Problem with tucks printed by Cartamundi (resolved)

[CrypticCards]

Hi all,

I'm looking for a bit of feedback from more experienced collectors/creators on a problem I'm having with my new deck, Insecta, which was funded via this Kickstarter. If this isn't the right board to post this on, my apologies and I'm sure the mods will give me a kick in the right direction!

So... My latest deck has been printed by Cartamundi BE. The print quality on the cards themselves is chuffing amazing - the level of detail preserved from the original artwork made in traditional media is astonishing. HOWEVER... All of the tucks have a crumple in one corner of the top flap, around 30% of them have peeling of the finish on the top flap, and the spare tucks I ordered to replace any with defects (because there's always some) were only partially glued - and I can't finish assembling them because the top flap is too big to tuck into the box. You can see a bigger set of images, a comparison next to another deck printed by Cartamundi, and numbers from doing the quality control here.





I contacted Cartamundi to say the cards were great but the tucks were not acceptable. I got this response from Wim Vlekken in BE, via their UK office;

With regards to the damage to the boxes. To be honest, and I‘m not saying we should not think about finding a more structural solution for this, but all our tuck boxes have this kind of damage. In fact we always use the same die cut for this card size. Depending on the design however, it’s sometimes less and sometimes more visible. So for us this is not really a valid claim, however we do understand that this is a high value and expensive tuckbox, so therefore we could accept a commercial discount of 5% on the job.... We will initiate a test to improve the “tucking” for future productions."

This is not acceptable to me, and also sounds like absolute nonsense - for a number of reasons, which in no particular order include;

- "they always look like that"/"they're supposed to be that way" is an excuse I've heard from multiple suppliers when they've messed something up and don't want to bear the cost of correcting it
- No other deck produced by Cartamundi in my collection has that damage.
- I had a wee chat with Mike Ratledge and a couple of other creators I know that have produced decks, who also did not think this excuse held water. I mean... are you seriously going to tell me that this is the best they can do when making speciality decks aimed at card collectors who are notorious for expecting perfection? I think TF not!
- Cartamundi are advertising decks all over the place, including on their public social media, all the time; they are constantly showing us what their decks should look like so pull the other one. Plucking something off their Instagram as an example, funny how I can’t see that crumple on this deck, or indeed any other (unsurprisingly)

I’ve contacted the Specialty Cards Ambassador, Jirs Huygen, who helped me out getting production sorted. Hopefully he can illuminate what’s going on here. But I’d be grateful for any feedback from other creators, collectors, designers, etc with more experience than me (this is only the second deck I've created myself.) What do you think of Cartamundi’s suggestion that “all our tuck boxes have this flaw”? Have you got other decks in your collection printed by Cartamundi that have this damage? Have you printed decks with Cartamundi and had this problem? Please let me know what you think. From my point of view, the only acceptable options are 1) Cartamundi replaces the faulty tucks or 2) I'm only paying for the cards themselves, and I'll find another producer for the tucks. Option 2 would be pretty inconvenient, but I'm not going to ship anyone else a deck in a tuck box I wouldn't be happy to receive myself. Because that would suck.

Thanks all & have a great evening,
Immy

[hsbc]

What. That is an insane reply - I don't think I have but one or two tucks with any damage at all. Thanks for standing your ground here and not sending out a subpar product Replacement or a refund are the only two acceptable options here, full stop

Please Cartamundi, get your customer service together. Just today JR posted a KS update for his Invocation deck saying he hasn't heard from them July 16 It's totally unacceptable for situations like this to keep happening, while at the same time apparently Ondrej (Butterfly Deck) recently had "numerous meetings" with Jirs in person at a convention???

Cartamundi, this is NOT okay

[CrypticCards]

Thanks - Cartamundi's response seemed bizarre to me, good to know I'm not alone in thinking it was off. Sorry to hear other creators are having problems too though. Not sure what the heck is going on with Cartamundi rn. But yeah, as a freelance artist it would be such a bad idea to send out a deck in tucks like this; its something with my name on that represents me and my work, after all. Quite aside from the fact that it's not something I'd want to receive myself! If I did knowingly send out something like that it would be a really crappy way to treat the card-collecting community too, and I've given always found that community supportive... That would be pretty dickheaded I reckon.

Immy

[Bradius]

I haven't seen the damaged tuck flaps you have seen from Cartamundi, so for them to say it is normal is just crazy senescence. I would try to get a better response from them. Although it sounds like they may just ignore you and force you to either issue them like that or reprint the tucks yourself and put all the cards in new tucks at a huge additional cost.

I find this frustrating because I believe Cartamundi is doing great things in card production. I would love to see more applications using cold foil. However, experiences like this and others is going to make that really tough for small creators. Hopefully they will get off the Carpathian Mountain and start helping the deck creators and being responsive again.

[Merlebird]

Yeah, I am in total agreement that "we always suck at this so no refunds lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" is an unacceptable response from Cartamundi. If it's a known manufacturing issue for them then they had an ethical obligation to disclose to you, upfront, the possibility that it could arise. (I too am unconvinced that this actually is the case: Thirdway's Betrayers Invictus and Black & Gold Monolith were both printed by Cartamundi, and I don't remember anyone - me included - complaining of this kind of damage on those decks, though both used a different tuck stock from what's shown here.)

And then they have the gall to offer you a whopping 5% discount on shoddy, substandard product? Fifty percent would be too much to pay for unusable tucks, but as a starting point for negotiations the proposal would at least have carried a vague whiff of good faith. This is just outright insulting.

If you're in touch with Mike already then he may be able to grease the skids for you a bit, but at this point - unless the "Specialty Cards Ambassador" ( ) swoops in from the wings and pledges to make things right at no additional cost to you - I would be pushing for as large a refund as you can get and taking your business elsewhere. It sucks, I know, but if you pay anything for another run of tucks with Cartamundi you're apparently (per their own reps! ) running a real risk of getting back another lot that has the same problems as this one. In other words, you'd be right back where you started and have paid for the privilege.

These aren't boxes of bolts. The packaging is the product. If Cartamundi doesn't understand that, that doesn't inspire confidence that they can deliver an error-free print run - of these tucks or of any custom deck project.

Best of luck to you, however you decide to proceed.

[hsbc]

unless the "Specialty Cards Ambassador" ( ) swoops in from the wings and pledges to make things right at no additional cost to you

That's literally the job

[Decknowledgy]

I have seen this tuck design with the tiny side indentations with Luke Wadey's Grid Series Three Mono Edition and Ellusionist's Marbles deck, so I went back to check them out. Turns out that both of them have the same squished problem as yours but very subtle: the Grid-Mono with True B9 finish a bit more evident than the Marbles E7 finish.

But let's be honest here, your tuck case problem is far more severe and should be considered evident damage with that consistent and unavoidable ding almost on the brink of tearing. This is not a case to be shrugged off as a norm for Cartamundi... if they persist and decide not to deal with it, I suggest giving an update on your campaign to address this issue crystal clear, and QUOTE CARTAMUNDI's RESPONSE to show how they should be in full responsibility of this issue.

I believe the consumers and other projects that are printing with Cartamundi will come to realize the situation and force the market to put pressure on Cartamundi to make the immediate change.

[Mike Ratledge]

Thanks, everyone. I asked Immy to post this here on UC to see what people thought.

Jirs _should_ make this right, surely! Crazy response from Cartamundi UK...

[Harvonsgard]

What a "oof" moment...

I don't own much Cartamundi decks, since I don't like their past paper stocks. Most Cartamundi decks I own, have 2nd party tuck boxes (e.g. House of the Rising Spades or Ravn), so not really a reference. I had some Madisonist decks in the past and some Copag Neos though, and none of them had the issue shown here in the slightest. The "looks always like that"-reply is therefore double-bs; first because it does not, at least to my knowledge, and far more important if something is crap, then it isn't a valid excuse at all. Get it fixed Cartamundi!

[CrypticCards]

Thanks so much for your responses y'all. I'm going to get on to Cartamundi (again) today and I'll let you know how it pans out. I'm going to post a Kickstarter update tonight too, because this is quite likely to cause a delay.

Have a great day,
Immy

[montenzi]

I am now a big fan of standard USPCC boxes. No kidding, I like them.

1. if you reprint it will never cover your cost of assembling decks.
2. you pay for a final product, not just for parts.

If all new boxes like those (including boxes posted by Decknowledgy), it's a big problem! I ask UC to consider printing UC2019 with USPCC.

[Harvonsgard]

I ask UC to consider printing UC2019 with USPCC.

Bad registration or bad tuck flaps ...

[hawk199]

If they at least warn buyer this is a common issue

Then there will be no complains (beside finding s solution), but the response is utter BS...here we produced damage goods so here is 5% for your next purchase

[Harvonsgard]

here we produced damage goods so here is 5% for your next purchase

Just to clarify, they'll give him 5% off of this production. Which is common practise, since it avoids further hassle for the printer. Which is kind of a good sign, because it shows that they know that they f**ked up and they wanna get rid of the matter asap.
I would urge them to reprint at their cost. The 30% with the tuck flap damaged aren't acceptable at all.

[Mike Ratledge]

Thanks to Jirs @ Cartamundi HQ in Turnhout the tucks will be reprinted and the cards stuffed properly in the new tucks.

As always, Jirs has provided a resolution that benefits both the customer and the printer.

[Mike Ratledge]

I am now a big fan of standard USPCC boxes. No kidding, I like them.

1. if you reprint it will never cover your cost of assembling decks.
2. you pay for a final product, not just for parts.

If all new boxes like those (including boxes posted by Decknowledgy), it's a big problem! I ask UC to consider printing UC2019 with USPCC.

Alex, I didn't disclose Jirs message, but I am certain that this will also include process improvements for them, so I feel certain that this is not going to be necessary.

Further, I updated the OP title / subject so it reflects the fix.

[Merlebird]

Just to clarify, they'll give h̶i̶m̶ them 5% off of this production[...]I would urge [Cartamundi] to reprint at their cost. The 30% with the tuck flap damaged aren't acceptable at all.

That's not to mention the fact that they (Immy) were sent what amounted to overpriced drink coasters in the form of spare "tucks," ordered specifically to cover for eventualities like these, that literally couldn't tuck:

the spare tucks I ordered to replace any with defects (because there's always some) were only partially glued - and I can't finish assembling them because the top flap is too big to tuck into the box.

Glad to see that Cartamundi is making them whole on this after all. Hopefully HQ knocks some sense into their UK office while they're at it.

EDIT: Although, Mike, rereading your post, I only now notice that, while you said "the tucks will be reprinted and the cards stuffed properly in the new tucks," you did not mention at whose cost. I understand the need for a certain level of nondisclosure in any negotiations involving pricing, but I sincerely hope that, at the very least, Immy is not being made to pay out of pocket for a reprint of the unassembled (and unassembleable) tucks, or the tucks with torn flaps.

[Harvonsgard]

Just to clarify, they'll give h̶i̶m̶ them 5% off of this production[...]I would urge [Cartamundi] to reprint at their cost. The 30% with the tuck flap damaged aren't acceptable at all.

Oh boy, I don't hope it came across as if I was proposing for the creator to reprint. Of course Cartamundi was meant to reprint and reading this:

Thanks to Jirs @ Cartamundi HQ in Turnhout the tucks will be reprinted and the cards stuffed properly in the new tucks.

I'm happy that Cartamundi deems it their duty aswell.

[Magistrate1500]

Thanks to Jirs @ Cartamundi HQ in Turnhout the tucks will be reprinted and the cards stuffed properly in the new tucks.

As always, Jirs has provided a resolution that benefits both the customer and the printer.

Mike:

I can't tell you how cool it is for you to assist in getting an issue like this resolved for a small/new creator. The only response I have ever got from Cartimundi about doing a deck for me is no response. Never replied to any of my emails, so I just stopped wasting my time. The big companies don't do much for those of us will small orders. You taking time to help one of us is seriously over the top awesome.

[Merlebird]

Just to clarify, they'll give h̶i̶m̶ them 5% off of this production[...]I would urge [Cartamundi] to reprint at their cost. The 30% with the tuck flap damaged aren't acceptable at all.

Oh boy, I don't hope it came across as if I was proposing for the creator to reprint.

No, not at all. I was correcting for Immy's pronouns and then bracketing to try to avoid confusion between "them" (singular, i.e. Immy) and "them" (plural, i.e. Cartamundi).

English is hard ok

[cartamundicards]

Hi All,

Just to make sure the wrong idea is not spread throughout the world of playing cards, I wanted to take the time to comment personally on this matter.

As some of you might know the specialty cards business is one we only recently started catering to, with one of the most important demands being quality.
And we are aware of this, that is why we made it a separate quality with increased Quality Control and product specialists operating the lines. Unfortunately ( and I will be the first to admit this) our quality has not always been this way and especially in the promotional business, which is very cost driven, it is much harder to implement the same QC levels as they entail a cost.
I know this is obviously not perfect as in a perfect world we would like to see every deck roll of the belt with the same high level of finishing, but that is where we are at now but are constantly looking to improve wherever we can. However I can't stress enough that, when ordering or discussing a project, you should take this into account and specifically ask for this treatment as not all salespeople are as knowledgeable of this market and it's need as myself (since I am a collector, amateur cardist and amateur magician myself). Again, this is not an excuse, but I do feel this is something that needed clarification.

Regarding this issue: We have offered to remake and re-fill all of the decks for Immy and obviously free of charge. And furthermore I would like to extend my sincerest apologies to Immy and I hope we can resolve this in a timely manner so backers don't have to wait on their decks forever.

Best regards to all, and I hope this screw-up does not ruin your trust in us as a company.


Jirs Huygen,
Global Specialty Playing Cards Ambassador
Cartamundi.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Noice.

[CrypticCards]

Hi folks,

Just to confirm what Mike said; Jirs did indeed spring into action when he got back today! Cartamundi will be collecting the decks from me here in the UK, repacking them in fresh tucks, then returning them, and I'm happy with that. The quality of print on the cards themselves is fantastic, and it would be a real shame to go somewhere else for the tucks if I didn't have to.

I think it's also worth pointing out that printing this deck went via a rather circuitous route. I'm based in the UK, and had previously printed a deck with Cartamundi here. UK print has now moved to BE, and the speciality card process is different too. So it took a while to get Jirs involved with this (which happened thanks to Mike Ratledge - cheers Mike!) Working with Belgium via the UK entity is... definitely more complicated. I think there is a lesson there for making sure everyone is aware of the process for speciality decks. But from my side, now I know who Jirs is, and can contact him directly about future projects.

Thanks all for your feedback - it's appreciated. (And thanks for correcting my pronouns )

Have a great day
Immy

[CrypticCards]

Heheh, It looks like Jirs was replying at exactly the same time as me so just to add; thanks for your help Jirs!
Immy

[STLBluesNut]

It appears that the situation has been resolved but it is still concerning to me. Not necessarily as a consumer but for the designers that have to deal with these issues. It costs them time and money. Not to mention the stress of dealing with something they shouldn't have to.

I have been really impressed by the look and quality of many Cartamundi decks but this issue and response coupled with the lack of response many creators have posted about here recently is concerning.

Thank you to all involved in getting this issue resolved for Immy and to Cartamundi for coming in here and facing the issue.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[hsbc]

It appears that the situation has been resolved but it is still concerning to me. Not necessarily as a consumer but for the designers that have to deal with these issues. It costs them time and money. Not to mention the stress of dealing with something they shouldn't have to.

I have been really impressed by the look and quality of many Cartamundi decks but this issue and response coupled with the lack of response many creators have posted about here recently is concerning.

I agree, but I'm encouraged by Jirs' response here

[Magic Tapp]

Jirs - many thanks for engaging with us here and your response to the problem at hand is very commendable. Hopefully you will continue to engage with us here.

[Eric Lee]

Wow, Jirs actually sign on UC and engaged with us here! Plus to know that he's one of us as well and takes the extra mile. Thanks, Jirs.

Now, it's not too much to ask but maybe you can help JR resolve his issue with Invocation? Nearly 1 month and no replies since July 16th.

He admitted that this experience with Cartamundi for his Invocation deck has soured him towards Cartamundi in one of his IG live. It'll be very sad not to see JR decks wrapped Cardmundi cold foil in the future.

[cartamundicards]

I'm trying to address these issues in lack of communication indeed, at the moment I think it's mostly due to a lack of resources but I'm very hard at work to improve this.
furthermore I have decided I will make a post explaining the current situation at cartamundi and will be asking for input on how we can improve things as reactions from creators and end users alike will help me as well when working towards a better way of working.

will keep you all updated.

[cartamundicards]

Jirs - many thanks for engaging with us here and your response to the problem at hand is very commendable. Hopefully you will continue to engage with us here.

definitely am here to stay! will try and be available for conversations/questions and so on as much as possible.

best regards!