuse to admit the cost that's put into development. For you, gilding and reprint price raises are rather justified costs. And I'm not even trying to justify Gio's pricing which is still high, but he does offer plenty of discount chances.

Criticism don't go unchecked, mate.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Why don't we lay all of the cards out here:

- JR's decks are fully custom, color-changing whatever, reprints.
- THIS deck is minimally custom and brand new to the Exquisite line.

In one case, the consumer is the idiot for buying recolored drek. In the other, the distributor is raking the consumer over the coals for a brand new deck.

You don't have to buy one of JR's new drek decks to own the design. In the Fortuna case - you DO.

Massive difference. This is bulls^&*.

I thought you had just argued that the Fortuna is a reuse of Expert's design? You could go and buy a cheaper former Exquisite deck if you want the design as you say, innit? And now you're arguing that this is a brand new deck now trying to justify JR's case?

This just points out how badly you want to own the deck with a new printing technique but refuse to admit the cost that's put into development. For you, gilding and reprint price raises are rather justified costs. And I'm not even trying to justify Gio's pricing which is still high, but he does offer plenty of discount chances.

Criticism don't go unchecked, mate.

The back design is entirely new, dude. The lack of custom face cards doesn't change that. You can stick to whatever narrative you'd like - this is a bulls^&* cash-grab. They both are, BUT, 1 deck is new and is likely to never be available at a cheaper cost in any similar design because someone wants to manufacture rarity and use that as an excuse to gouge price.

Are you even reading my posts? What am I "justifying". Come on. Don't be ignorant. It's not even a new printing technique.

"High" is probably what led to this "MSRP". It's ridiculous and there's no two ways about it.

[Decknowledgy]

It's not even a new printing technique.

I'll stop here, but we should really let printers and creator's chime in and talk about how hard it is for hot foiling stamping for multiple layers. On the other hand, you could tell us how hard and costly it is to reprint fully custom decks from the past.

[theCapraAegagrus]

It's not even a new printing technique.

I'll stop here, but we should really let printers and creator's chime in and talk about how hard it is for hot foiling stamping for multiple layers. On the other hand, you could tell us how hard and costly it is to reprint fully custom decks from the past.

Yeah, you should stop there.

"...this technique was "new" in 2017..."

This deck isn't Golden Oath. It doesn't have foil on faces or custom courts. It's not an $85 deck - 8 days a week.

The straw-man argument of JR's gilded reprints means nothing to this deck. (Oh, look, there are non-gilded decks too.) It's a shallow price gouge.

[Decknowledgy]

The straw-man argument of JR's gilded reprints means nothing to this deck. (Oh, look, there are non-gilded decks too.) It's a shallow price gouge.

Ain't a straw-man's argument when it's used as a compare-and-contrast example against your self-proclaimed "equal-opportunity critic" while being preferably forgiving toward certain creators. Boast all you want, but most of the time your criticisms are just disses and irrelevant for productive feedback:

Whoever is setting the price - be it EPCC or Gio - is a b-hole and will not receive my approval*.

* Don't pretend you don't want it...

[theCapraAegagrus]

The straw-man argument of JR's gilded reprints means nothing to this deck. (Oh, look, there are non-gilded decks too.) It's a shallow price gouge.

Ain't a straw-man's argument when it's used as a compare-and-contrast example against your self-proclaimed "equal-opportunity critic" while being preferably forgiving toward certain creators. Boast all you want, but most of the time your criticisms are just disses and irrelevant for productive feedback.

Different situation, though, bro.

Equal-opportunity is not equal outcome.

This deck is a much worse cash-grab than JR's.

Your opinion on my opinion is moot. "Most" is also a dishonest remark - intentional or otherwise ignorant.

[aznh]

There is nothing more entertaining in this thread than reading twopiece's continued 1-up to the others and to come off as if his opinion is greater then others..

You don't like, you don't buy!

[Bradius]

I have to disagree with you aszh that theCapraAegagrus is trying to come off that his opinion is greater than others in this case. From what I am reading, Decknowledgy is accusing theCapraAegagrus of biased critisism by being critical of one producer's deck and not another producer's deck. theCapraAegagrus has simply responded with his rationale for being critical of one producer and not the other. I am fairly sure he doesn't care whether I agree or disagree with his opinion (in other words that his opinion is greater than mine). Personally, I have some trouble with his rationale. However, I have said collecting is a very personal thing to many people, so I accept his logic as his own and move on.

Anyway, in case this side discussion continues, I have taken the liberty of popping some popcorn. Gio, Decknowledgy, aszh and others, please help yourselves. If you have any food allergies, the food is virtual, so it is allergen free.



I am on the edge as to whether I am going to purchase either Exquisite Fortuna or either of the Black Reserve Note gilded decks. This isn't because they are priced unfairly or anything. I have just spent way more than I should right now and my bank account is begging me to stop.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I have to disagree with you aszh that theCapraAegagrus is trying to come off that his opinion is greater than others in this case. From what I am reading, Decknowledgy is accusing theCapraAegagrus of biased critisism by being critical of one producer's deck and not another producer's deck. theCapraAegagrus has simply responded with his rationale for being critical of one producer and not the other. I am fairly sure he doesn't care whether I agree or disagree with his opinion (in other words that his opinion is greater than mine). Personally, I have some trouble with his rationale. However, I have said collecting is a very personal thing to many people, so I accept his logic as his own and move on.

Anyway, in case this side discussion continues, I have taken the liberty of popping some popcorn. Gio, Decknowledgy, aszh and others, please help yourselves. If you have any food allergies, the food is virtual, so it is allergen free.



I am on the edge as to whether I am going to purchase either Exquisite Fortuna or either of the Black Reserve Note gilded decks. This isn't because they are priced unfairly or anything. I have just spent way more than I should right now and my bank account is begging me to stop.

The person you're responding to is nothing but a troll. Take what they say as a grain of salt (to top off your popcorn).

[Decknowledgy]

On Fortuna:

The back design is entirely new, dude. The lack of custom face cards doesn't change that. You can stick to whatever narrative you'd like - this is a bulls^&* cash-grab. They both are, BUT, 1 deck is new and is likely to never be available at a cheaper cost in any similar design because someone wants to manufacture rarity and use that as an excuse to gouge price.

[redacted]

"High" is probably what led to this "MSRP". It's ridiculous and there's no two ways about it.

On JR's decks:

The straw-man argument of JR's gilded reprints means nothing to this deck. (Oh, look, there are non-gilded decks too.) It's a shallow price gouge.

I'll leave it here

[theCapraAegagrus]

On Fortuna:

The back design is entirely new, dude. The lack of custom face cards doesn't change that. You can stick to whatever narrative you'd like - this is a bulls^&* cash-grab. They both are, BUT, 1 deck is new and is likely to never be available at a cheaper cost in any similar design because someone wants to manufacture rarity and use that as an excuse to gouge price.

[redacted]

"High" is probably what led to this "MSRP". It's ridiculous and there's no two ways about it.

On JR's decks:

The straw-man argument of JR's gilded reprints means nothing to this deck. (Oh, look, there are non-gilded decks too.) It's a shallow price gouge.

I'll leave it here

Are you contradicting yourself, or...?

Fact: They're both unnecessarily overpriced:
Fact: There are many versions of the JR deck to buy - there is no necessity to overspend.
Fact: There is 1 version of this deck to buy, and it's being unreasonably overpriced.
Fact: I have criticized both situations, equally. One happens to have a worse outlook/outcome because it's a much worse situation for any/all collectors.

You were saying...?

[rousselle]

Hi, all.

I've already stated my opinion about supporting experimentation, and this deck is experimental for EPCC, even though it is tilling ground that Golden Oath has already broken. I also appreciate Gio's role in this experiment. Up until EPCC decided to sick an IP dispute against a obvious parody deck (and, as someone who has worked in both broadcast and print comedy, this cuts really close to home), Bill Kalush had been a powerful force for good in advancing the art and technology of playing card production. Kalush's IP dispute is withering away a lot of good will for me, to be honest.

But the point I'd like to make right at the moment is that hot foil stamping on playing cards was not new in 2017. It was not new in 2007. It was not new in 1997. Gemaco and other playing card manufacturers have been offering hot foil stamping on playing cards for decades. In fact, when I got married (in 1999), the party favors for our wedding included decks of Gemaco playing cards with hot foil stamping in both gold on a green printed back and green on a gold printed back. While I was having those made, I ordered a whole bunch of playing cards with backs that had my name, e-mail address, and phone number on them for use when I went to writing and science fiction conventions. (They make great conversation pieces, as you might guess). Those had hot foil stamping in silver, on a variety of different colored printed backs.

The fact that EPCC's experimentation a couple years ago finally pushed USPCC to work on Metalluxe was a benefit for all of us, and if it contributed to accelerating the cold foil techniques developed by Cartamundi and others, so much the better. Perhaps this experiment, too, might lead to a mainstreaming of multi-pass hot foil printing. That would be fantastic.

I am still likely to pick up a deck directly from Gio, but EPCC's IP claim against a parody deck has me seriously considering the extent to which I will continue to support EPCC's efforts in the future.

FWIW.

[akicer]

EPCC's IP claim against a parody deck has me seriously considering the extent to which I will continue to support EPCC's efforts in the future.

FWIW.

Any more color on this issue? Just curious

[Decknowledgy]

EPCC's IP claim against a parody deck has me seriously considering the extent to which I will continue to support EPCC's efforts in the future.

FWIW.

Any more color on this issue? Just curious

The IP complaint against The New Chicken Nuggets by Hanson-Chien that got both this KS campaign and its predecessor pulled from KS' existence.

[STLBluesNut]

I didn't log in over the weekend and I see that this thread has taken an interesting direction. For those of you that had comments on my post, perhaps you should read it again.

I clearly said at the beginning that I did not fault Gio for the design decisions of this deck just because he designed a back and 3 cards. The overall design and pricing Gio had no control over.

The only jab I took at Gio and in fun because I know he knows how much I respect him and his art, and it should be clear to anyone else that has read my posts raving about Gio, was about being limited.

I said out of all the decks this one being 500 could be one that could actually be considered limited and from Gios comment, cautioned him not to fall into the "limited" hype trap. Even from him, that wouldn't fly with me as a selling point.

As I have stated numerous times, whether there are 2, 200 or 20000 decks produced, that number has no impact on my purchasing decision.

Is the deck overpriced? Relative to production costs? Maybe or maybe not. I have no idea how much they cost to make with that process. Relative to the design and over all composition of the deck, they definitely are for me. However, to be fair, even at $25 per I wouldn't have bought one due to the awful tuck design and standard courts.

With all the sh%&ty attitudes in this thread and many other, this forum is coming close to being one I no longer read or participate in. I'm all for putting out opinions and thoughts, but this continual crapping on and attacking others for stating them, is becoming pretty exhausting to read. I would love to see mods starting to take a more serious and punitive approach to this problem.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[Harvonsgard]

With all the sh%&ty attitudes in this thread and many other, this forum is coming close to being one I no longer read or participate in. I'm all for putting out opinions and thoughts, but this continual crapping on and attacking others for stating them, is becoming pretty exhausting to read. I would love to see mods starting to take a more serious and punitive approach to this problem.

It kind of stops being an opinion, when it is nothing but spreading negativity and kind of calling a respectful creator something (not you, but others). Therefore I can see why some call that out. And if an opinion is A and an opposing opinion is B, then I would say it is mostly on the participants to decide when to stop. That said, I agree that a little less laissez-faire from the mods wouldn't hurt, but just a little. I don't want an intervention when Bradius allready served perfectly fine popcorn.

I am on the edge as to whether I am going to purchase either Exquisite Fortuna

I would be on the edge of buying Fortuna from Gio, too; just because people feel so strongly about the price. But since EPCC died for me due to the Nuggets situation it won't really happen.