MERLIN • Illuminations / Live KS

[theCapraAegagrus]

Hey Everyone who is interested in actual conversation,

Thanks to all the new backers who said hello on Kickstarter! Some of you we know very well from our previous Glitch, Leonardo, and 1001 Nights campaigns, and it’s just like seeing an old friend… and so many interesting questions!

So this from J. (a superbacker and cardistry enthusiast)

Question : Why did you choose to go with borderless backs with merlin? I’m rather agnostic about the choice between borders and borderless, but was curious about your decision. Also, what inspired the design for the back, it’s medieval, yet also somehow modern.

Merlin-Card-Backs-300-07.png

First let’s start with the borderless decision. This is always a huge decision and one a card designer can never take lightly. I’ve always felt that bordered cards look like “playing cards” - it’s the standard for playability for sure. There is something “official” about bordered cards.

Merlin-Flourish.jpg

Borderless is another thing entirely. They just feel more “artistic” and give the designer a little more room to create in. For MERLIN • Illuminations I designed both bordered and borderless backs at first, and after careful consultations with my daughter (and fellow designer), we just knew that borderless was the way to go. While we design our cards for playability, we are well aware that they are generally seen as “collectables” and brought out only for special occasions, they are not normally used for serious friday poker nights!

Moving onto the design part of your question, the initial inspiration came from a few sources… medieval tracery, filigree, and early silversmithing work I have long been interested in. People of this time were obsessed with Life and Death, as it was much nearer to them than us. So I knew I wanted to combine the life force of Nature with the instruments of death at this time…. Swords!

pasted image 0.png

Like all of MERLIN • Illuminations, the back is entirely made up of 3D models. A lot of 3D models! It was quite a process to get them all to fit together in a coherent way, and on top of that… to be 100% symmetrical! I would estimate it took about a month to get the backs done, this is all Zbrush.

Oh, and one other thing for today, yes we are now offering Uncut Sheets by popular demand.

Kind regards,

Dent-de-Lion

You're drek.

[Räpylätassu]

I appreciate that Dent-de-Lion comes here to talk about this deck despite getting some crtique for it. I still don't like it (apart from the back design), but only because of the 3D rendering style, convert this same deck to drawn illustrations and this would be great. Dent-de-Lion had some kind of a messy campaign years ago with Leonardo, I don't remember what the issues were but at least the Leonardo deck in my collection is a fine deck and part of my TOP 150 decks list. Since then Dent-de-Lion had the 1001 Nights deck project, which I haven't heard of having any problems.

Mods, can we suspend TwoPiece for a few weeks for this kind of childish behaviour and personal attacks against a creator who is trying to have an actual conversation? Thanks.

[theCapraAegagrus]

...Dent-de-Lion had some kind of a messy campaign years ago with Leonardo, I don't remember what the issues were but at least the Leonardo deck in my collection is a fine deck and part of my TOP 150 decks list...

Mods, can we suspend TwoPiece for a few weeks for this kind of childish behaviour and personal attacks against a creator who is trying to have an actual conversation? Thanks.

Intentionally removing valuable features from decks, without informing ANYONE, maybe? The ol' bait-and-switch that we hate.

Our mods aren't going to go full-CGC and suspend me for calling someone "poop". I'll probably get a PM from them sometime today, though, since you're making a fuss out of it in public.

I'll even edit the comments to add context so that they're not outright removed.

[Harvonsgard]

me for calling someone "poop".

While I enjoy your Cartman-Tourettes like comments (+ good conversations about Scotch) on decks, you could tone it down when you're writting about a person! Some common respect should be given (bait and switch aside). Doesn't matter what you call another person, it is still name-calling and shouldn't be around in a somewhat civil discourse with a stranger.

[theCapraAegagrus]

me for calling someone "poop".

While I enjoy your Cartman-Tourettes like comments (+ good conversations about Scotch) on decks, you could tone it down when you're writting about a person! Some common respect should be given (bait and switch aside). Doesn't matter what you call another person, it is still name-calling and shouldn't be around in a somewhat civil discourse with a stranger.

1. Of course; I "could" do virtually most things. I choose not to.
2. I call it reciprocation. No respect for backers = no respect in return.
3. It's only "name-calling" if untrue and/or unwarranted. Which, in this case, would be neither of those.

[Harvonsgard]

No respect for backers = no respect in return.

You forgot the "But Maaaaaaam, he started it!"

Bruh; you know you're wrong and there is no need to defend it. Simple as that. Would be simply cool if you could try to act like a grown-up and just let it rest.

[MagikFingerz]

Bruh; you know you're wrong and there is no need to defend it. Simple as that. Would be simply cool if you could try to act like a grown-up and just let it rest.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Capra, you can't really justify an ad hominem. Criticize his actions all you want (you should!), but name-calling is against the forum rules no matter how you rationalize it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

No respect for backers = no respect in return.

You forgot the "But Maaaaaaam, he started it!"

Bruh; you know you're wrong and there is no need to defend it. Simple as that. Would be simply cool if you could try to act like a grown-up and just let it rest.

"Wrong" is your moral opinion. I don't appeal to your moral authority, though. There is no knowledge in morality. So, no, I'm not knowingly anything other than honest. Your "act like a grownup" routine (high ground fallacy) is equally an attempt of an insult [provocation] as calling someone else "poop". See how that moral ambiguity of "right" and "wrong" works...?

I guess, as Tom says, it can be construed as "violating forum rules". I disagree, but it's his authority to respect.

If you really want to let it go, then let this be the final off-topic comment in this topic.

Regardless of the above - this is a project that no one should support. You don't know what the final product will be.

[Dent-de-Lion]

Dear Räpylätassu

Thank you so much for your kind thoughts. I am honoured that one of our decks is in your top 150 deck list, as you are a Legendary member here!

1001 Nights is my daughter Soleil's project, and together we are Art Playing Cards. I am so proud of her and her work. We are both very grateful to all the United Cardists members who have collected our work over the last years.

Many collectors here don't post about our work, but they do pledge. So your kind thoughts are rare, but so very welcomed.

I am considering for my next work a hand painted version of this deck, as the second deck in the series. I hope that one you will like and want to add to your collection!

Kind regards,

Dent-de-Lion
Art Playing Cards

[Harvonsgard]

1001 Nights is my daughter Soleil's project, and together we are Art Playing Cards. I am so proud of her and her work. We are both very grateful to all the United Cardists members who have collected our work over the last years.

Many collectors here don't post about our work, but they do pledge. So your kind thoughts are rare, but so very welcomed.

I am considering for my next work a hand painted version of this deck, as the second deck in the series. I hope that one you will like and want to add to your collection!

I'm curious about the hand-illustrated version as a future project. I'm not a big sucker for medieval themes per se, but if the artwork is stunning, who knows.

The 1001 Nights are by the way beautiful decks. Love them.

[Dent-de-Lion]

We had an interesting message on Kickstarter from a person new to the world of cards about Uncut Sheets that I thought I would share:

Question: I have just started collecting playing cards, it’s such a fascinating world! One of the things I was wondering is whether I should collect an uncut sheet with each deck, as they are rather expensive. Will they really add to the value of my collection, longterm? And one more question if I may, what is the size of a USPCC uncut?

Yes, if you can afford them you should collect them when offered. Uncut sheets, the playing cards that are pulled straight off the factory press, are extremely rare and a great collectors item. They are also proof that you were involved in the “first day of issue” of a new deck, and that usually - but not always - are only offered with first print runs, especially here on Kickstarter.

Collectors who display their uncut sheets often purchase two from us, so othey can show both the front and the back of the cards.

We have produced Uncuts with most of our card projects, and they have been a tremendous success with collectors, especially our serious backers here on UC. We have very few left in our private stash, and their value steadily increases.

I have a question myself actually: Collectors, are you displaying your Uncut Sheets or do you store them away for safekeeping?

Oh, and thank you shiroo56 for the kind comment about the artwork behind MERLIN • Illuminations. The hand-illustrated version would be digitally hand-painted, and I will present a mockup here when I am satisfied with the results. So please keep an eye open.

I can take no credit for 1001 Nights, which is the work of my daughter Soleil (better known as “The Best Daughter in the Universe!). She worked very hard on the art, it’s a very unique and modernistic view of the ancient tales, I love it too!

Oh and a last answer The sheet measures approximately 26" tall and 22" wide.

Kind regards,

Dent-de-Lion
Art Playing Cards

[STLBluesNut]

I do not get uncut sheets for any deck as I cannot justify the extra cost of the sheet. There are sheets that are printed with all of the other sheets for the decks and taken from that pile and are... uncut.

So they do not go through the final processes, therefore, not as much cost in labor and machine time. They do not come with a tuck, again a cost reduction. So my complaint that I cannot justify is why they cost often double or triple plus of what a deck costs? On top of that then you get extra shipping charges, which I do understand. As far as rarity, the low number is due to the low demand. Low number with low demand does not equal rare. You can print and pull off as many uncut sheets as you like so it would be an artificially created rarity anyhow. Rarity is certainly not a selling point for them.

For me it just doesn't add up and I cannot justify the cost of uncut sheets. I like some of them but I will not pay that much for them.

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[hsbc]

So my complaint that I cannot justify is why they cost often double or triple plus of what a deck costs? On top of that then you get extra shipping charges, which I do understand. As far as rarity, the low number is due to the low demand.

Yep, prices for uncut sheets are ridiculous - shipping I also 100% understand, though

Personally I've never understood the appeal of uncut sheets apart from art decks like the Ultimate Deck - like, do people really want a poster of 56 backs of the same card? (Apparently they do )

[MagikFingerz]

So my complaint that I cannot justify is why they cost often double or triple plus of what a deck costs? On top of that then you get extra shipping charges, which I do understand. As far as rarity, the low number is due to the low demand.

Yep, prices for uncut sheets are ridiculous - shipping I also 100% understand, though

Personally I've never understood the appeal of uncut sheets apart from art decks like the Ultimate Deck - like, do people really want a poster of 56 backs of the same card? (Apparently they do )

One of the few uncuts I own is for a Tally Ho Gaff deck, which looks really good with a mix of red/blue Fan Backs and Circle Backs (shoutout to Reylek who made that possible).

[STLBluesNut]

I get the appeal for some decks, I just think they are highly mispriced. I think some would be really neat to have and hang up.

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[Harvonsgard]

I do not get uncut sheets for any deck as I cannot justify the extra cost of the sheet. There are sheets that are printed with all of the other sheets for the decks and taken from that pile and are... uncut.

So they do not go through the final processes, therefore, not as much cost in labor and machine time. They do not come with a tuck, again a cost reduction. So my complaint that I cannot justify is why they cost often double or triple plus of what a deck costs? On top of that then you get extra shipping charges, which I do understand. As far as rarity, the low number is due to the low demand. Low number with low demand does not equal rare. You can print and pull off as many uncut sheets as you like so it would be an artificially created rarity anyhow. Rarity is certainly not a selling point for them.

For me it just doesn't add up and I cannot justify the cost of uncut sheets. I like some of them but I will not pay that much for them.

Working in the print industry myself, I can nothing but endorse this message to 100%! Spot on!
It is ridiculous and pretty twisted to sell an unfinished product for a higher price. And as STL perfectly pointed out, the rarity is solely because nobody really cares for them and they are a niche product with a low demand. I don't even understand why they are listed at P52... waste of data space.

The company I work for is specialized in books and calenders, It would be too funny if we could sell a calender without wire-o-binding for more than the actual calender or I imagine selling the single pages of a book instead of a binded book... for at least trice the price of course

TL;DR: Correct answer would have been: "It only adds personal value to your collection. If you like one, buy one."

I don't own any uncuts and I would only buy uncuts from transformation decks and or decks like the Ultimate deck (but I would max pay $20 for that collector's item). If I would buy one, I would frame it.

[Adonael]

I also don't own any uncuts, and the only ones I have ever considered desirable are the HOTRS Cartomancer and Black Monolith because they would shine beautifully when walking past as well as having gorgeous artwork. But hey, there are enough people out there to buy them and it doesn't affect us so let them throw away money .

[Magic Tapp]

The only uncut I have is Lorenzo’s Cartomancer. Otherwise, as others said, do not see much of a point.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Pro Tip: Don't hang up your uncut sheets with the back-side facing. Most decks have a double-backer, and you can see the ENTIRE deck, if you have the faces being the show-side.

[portcullis]

me for calling someone "poop".

While I enjoy your Cartman-Tourettes like comments (+ good conversations about Scotch) on decks, you could tone it down when you're writting about a person! Some common respect should be given (bait and switch aside). Doesn't matter what you call another person, it is still name-calling and shouldn't be around in a somewhat civil discourse with a stranger.

Did somebody say scotch? Is there a thread devoted to such in the OT forum, cos I'd be a worthy contributor.

*sips Wild Geese Single Malt*

[theCapraAegagrus]

me for calling someone "poop".

While I enjoy your Cartman-Tourettes like comments (+ good conversations about Scotch) on decks, you could tone it down when you're writting about a person! Some common respect should be given (bait and switch aside). Doesn't matter what you call another person, it is still name-calling and shouldn't be around in a somewhat civil discourse with a stranger.

Did somebody say scotch? Is there a thread devoted to such in the OT forum, cos I'd be a worthy contributor.

*sips Wild Geese Single Malt*

http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php ... c&start=60

[Dent-de-Lion]

An interesting discussion about Uncuts, and some very well made points.

Please keep in mind that these thoughts below are from a creator’s perspective (just one creator) and are certainly not claiming to be representative.

• Uncuts are way too expensive! Probably true, but there is a minimum order from the manufacturer and no guarantee of selling all the uncuts that I order.
  
  Almost to a person, everyone has said “Would never buy one!” and then mentioned one they bought or would love to buy! My interpretation of this phenomenon is that yes, they are “way to expensive” and yet some are irresistibly (and subjectively) collectible to each of us.
  
  Just because they are not cut, does not mean a gross reduction in labour… they must be moved through the factory, handled and shipped, and they are “special” so all this is non-automated. Plus, they are easily damaged. But yes, they are probably close to the same price as a finished deck.
  
  The rareness factor? Hmmmmm… Aren’t a large percentage of collectables artificially rare? Like all “limited editions”? Only old vintage things, which are often not limited editions, and often not even art, are “truly rare” - and this is due to old man Time, human destructiveness (aka ‘War”), misplacement, Lady Luck, among many other reasons.

As a creator, I focus on the Art side of things, and so I find Uncut Sheets to be a small sideshow of Playing Card Art, and thereby interesting and (sometimes) unexpectedly beautiful… as some of the uncuts mentioned here most certainly are!

Collect them if you find them beautiful… as there is never enough beauty in the world.

Kind regards,

Dent-de-Lion
Art Playing Cards

[STLBluesNut]

The rareness factor? Hmmmmm… Aren’t a large percentage of collectables artificially rare? Like all “limited editions”? Only old vintage things, which are often not limited editions, and often not even art, are “truly rare” - and this is due to old man Time, human destructiveness (aka ‘War”), misplacement, Lady Luck, among many other reasons. [/list]

That has been my point on many occasions and it really irritates me. Yes, many things are artificially, and often purposely, made rare to raise the price. In this I just generally don't buy that item unless it is still priced appropriately for what it is, regardless of the numbers produced.

However, there are so many who just blindly pony up money because something is "rare" or "limited" that the practice won't be stopping. Every GD thing in this universe, especially man made stuff, is limited.

I have also never understood some of the logic behind the limited or rare practice from a financial standpoint. So let's make 50 and sell them for a hundred dollars each and piss a lot of people off or I could make 1000 and sell them for 10 dollars each and make more money! I know there is more to it than that, but in its simplest form it seems absurd to me.

Anyway, yes I agree, that almost all rare and limited items are artificially made that way. My point is that saying "yes I know they are expensive but you should get one BECAUSE THEY ARE SO RARE," is the the problem. You made them f$#%ing rare on purpose!

As for you having to order a minimum quantity of uncuts and the card company charging you about the same for it is part of the problem. I'm ordering 1000 +or- 10% prints, just pull some off the line "should" be less expensive. Oh no, I had to hand carry 20 sheets of paper 30 yards! Wtf ever.

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[portcullis]

me for calling someone "poop".

While I enjoy your Cartman-Tourettes like comments (+ good conversations about Scotch) on decks, you could tone it down when you're writting about a person! Some common respect should be given (bait and switch aside). Doesn't matter what you call another person, it is still name-calling and shouldn't be around in a somewhat civil discourse with a stranger.

Did somebody say scotch? Is there a thread devoted to such in the OT forum, cos I'd be a worthy contributor.

*sips Wild Geese Single Malt*

http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php ... c&start=60

Thanks fka 2P

[Harvonsgard]

Just because they are not cut, does not mean a gross reduction in labour… they must be moved through the factory, handled and shipped, and they are “special” so all this is non-automated. Plus, they are easily damaged. But yes, they are probably close to the same price as a finished deck.

Nope, period. I must insist, that we don't let imagination, twists facts. As mentioned before, I work in a printing plant and I calculate print jobs for customers, the costs of an uncut sheet are way below the costs of a deck; and you don't really have to work in print business to figure that out.

Just to make this clear, since it is subjective I don't argue that uncuts are over-prized (they are for me personally, since I see their production value), but trying to imply they have cost- and/or production-wise a higher value than a deck of playing cards, is either just misinformed or flat out lying.

I endorse the rest of your post, but the quoted part is just objectively wrong.

[Harvonsgard]

As for you having to order a minimum quantity of uncuts and the card company charging you about the same for it is part of the problem. I'm ordering 1000 +or- 10% prints, just pull some off the line "should" be less expensive. Oh no, I had to hand carry 20 sheets of paper 30 yards!

Seriously, I know artists/designers a have a soft spot when it comes to things like that, but you really should tell the printers to f**k of with their uncut prices!
Till today, for quality managment purposes, in sheet-fed offset printing, single sheets are pulled out of the production over the whole print run for example to manually measure densitometric values and so on. They are held in archives (at least this is what I came across in all print shops I worked for) to have a proof in hand if the costumer complaines about colour values and/or print errors.
It is something, that the printer charges extra to make a quick buck, because nobody from an artist/designer perspective is questioning it.

[Dent-de-Lion]

Well, you certainly make some excellent points, which I agree with, but what to do? Backers order Uncut Sheets from us, and USPCC demands a minimum order. But at least from our side, they really are more difficult to handle and ship than cards.

But I do wish that they would be less expensive, though I have my doubts USPCC is going to listen to my input on that.

We even get requests for Uncut Tucks too, but not as many. They are somehow less "arty" all together on a page, which is psychologically interesting.... Perhaps because cards are often seen together but not a group of the same tucks! And also perhaps because they are not really designed to be seen "flat"!

Oh, and here's a side point, about 50% of the requests for Uncuts are for signed sheets, which "art market-wise" does add value with time as a collectable.

Interestingly, this campaign has had the most requests for Uncuts of all the projects we have had, the card back "Sorcery" being quite a hit with our backers.

For John… here is the image you needed for your blog, tried to PM it to you... but for some reason that didn’t work, so here it is.

Kind regards,
Dent-de-Lion
Art Playing Cards

[STLBluesNut]

By all means, if there is a demand for them, sell them. If the printing company charges more there is nothing you can do. I don't like the high prices so I don't buy them.

My major point was justifying high prices for them by saying they are so high priced is because they are rare.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[guru]

The only uncut I have is Lorenzo’s Cartomancer. Otherwise, as others said, do not see much of a point.

For uncuts, you can't go wrong with transformation decks Just saying...

[STLBluesNut]

I think art decks, such as the playing arts decks, might be pretty cool too. Something like HotRS Cartomancer with all that foil has to be pretty amazing.

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