Seeking a Valuation for Federal 52 Bicycle Signed

[Bradius]

I suggest we come up with a detailed tuck grading scale call the UGLIE Scale for United Grade Listing but still Imperfect Effort scale....Hey, it could work.

PS: I was trying for UGLY, but I was really having a hard time with the "Y". Yak, Yellow, Your, Yummy....they just wouldn't work. In this case though, the higher the scale, the more UGLIE the tuck is, so you want to go for a perfect low score whether the perfect is O or 1. Not sure about the top end. For coins the range is 1 to 70, with 70 being a pristine mint condition coin. Anyway, if anyone has a good idea for the "Y", please post. I prefer UGLY over UGLIE. UGLIE is just, well ugly. [BACON]

[Justin O.]

Completely wrong again.

You're highly impractical. "I won't purchase a product unless it's perfect as-is because I'm unwilling to invest a tiny amount of effort to make it so." Pretty sad IMO. It's just a tuck box. ALL of them are imperfect by way of assembly. I guess some people just want everything handed to them. Good thing I don't have to cry wolf about drek, since I can just turn it into gold myself.

Correct, I won’t spend top dollar for low grade. And it has never been an issue before, I have never had trouble getting damaged product replaced with undamaged, and the condition of my collection will always be important to me. I know I’m not the only one. Just as you are not the only collector that doesn’t care about the condition of their collection, and will accepted any old shipping-damaged, scratched, dinged and dented deck because “that’s just the logistics of production, and I guess I can’t ask for better”. But I can, and I do. I would agree that my perspective was impractical if it hadn’t been so easily maintained for so long across so many decks. But at the end of the day I feel better about my collection knowing other people’s are second rate. You may have good opinions and good theories, but you are a second rate collector, and no matter how big your collection grows, or how rare the decks you have are, if they aren’t in good condition that’s how it will always be. I hope you open all of your decks, because it sounds like a lot of them aren’t worth keeping sealed.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Completely wrong again.

You're highly impractical. "I won't purchase a product unless it's perfect as-is because I'm unwilling to invest a tiny amount of effort to make it so." Pretty sad IMO. It's just a tuck box. ALL of them are imperfect by way of assembly. I guess some people just want everything handed to them. Good thing I don't have to cry wolf about drek, since I can just turn it into gold myself.

Correct, I won’t spend top dollar for low grade. And it has never been an issue before, I have never had trouble getting damaged product replaced with undamaged, and the condition of my collection will always be important to me. I know I’m not the only one. Just as you are not the only collector that doesn’t care about the condition of their collection, and will accepted any old shipping-damaged, scratched, dinged and dented deck because “that’s just the logistics of production, and I guess I can’t ask for better”. But I can, and I do. I would agree that my perspective was impractical if it hadn’t been so easily maintained for so long across so many decks. But at the end of the day I feel better about my collection knowing other people’s are second rate. You may have good opinions and good theories, but you are a second rate collector, and no matter how big your collection grows, or how rare the decks you have are, if they aren’t in good condition that’s how it will always be. I hope you open all of your decks, because it sounds like a lot of them aren’t worth keeping sealed.

You obviously don't know what "low grade" is, because you cannot turn low grade into NM, like you can with this particular deck. Your "doesn't care" comment makes literally no sense. Because I can spend less than 1 minute to turn it into NM means I "don't care"? That's a fallacy.

As I already said, I understand that you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. High maintenance is not typical. That's why it's called "high maintenance". It's irregular.

"Second rate collector", eh? Delusion at its finest, man. Ad hominem is not a winner's tool. Whip out the ole measurement stick to make yourself feel better, if you like. It's not going to convince anyone of anything. Just deluding yourself.

[Justin O.]

You obviously don't know what "low grade" is, because you cannot turn low grade into NM, like you can with this particular deck. Your "doesn't care" comment makes literally no sense. Because I can spend less than 1 minute to turn it into NM means I "don't care"? That's a fallacy.

As I already said, I understand that you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. High maintenance is not typical. That's why it's called "high maintenance". It's irregular.

"Second rate collector", eh? Delusion at its finest, man. Ad hominem is not a winner's tool. Whip out the ole measurement stick to make yourself feel better, if you like. It's not going to convince anyone of anything. Just deluding yourself.

We just have different approaches to collecting, it's not zero sum, and they are informing our positions: Mine that condition matters a lot, yours that it doesn't matter as much. There is no delusion, this is what has been evidenced.

And high maintenance isn't high maintenance if the maintenance is not high.

BUT I would gladly be high maintenance for quality, especially if the only consequence is just being labeled high maintenance by a single anonymous internet user in a single thread that one time.

Ultimately the quality and condition of our collections reflects the characteristics of us as collectors.

[aznh]

----

[Bradius]

I've got it now. UGLY scale or United Grading for Looking Yucky decks

[Jock1971]

But at the end of the day I feel better about my collection knowing other people’s are second rate. You may have good opinions and good theories, but you are a second rate collector, and no matter how big your collection grows, or how rare the decks you have are, if they aren’t in good condition that’s how it will always be

This isn`t a really nice thing to say, each collector is different and every collection is different.

All my decks are opened and around 75% of my tucks have damage, when i say damaged i mean missing flaps, water damage, mould , huge rips, tuck that are falling apart , cellotaped tucks. I even have around 200 deck with no tucks at all.
I have packs with missing cards, missing jokers, damaged cards, ripped cards,and cards with missing corners.

Am i a second rate collector ? is my collection second rate ?
i personally don`t think so... i'm actually quite proud of my collection

[Justin O.]

This isn`t a really nice thing to say, each collector is different and every collection is different.

All my decks are opened and around 75% of my tucks have damage, when i say damaged i mean missing flaps, water damage, mould , huge rips, tuck that are falling apart , cellotaped tucks. I even have around 200 deck with no tucks at all.
I have packs with missing cards, missing jokers, damaged cards, ripped cards,and cards with missing corners.

Am i a second rate collector ? is my collection second rate ?
i personally don`t think so... i'm actually quite proud of my collection

Yes. 100% yes if more than half of your collection is ripped, water damaged and/or molding, yes.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be proud of what you have, because I agree collectors are different, but yes.

[Jock1971]

Yes. 100% yes if more than half of your collection is ripped, water damaged and/or molding, yes.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be proud of what you have, because I agree collectors are different, but yes.

that`s a terrible thing to say.

[Bradius]

It should also be pointed out that Jock has an amazing collection of old historic decks. Good luck finding those in pristine condition.

[Justin O.]

It should also be pointed out that Jock has an amazing collection of old historic decks. Good luck finding those in pristine condition.

I think that is an important consideration, where one is literally incapable of getting something in mint condition then the condition is evaluated on a very different scale. And I am exclusively talking about modern decks. But that is also why our card forums have separate sections for vintage/older/historic decks.

[Jock1971]

Justin, You called me a second rate collector and my collection second rate, without knowing me or knowing what my collection consisted of. even when i told you each and every collector and collection was different.
Just because Bradius has pointed out that my collection is 95% vintage and antique, makes no difference.
you still called me and my collection second rate.
you should be ashamed

here are a few of my second rate decks...try and find these in better condition

[JacksonRobinson]

I think you should send the deck to me and I'll resign it on the tuck and then give it a fresh cello job.

[double_left]

I think you should send the deck to me and I'll resign it on the tuck and then give it a fresh cello job.

One could argue that replacing the original cello that came from USPCC would decrease it's overall value tbh

[Justin O.]

Justin, You called me a second rate collector and my collection second rate, without knowing me or knowing what my collection consisted of. even when i told you each and every collector and collection was different.
Just because Bradius has pointed out that my collection is 95% vintage and antique, makes no difference.
you still called me and my collection second rate.
you should be ashamed

here are a few of my second rate decks...try and find these in better condition

I am not ashamed. We are not discussing vintage or antique decks, the criteria and valuation of them is completely different. It makes all of the difference.

If you would like to start a discussion in the Worldwide Time Machine about your collection then I would say something like 'wow those look old, it's wild how valuable some of them are despite being in such terrible condition, but I'm sure their condition is decent considering their age. I sure hope your modern decks are faring better'.

And I suspect that's why vintage and antique decks get their own section, because collecting them, and discussing them, is very different. So I guess to clarify, which I didn't know I needed to do in the first place, but apparently people aren't culpable for context, I am only talking about modern playing cards you can/could reasonably get new. I'm sure your vintage and antique collection is lovely, and all of your badly damaged decks are less badly damaged than their even more badly damaged peers owned by other vintage and antique collectors.

If your modern decks are in the same condition as your antique collection then your modern collection is second rate. And as a modern collector you are a second rate collector. Independent of the vintage/antique part of your collection. For you it is all one collection, but they are two completely different conversations.


Edit: if any genuine offense was taken I apologize.

[Bradius]

I think this discussion is getting way off track. Jock has an amazing collection of historic decks, and it really is a first rate collection of playing cards. I drool over his posts to be honest and try to soak up knowledge in an area I am woefully ignorant. I am also glad he doesn't limit himself to posting in areas of the forum few visit anymore. And, it should be pointed that most of us (me included) are hijacking a thread about something really outside of a simple request for a member asking for HELP.

I also agree with Justin that in the context of modern playing cards, condition does matter to a number of collectors and does affect the price you are likely to get for a modern deck. While the standards are much different in the context of antique cards, Jock will also readily admit that the condition of the cards affects the value of those cards even more, but has to be taken into context of the specific deck and the rarity of that deck and condition census of those available pool of decks (something that requires an immense wealth of knowledge).

For modern playing cards, some do completely refuse to consider even the smallest defect. That is fine. If I can find a Bronze Grotesk, which is a modern deck that is considerably hard to find, at a good price, condition is a much less of an issue to me if I am desperate to fill a hole. Rarity and need to fill collection holes plays a role too in this conversation. This is even true in modern playing card collections. In the specific case of the deck that is shown, does have a fair bit of dings that are more than what I would expect. That said, if the seller posted fair pictures, I don't think he needs to point out the condition. The interested buyers should look at the photographs posted to determine if they are satisfactory to them. In the context of the rarity and age of this deck, it probably would make me think a little bit about purchasing it for less than a bargain, but that might also be because I already have one of these decks and am not really looking to add a second to my collection. Someone else might have a hole and be okay with the deck. I don't think that makes the person that picks it up a second rate collector. I collect coins and I have some incredibly rare coins worth thousands of dollars that, while genuine, have defects that will prohibit them getting a clean grading by a third party grading service. I am fine with that because getting one that is graded would cost many more thousands, and it isn't worth it to me. Some coin collectors would pass on my coin, others would snap it up. I also have a set of more modern coins that actually are condition census coins. So I get both sides of this discussion. In my case, my higher graded coins are much less valuable and to me more of a second rate collection than my earlier coins. The marketplace agrees with me at least in the larger sense of the value of those coins.

I hazard to guess that Jock's beat up decks are worth a heck of a lot more than almost any of my modern decks in pristine condition no matter how much I personally prize them. Which from a purely marketplace perspective would say his collection is more valuable (first rate if you will compared with my collection). And, Jock, you did kind of bait Justin as he really didn't know that you collected antique decks.

[Justin O.]

I appreciate this Bradius, and Jock, the additional perspective helps. I was maybe being overly critical, and maybe more harsh than was due. While I stand by my opinions, I wasn't trying to offend anyone, or devalue them. Well maybe CapraAsparagus a little, but I genuinely value their acerbic comments most of the time, and usually agree with them in most cases, if not this one. And Jock I do not think of you as a second rate collector, but I also believe that you value the condition of your collection, even if the condition of decks you collect is on a wider spectrum than those of us who exclusively collect modern cards. So I apologize if I offended anyone, I stand by most of what I said, and feel contrite about the second rate calling, even if I don't feel ashamed, I don't believe either of you are second rate collectors. Bradius makes good points and I don't think I am benefiting my argument anymore.

[Bradius]

I just have to say this:





So, while I wipe the drool off my chin, what am I looking at?

[Jock1971]

And Jock I do not think of you as a second rate collector, but I also believe that you value the condition of your collection, even if the condition of decks you collect is on a wider spectrum than those of us who exclusively collect modern cards.

That's fine Justin, as i said, each to their own. No need for name calling...even with CapraAsparagus

And, Jock, you did kind of bait Justin as he really didn't know that you collected antique decks.

Well... i gave a 100% accurate description of my collection in the General playing cards section

what am I looking at?

That one is a 52 card Hunt & son formerly Gibson, small format pack. (some collector call these Faro or Basset style cards). English Duty Ace known as a "Garter Ace" with 6d added three times, hard to see but the number on the ace is No.2. Dated around 1804
Not cheap but i have seen lotrek, JR and even fontaine cards sell for more.

The Value of any pack depends entirely on how much someone is willing to spend on it, not age or condition (which is what this discussion is all about after all),

[theCapraAegagrus]

You obviously don't know what "low grade" is, because you cannot turn low grade into NM, like you can with this particular deck. Your "doesn't care" comment makes literally no sense. Because I can spend less than 1 minute to turn it into NM means I "don't care"? That's a fallacy.

As I already said, I understand that you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. High maintenance is not typical. That's why it's called "high maintenance". It's irregular.

"Second rate collector", eh? Delusion at its finest, man. Ad hominem is not a winner's tool. Whip out the ole measurement stick to make yourself feel better, if you like. It's not going to convince anyone of anything. Just deluding yourself.

We just have different approaches to collecting, it's not zero sum, and they are informing our positions: Mine that condition matters a lot, yours that it doesn't matter as much. There is no delusion, this is what has been evidenced.

And high maintenance isn't high maintenance if the maintenance is not high.

BUT I would gladly be high maintenance for quality, especially if the only consequence is just being labeled high maintenance by a single anonymous internet user in a single thread that one time.

Ultimately the quality and condition of our collections reflects the characteristics of us as collectors.

You're entirely unaware of the quality of my collection. That's what makes your intended attack meaningless and ultimately a concession. You didn't choose your words carefully or correctly.

High maintenance is definitely "requiring extra packaging" because you know that shipping and handling logistics create exactly what has happened to this deck. So, you must concede that tiny fixable non-permanent "damage" is a regularity. It's okay to be wrong as you clearly are here. You don't have to attempt to make it personal.

[theCapraAegagrus]

...I wasn't trying to offend anyone, or devalue them. Well maybe CapraAsparagus a little, but I genuinely value their acerbic comments most of the time, and usually agree with them in most cases, if not this one...

LOL, but also, why would you try to offend anyone around here...? None of my comments exist in any attempt to offend you. None of my comments about you being different are any sort of attack. Nothing wrong with Diversity (which is an old, old, wooden ship BTW).

Some people will look at a 9.4 modern comic book and see drek. Intelligent collectors will see something that can easily be pressed into a 9.8 (the only Modern grade worth having, really). I'm just trying to get you to understand that there is no permanent damage that is devaluing this deck. The tiny dents can very easily be straightened out. Maybe I should start a playing card tuck pressing business...

[Justin O.]

I wasn’t trying to offend anyone, I was apologizing in case anyone was offended. I didn’t expect you to be offended by asparagus, the quoted comment was hyperbole. I don’t need to see your collection if your whole position is damage is inevitable and shouldn’t be avoided/should be accepted. Comic books are very different from cards. I never said I didn’t understand that decks can be damaged in shipping, my whole position is that isn’t an excuse to accepting damaged decks. And any other point you made that I don’t agree with but don’t want to navigate back to on my phone while writing this I also have a counterpoint for.

[theCapraAegagrus]