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[vasta41]

If you ask me, the devil's in the details. Here's the way I see it:

If GW is marking the decks they ship at a value of $4 who's to say the decks didn't cost that much to make? If someone paid $500 for a deck on eBay but the deck only cost $4 to produce (which, from my understanding is around average for a bare-bones deck) then what is the appropriate price to indicate?

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just adding to the discussion. Maybe that's how GW justifies their customs pricing. Is it legal? I'm not sure but I'm hoping sinjin can chime in here.

[Harvonsgard]

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just adding to the discussion. Maybe that's how GW justifies their customs pricing. Is it legal? I'm not sure but I'm hoping sinjin can chime in here.

From a juristic stance, there is a clear right or wrong. Again, according to the law in the EU the sender has to declare the retail value of the product he is sending, If GW sends you a deck that you purchased for $16 they have to declare the $16 not the production costs. So the answer to, is it legal is a clear NO. Will there be a prosecution, definetly not. It would be way to much of a hastle because luckily international law is complicated.
GW justifies the wrong declaration with 3 points:
First, almost every retailer I ordered from the US does it (some by default, some after asking the support), Jackson and Uusi are the only exceptions I know personally.
Second, because no customer will complain about not having to pay ridiculous fees and taxes
Third, they attract foreign customers and therefore selling more decks

[Bradius]

This has already been stated, but most of my GW shipments are for Kickstarter rewards and I don’t think GW receives the amount paid to Kickstarter, backer kit, etc and probably considers it a grey area and just lists a nominal value. KWP orders are direct, even in the case of Kickstarter projects, he knows exactly what was paid. He can’t pled ignorance.

[Harvonsgard]

This has already been stated, but most of my GW shipments are for Kickstarter rewards and I don’t think GW receives the amount paid to Kickstarter, backer kit, etc and probably considers it a grey area and just lists a nominal value. KWP orders are direct, even in the case of Kickstarter projects, he knows exactly what was paid. He can’t pled ignorance.

Yup, kickstarter is different. Since you technically don't purchase stuff there, and only get a reward for backing a project, it is totally fine to declare the nominal value (= production cost) in this case. Jackson could do this with his kickstarter projects aswell, would be totally legal according to EU import laws. He could do the same with his tipping jar on his homepage. If I would tip e.g. $100 and he would send me as a sign of appreciation 3 or 4 decks it would be legal to declare the nominal value aswell, since I didn't purchase anything directly.

[vasta41]

This has already been stated, but most of my GW shipments are for Kickstarter rewards and I don’t think GW receives the amount paid to Kickstarter, backer kit, etc and probably considers it a grey area and just lists a nominal value. KWP orders are direct, even in the case of Kickstarter projects, he knows exactly what was paid. He can’t pled ignorance.

Yup, kickstarter is different. Since you technically don't purchase stuff there, and only get a reward for backing a project, it is totally fine to declare the nominal value (= production cost) in this case.

That's exactly what I was trying to say, just got lost in translation. My wife tells me I'm not good at explaining things. Maybe she's on to something...

[DelMagic]

I was wondering, do EU customers pay customs fees and VAT charges on digital content such as audio mp3 or video files sent to your email?

[Ninthaquila]

ugh, don't get me started on import costs. I once got charged almost the same price as the package itself.

I'm a non-EU resident (yay Switzerland), which means that even most shipping centers in Europe wouldn't work for me. Swiss customs are a PITA to sail through (they charge you a handling fee per case, the import taxes, an additional fee for opening the package, a third fee for storing it, and a shitload of other stuff. Also, they can guess the price if they think it is not the true price, even if you show them receipts), although I've started using a german PO box for most packages (they receive the package, I pay about €2 for picking it up). This means that I could technically say to customs that it is just transitting through the EU (as I can prove that I don't live in the EU, and thus can export everything). Only drawback is that I would probably have to pay VAT in advance, and then request a cashback when crossing the border.
HOWEVER, I've never had any problems with customs since starting to use the PO box, so I can only thank those that I've bought decks from that they've lowered the prices.

@DelMagic I think that technically you are supposed to, however, there is, of course, no real way to tax it, as it doesn't really pass customs via the normal route.

[MagikFingerz]

ugh, don't get me started on import costs. I once got charged almost the same price as the package itself.

I'm a non-EU resident (yay Switzerland), which means that even most shipping centers in Europe wouldn't work for me. Swiss customs are a PITA to sail through (they charge you a handling fee per case, the import taxes, an additional fee for opening the package, a third fee for storing it, and a shitload of other stuff. Also, they can guess the price if they think it is not the true price, even if you show them receipts), although I've started using a german PO box for most packages (they receive the package, I pay about €2 for picking it up). This means that I could technically say to customs that it is just transitting through the EU (as I can prove that I don't live in the EU, and thus can export everything). Only drawback is that I would probably have to pay VAT in advance, and then request a cashback when crossing the border.
HOWEVER, I've never had any problems with customs since starting to use the PO box, so I can only thank those that I've bought decks from that they've lowered the prices.

@DelMagic I think that technically you are supposed to, however, there is, of course, no real way to tax it, as it doesn't really pass customs via the normal route.

This is my situation as well. Being in the EEA doesn't grant us ANY benefits when it comes to this particular area. And there are now talks of removing the customs threshold altogether

[Smocito]

In Portugal the limit is 22€ (including shipping). Basically everything can be stopped at customs.

If the value declared on the package is too low, they ignore it. They look at the package, shipping costs, and description and, if they think it is above 22€, they ask for the receipt and we are charged according with the receipt cost + shipping cost.

We pay 23% VAT +14€ (12€ if we present the documents trough the post website, but it takes longer to get things released) for their "trouble"...

[Gonzalo]

I was also charged with import fees for the first three decks in the delayed shipment program; never was charged before when I was receiving the decks monthly. In my case, they charged me with 10€ as import fees plus 20€ for handling, as if I had asked them to handle &%$@#.

And it took around three weeks for them to send me the package once I sent them all the paperwork.

Need to talk to Jackson. Sigh.

[Smocito]

I was also charged with import fees for the first three decks in the delayed shipment program; never was charged before when I was receiving the decks monthly. In my case, they charged me with 10€ as import fees plus 20€ for handling, as if I had asked them to handle &%$@#.

And it took around three weeks for them to send me the package once I sent them all the paperwork.

Need to talk to Jackson. Sigh.

If I remember correctly, you receive the decks as a prize during 1 year, correct?

Perhaps a print screen of the thread can help you avoid customs fees.
It is a gift and, if Jackson sends it as a gift or if he sends you a PDF saying it was a prize, customs should accept it.

[Eric Lee]

Sunish posted this on another thread last year about Kickstarter. But I think Sunish is the only one doing this for Kickstarter, sadly.

Re: How to save on shipping? Which shipping consolidator ?
by guru » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:12 pm Thanks: 1
I gave 3 Kalevala backers (6 or 6+ decks) in Europe a letter addressed to Customs where I mentioned that the product in the package is a reward/gift which the recipient has got due to the successful completion of a crowdfunding project. As Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform and not a store, so the products should be considered as gift and they can contact me for more details.

Result: Customs released the package after the receipt of the letter, and that too, without any VAT/tax.

[Gonzalo]

I was also charged with import fees for the first three decks in the delayed shipment program; never was charged before when I was receiving the decks monthly. In my case, they charged me with 10€ as import fees plus 20€ for handling, as if I had asked them to handle &%$@#.

And it took around three weeks for them to send me the package once I sent them all the paperwork.

Need to talk to Jackson. Sigh.

If I remember correctly, you receive the decks as a prize during 1 year, correct?

Perhaps a print screen of the thread can help you avoid customs fees.
It is a gift and, if Jackson sends it as a gift or if he sends you a PDF saying it was a prize, customs should accept it.

Yes, you remember correctly.
And yes, I did send the Customs guys a print screen showing them it was a gift and didn't cost me anything except the shipping costs. And yes, I explained them it was a gift. And yes, they still charged me the import fees. 30€ total. 10€ for the value of the decks and 20€ in handling fees.

My guess, it has a lot to do with the current import tax war between the U.S. and the E.U.

[Harvonsgard]

I was also charged with import fees for the first three decks in the delayed shipment program; never was charged before when I was receiving the decks monthly. In my case, they charged me with 10€ as import fees plus 20€ for handling, as if I had asked them to handle &%$@#.

And it took around three weeks for them to send me the package once I sent them all the paperwork.

Need to talk to Jackson. Sigh.

If I remember correctly, you receive the decks as a prize during 1 year, correct?

Perhaps a print screen of the thread can help you avoid customs fees.
It is a gift and, if Jackson sends it as a gift or if he sends you a PDF saying it was a prize, customs should accept it.

Yes, you remember correctly.
And yes, I did send the Customs guys a print screen showing them it was a gift and didn't cost me anything except the shipping costs. And yes, I explained them it was a gift. And yes, they still charged me the import fees. 30€ total. 10€ for the value of the decks and 20€ in handling fees.

My guess, it has a lot to do with the current import tax war between the U.S. and the E.U.

In Germany (I assume in Spain aswell, since EU) gifts are only tax free if the value is below €50. So if Jackson sended you three decks and he declared the retail value (which would be a bummer) you still have to pay taxes. They definetly should have been declared with their actual value (production value) since you didn't bought them.

[MagikFingerz]

I was also charged with import fees for the first three decks in the delayed shipment program; never was charged before when I was receiving the decks monthly. In my case, they charged me with 10€ as import fees plus 20€ for handling, as if I had asked them to handle &%$@#.

And it took around three weeks for them to send me the package once I sent them all the paperwork.

Need to talk to Jackson. Sigh.

If I remember correctly, you receive the decks as a prize during 1 year, correct?

Perhaps a print screen of the thread can help you avoid customs fees.
It is a gift and, if Jackson sends it as a gift or if he sends you a PDF saying it was a prize, customs should accept it.

Yes, you remember correctly.
And yes, I did send the Customs guys a print screen showing them it was a gift and didn't cost me anything except the shipping costs. And yes, I explained them it was a gift. And yes, they still charged me the import fees. 30€ total. 10€ for the value of the decks and 20€ in handling fees.

My guess, it has a lot to do with the current import tax war between the U.S. and the E.U.

My experience (both personally and secondhand) has been that it wholly depends on the people making the decision. Some of them seem to be on a power trip and will come down on anything THEY feel should be taxable, and they simply won't accept any explanation/evidence to the contrary (at least not after the package has been processed). There's no way for us to appeal the decision - what they say, goes.

[guru]

In my case, I'd tried providing EU & India backers, a letters addressed to Customs stating the concerned package is a gift for the respective backer who'd donated towards a kickstarter crowdfunding campaign and he/she should not be charged any VAT/Customs fees. It worked for most of the cases.

Kickstarter name as a crowdfunding platform does help in such cases.

Screen Shot 2019-10-23 at 9.38.37 PM.png (21.65 KiB) Viewed 2850 times

Screen Shot 2019-10-23 at 9.40.51 PM.png (19.75 KiB) Viewed 2850 times

Just in case, anyone needs to see how I worded the letter, here you go.

Screen Shot 2019-10-23 at 9.51.05 PM.jpg (138.39 KiB) Viewed 2846 times

[guru]

I'm a non-EU resident (yay Switzerland), which means that even most shipping centers in Europe wouldn't work for me. Swiss customs are a PITA to sail through (they charge you a handling fee per case, the import taxes, an additional fee for opening the package, a third fee for storing it, and a shitload of other stuff.

I also found Swiss Customs difficult to sail through for my backers. In the end, I'd to use Swiss Post through SFC and I don't think any of my backers faced any issue with their packages after I moved to their Postal service as the shipping channel.

[Decknowledgy]

Just got hit by another custom charge from a Kickstarter project (Order), second time already. Last time it was Hello Tiki. I've given full detail and speculation over on the Order thread.

Mods: I don't know how to do short links
Edit: Thanks, Tom!

[MagikFingerz]

Mods: I don't know how to do short links

Posting this if anyone else wants to know too:

Put whatever text you want inside the URL tags, while adding an equal sign plus the actual URL inside the first brackets.

This:

Code: Select all

[url=https://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13917&p=169392#p169392]The Order thread[/url]

Becomes this:
The Order thread

[sms69x]

Just to add my experience on the customs here in Portugal
We STILL have an exception for any goods lower than 22€, in which case no fees or taxes are applied, anything above that will be heavely taxed.

I say STILL because in 2021 all of the imports will be taxed, no matter the value, this is an EU law so it will be applied all over the EU, not only Portugal. This mean that - in the portuguese case - we will end up buying a 1€ item and have to pay 8 to 12€ in taxes and fees!!

My experience (both personally and secondhand) has been that it wholly depends on the people making the decision. Some of them seem to be on a power trip and will come down on anything THEY feel should be taxable, and they simply won't accept any explanation/evidence to the contrary (at least not after the package has been processed). There's no way for us to appeal the decision - what they say, goes.

Do you live in Portugal???! Just kidding, this is exactly what happens here too.

So yeah, I really hope all the good decks are produced the next year, as of 2021 I'll most likely retire from this all thing of collecting playing cards. Well at least buying from the US!!
I'm sure this will have a tremendous impact on creators using KS, as people will just not support when they know they will have to pay another arm and leg to get their decks out of customs.

[MagikFingerz]

Just to add my experience on the customs here in Portugal
We STILL have an exception for any goods lower than 22€, in which case no fees or taxes are applied, anything above that will be heavely taxed.

I say STILL because in 2021 all of the imports will be taxed, no matter the value, this is an EU law so it will be applied all over the EU, not only Portugal. This mean that - in the portuguese case - we will end up buying a 1€ item and have to pay 8 to 12€ in taxes and fees!!

My experience (both personally and secondhand) has been that it wholly depends on the people making the decision. Some of them seem to be on a power trip and will come down on anything THEY feel should be taxable, and they simply won't accept any explanation/evidence to the contrary (at least not after the package has been processed). There's no way for us to appeal the decision - what they say, goes.

Do you live in Portugal???! Just kidding, this is exactly what happens here too.

So yeah, I really hope all the good decks are produced the next year, as of 2021 I'll most likely retire from this all thing of collecting playing cards. Well at least buying from the US!!
I'm sure this will have a tremendous impact on creators using KS, as people will just not support when they know they will have to pay another arm and leg to get their decks out of customs.

The thing is, IF they were to tax everything regardless of value, they need to revamp the system. Paying current handling fees on every purchase no matter how small, is simply robbery. I've heard that in Sweden they have some sort of system where you can digitally declare your own purchased goods as soon as they're in the system.

[Harvonsgard]

I say STILL because in 2021 all of the imports will be taxed, no matter the value, this is an EU law so it will be applied all over the EU, not only Portugal. This mean that - in the portuguese case - we will end up buying a 1€ item and have to pay 8 to 12€ in taxes and fees!

Damn. Thanks for the heads up. Good to know.
Thankfully the asian retailers will find another loop hole. For now; shoutout to all y'all who are sending me craft supplies under a value of $2.00 from Singapur, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

[masagin303]

I can give my example (Czech Republic). This is my current monthly KWP bill:

Code: Select all

Gilded:      $45
Limited:     $30
Standard x2: $24
----------------
SubTotal:    $99 (for decks)
----------------
Shipping:    $15
----------------
VAT/Customs: $35
----------------
Total:      $149 (for complete package)

...aaaaand two more subscriptions are coming! I have some serious decisions ahead of me.

[flyers3003]

At this point, shouldn't the International Shipping Discussion be pulled into it own post? We've really strayed from the initial intent of this topic.

[Bradius]

Discussion thread abduction is a time honored and noble profession

[flyers3003]

Oh I totally agree, but in previous cases the highjacking subject matter was usually something a little lighter in nature and usually came back around to the original topic. I'm fine with leaving it if no one else sees the need to separate.

[Decknowledgy]

I agree things have been going off topic, but the thread will continue with either topics depending on the input, and so far there's nothing from the KW Luxury Bicycle Subscription chiming in or more info on that (*shrug*)

[Harvonsgard]

... from the KW Luxury Bicycle Subscription chiming in or more info on that (*shrug*)

*he writes to provoque more teaser pictures from Jackson*

[masagin303]

Teasers from IG:

[Gonzalo]

In Germany (I assume in Spain aswell, since EU) gifts are only tax free if the value is below €50. So if Jackson sended you three decks and he declared the retail value (which would be a bummer) you still have to pay taxes. They definetly should have been declared with their actual value (production value) since you didn't bought them.

Yes, that's right, but the KWP guys did their job right and the declared value was $30, so, well under $50.

On the other hand...

My experience (both personally and secondhand) has been that it wholly depends on the people making the decision. Some of them seem to be on a power trip and will come down on anything THEY feel should be taxable, and they simply won't accept any explanation/evidence to the contrary (at least not after the package has been processed). There's no way for us to appeal the decision - what they say, goes.

I totally agree. There's a lot of arbitrariness going on there. And yes, one could appeal... after having paid the fees. Chances are they aren't going to give you a cent back, but you can appeal.


Added: already drop out of the delayed shipping thing. Thanks, Nick!