Bicycle Synthesis - Kickstarter Complete!

[Atemus]

As a side note, no offense but those poker chip symbols look like a knock off of the Lantern symbols (green, red, black, white etc etc )

Personally I recognize three of the five to be common alchemical symbols.

[sprouts1115]

just to say erik from albinodragon is trustworthy. you will get your product and shipping to him is not a profit maker but a zero value. he is just covering his ass. every time he does a kickstarter he gets closer to the zero value. im sure he has some horror stories about shipping if he would care to share. personally, i'm going to ask him some questions soon about shipping. international shipping scares the crap out of me since jan 27th.

[BMPokerworld]

Hey guys,
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, I've been traveling quite a bit since the Kickstarter launched. I wanted to address some of the concerns about the costs of the deck itself. $15 is a lot if we were going with the same printing materials and design that we had will the previous two decks.

However, on this one we wanted to try something that would really make these stand out and the we felt tied into the theme really well. So we're doing these in full color, with 2 metallic inks as well. The tuck box we're working on is embossed and has foil elements incorporated into it for that techy feel that lends itself so well to this genre. At the end of the day, the tuck box will run as much or more than the cards themselves which accounts for the jump in price.

The Necronomicon deck did something similar to this at a $14 price point before the Bicycle price increase and we've added a couple more costs on top of that. I know some of you won't care what the reasons are, but for those that do, we hope you don't think this is simply a blatant money grab to try and leverage our past success. There are some very real costs associated with doing the deck the way that we want to.

Alternatively, if we did a print run that used 'normal' tuck boxes that came in at a lower price point, is that something that would interest you?

On the shipping issues, those are fixed and we can't change those. Help us find a better way to ship and we'll be all over it but so far we haven't. We'd like to offer something like the Shipper Saving Program mentioned on this site if anyone would be interested in that to help defray their shipping costs on our various projects.

Putting the cost of the deck aside for a minute, I think the problem overall with the shipping price for international buyers is that its just way too high. How are you shipping the decks? You can ship 4 decks first class mail for $18.04. That would include a handling charge of $3.00, to cover shipping materials and packing time. If you are shipping priority mail, the price would be fair if you didn't have money built into the price of the decks for shipping in the US. You are making significantly more money off of international buyers by making them pay the whole shipping and handling charge again, even though you clearly have it built into decks that are being shipped to the US. Saying that your international shipping rates are fair, when you are charging at least an extra $6.00 on a 4 deck pledge, is simply not true and you could significantly lower your shipping costs to your international customers, if you wanted to.

Thanks!

Edit Here is what I am talking about:

4 deck pledge on Kickstarter : US
Total Cost to Buyer $48.00 US
Cost of 4 decks(Estimated) -$12.00 US
Packing Material -$3.00 US
Priority mail shipping - $5.05 US
Profit before fess +$27.95 US

International
Total Cost to Buyer $73.00 INTERNATIONAL
Cost of 4 decks(Estimated) -$12.00 INTERNATIONAL
Packing Material -$3.00 INTERNATIONAL
Priority mail shipping -$23.95 INTERNATIONAL
Profit before fess +$34.05 INTERNATIONAL

So as you can see sprouts, your comment that he isn't making money on shipping is incorrect. This is assuming he isn't shipping the international orders first class mail. If he is, he would be making an additional $9.00 per 4 deck order on top of what he is already making.

[MagikFingerz]

Mike, I really appreciate you taking the time to lay down all the facts and prices. Sure, anyone can see that the shipping prices are too high, but without the numbers to back it it doesn't hold much of an argument.

Looking forward to albinodragon's reply.

[BMPokerworld]

Mike, I really appreciate you taking the time to lay down all the facts and prices. Sure, anyone can see that the shipping prices are too high, but without the numbers to back it it doesn't hold much of an argument.

Looking forward to albinodragon's reply.

As I have said many, many times, it is your deck charge whatever you want. But please don't try to justify the price by providing inaccurate information. While the price I used for the actual cost of the deck is estimated, it won't change the spread since the only difference is the shipping cost, which I have accounted for. The bottom line is he is adding the full cost of shipping for an international order into the price, despite the fact he already has money built into the deck price for US orders.

Thanks!

[cosmicsecret]

they had shipped my cthulhu decks via usps first class mail.

well Albino Dragon - Bent Castle Workshop (The Deck of the extra Ordinary Voyages) managed to find a cheap alternative for international orders.
you did not had to purchase more from them just to get cheaper rates,they figured out a alternative method for their customers!...check out the kickstarter or email them and ask for this shipping company.

but then on the other hand...you would not make extra cash on the shipping.

[max]

Anyway, I think there is something clear on KS projects.

USA shipping is included on all pledges, but USA shipping is not for free. Nevertheless, International shipping is insane.

No need to find another way to send the decks. Why not simply charge the actual cost indeed discounting the equivalent USA shipping as it would be fair). Using first class mail or priority flat rate envelope/boxes depending on the number of decks is not so expensive.

[albinodragon]

Before I put the numbers, please understand we aren't trying to make any money on shipping and our preference is to make that cost as low as possible to bring on more backers. We are completely open to finding new ways to do this if anyone has ideas. So, if you have any ideas or feedback that we could research to make this a reality, we're all ears! Adopting something like the Shipper Savings Program here seems like a good idea and we've already touched on that a bit elsewhere. If folks can help us figure out how to make this happen, we're absolutely interested.

We're all about creating a better community for everyone and find the best way to do things. It's only going to bring that many more people to sites like this one.

At the same time, we have to make sure that every product gets it its recipient in perfect shape the first time. We learned the hard way that, while insurance is a requirement, to do right by the customer you end up eating any back-and-forth shipping anyway regardless of the outcome of any insurance claim - so our goal is to send them to customers perfect the first time which is why we made some of the shipping choices we have.

Here is how the numbers break down for 4 decks in a First Class box - without "estimating".

[Breakdown A]
-$2.50 -- KS/Amazon fees (these are fees just on on the shipping portion)
-$16.75 -- First Class Shipping to Australia (have to assume worst case)
-$1.65 -- Insurance
-$3.00 -- Packing material
---------------
Total: -$23.90
Charged: $25.00
---------------
Remainder: $1.10

Or, we ship it in a flat rate priority small box for $23.95, which includes a harder box, has tracking, and is faster. So, that's what we went with because it's not only safer with the harder box, but it's actually faster and we can track it if we need to.

[Breakdown B]
-$2.50 -- KS/Amazon fees (these are fees just on on the shipping portion)
-$23.95 -- Priority Flat-Rate International
-$1.65 -- Insurance
-$3.00 -- Packing material
---------------
Total: -$31.10

Let's also look at the built-in domestic shipping assumption of $5.05.

So, that means that the assumed shipping cost charged to the international backer is $30.05. Let's break that down too.

[Breakdown]
-$31.10 -- Shipping Cost Above
+$25.00 -- Charged Shipping Overage
---------------
-$6.10 -- Remaining cost of international shipping
+$5.05 -- Domestic build-in
-$0.50 -- KS/Amazon fees (just the $5.05 portion)
---------------
Total: -$0.55

We actually are losing money on international shipping because it's worth it to ensure you get your cards in perfect condition as fast as possible. What these numbers also don't account for are the fulfillment fees that we pay to have these shipped out. After the Cthulhu project we realized we never wanted to have to stop production on everything else and become day laborers for two months at a time so we hired a fulfillment company to help us out. They were able to process about 1,000 orders for us in less than a week instead of the month it would have taken us to do it ourselves.

[BMPokerworld]

Before I put the numbers, please understand we aren't trying to make any money on shipping and our preference is to make that cost as low as possible to bring on more backers. We are completely open to finding new ways to do this if anyone has ideas. So, if you have any ideas or feedback that we could research to make this a reality, we're all ears! Adopting something like the Shipper Savings Program here seems like a good idea and we've already touched on that a bit elsewhere. If folks can help us figure out how to make this happen, we're absolutely interested.

We're all about creating a better community for everyone and find the best way to do things. It's only going to bring that many more people to sites like this one.

At the same time, we have to make sure that every product gets it its recipient in perfect shape the first time. We learned the hard way that, while insurance is a requirement, to do right by the customer you end up eating any back-and-forth shipping anyway regardless of the outcome of any insurance claim - so our goal is to send them to customers perfect the first time which is why we made some of the shipping choices we have.

Here is how the numbers break down for 4 decks in a First Class box - without "estimating".

[Breakdown A]
-$2.50 -- KS/Amazon fees (these are fees just on on the shipping portion)
-$16.75 -- First Class Shipping to Australia (have to assume worst case)
-$1.65 -- Insurance
-$3.00 -- Packing material
---------------
Total: -$23.90
Charged: $25.00
---------------
Remainder: $1.10

Or, we ship it in a flat rate priority small box for $23.95, which includes a harder box, has tracking, and is faster. So, that's what we went with because it's not only safer with the harder box, but it's actually faster and we can track it if we need to.

[Breakdown B]
-$2.50 -- KS/Amazon fees (these are fees just on on the shipping portion)
-$23.95 -- Priority Flat-Rate International
-$1.65 -- Insurance
-$3.00 -- Packing material
---------------
Total: -$31.10

Let's also look at the built-in domestic shipping assumption of $5.05.

So, that means that the assumed shipping cost charged to the international backer is $30.05. Let's break that down too.

[Breakdown]
-$31.10 -- Shipping Cost Above
+$25.00 -- Charged Shipping Overage
---------------
-$6.10 -- Remaining cost of international shipping
+$5.05 -- Domestic build-in
-$0.50 -- KS/Amazon fees (just the $5.05 portion)
---------------
Total: -$0.55

We actually are losing money on international shipping because it's worth it to ensure you get your cards in perfect condition as fast as possible. What these numbers also don't account for are the fulfillment fees that we pay to have these shipped out. After the Cthulhu project we realized we never wanted to have to stop production on everything else and become day laborers for two months at a time so we hired a fulfillment company to help us out. They were able to process about 1,000 orders for us in less than a week instead of the month it would have taken us to do it ourselves.

Your bouncing around and not comparing apples to apples.

1) The first scenario you present, A, does not take into account the $5.05 you already have built in for the priority mail shipping in the US. So even using the rest of your numbers, there would be an extra $5.05 to your total excess, which would bring your excess total to $6.15. But there are other problems. I used the $3.00 packing material (Which is where you seem to have got the $3.00 number from), based on you self insuring the decks. To me it doesn't really make sense to buy insurance for that amount of money. However if you are, than your handling charge should be less and it should be about $1.30 instead of the $3.00. So if you add the extra $1.70 back in, your excess profit on shipping is actually $7.85 ( $5.05+$1.10+$1.70) and not $1.10 as you are showing. This is of course, before fees. Also shipping for 4 decks first class mail is not $16.75 but actually $14,.53, so that would be another $2.25 additional profit almost

2) Scenario B is also incorrect as you are using the same incorrect assumptions. Packing materials are not $3.00 If you are buying insurance. You are also taking the $5.05 number at cost when you clearly have more than that built into the price. Using your scenario, your actual amount you would have built into the decks for shipping and packing material would be $9.70( $5.05+$1.65+$3.00). It clearly means you are charging less per deck and more for shipping. there is no other way to reconcile based on the information you provided above. That means your profit is way more than you are showing. You really can't have it both ways. If you are saying that you are allowing $4.65 for packing material and insurance that that would have to be added into the equation as to what you are allowing for your shipping & handling costs. Once that is done it raises your excess shipping profit well into the plus side.

Thanks!

[albinodragon]

You are correct, Breakdown A only shows the decision making process of why we use Breakdown B (priority mail), which is the more expensive of the two. When I put 4 decks and a mailer on my scale and ask my shipping program how much it is to send to Australia, the number it gives me is $16.75, so I would love to know what you are using so we can get the cheaper rate as well. And this is kind of my point here, I don't see you posing anything but an argument instead of offering solutions to help us bring these costs down.

There isn't any excess, the numbers clearly show that shipping $31.10 and that an international backer pays $30.05.

If you are saying $3 covers part of the shipping and handling, we didn't add our fulfillment costs in there and the cost of packing materials, insurance, and fulfillment is more than the $3 that we showed here. I just wanted to use the number you gave so you wouldn't argue about it (not realizing you had rolled insurance into it as well).

Here is the final breakdown for an international backer that has paid $30.05 for shipping (domestic shipping included in that number):
$3.00 - KS/Amazon fees
$23.95 - Shipping
$1.65 - Insurance
$3.00 - Packaging materials AND fulfillment costs
-------------------------
$31.60 - Total

Not sure where you keep getting that $31.05 - $31.60 = $7.85 profit

[samurai007]

Albinodragon, as Cosmicsecret mentioned above, Bent Castle Workshop had a problem because international shipping rates jumped while his decks were being printed. He found a company that allowed him to ship a large package of all the decks going to European customers together, and then they broke the package apart and mailed the individual packages for domestic European rates from there. I did something similar long ago when I lived in Japan. He said it saved him quite a bit of money, and was only a short additional delay. You should talk to Bent Castle to get the details and look into companies that do that.

[albinodragon]

Hey Samurai007,
We've talked to the guys at Bent Castle and they were very helpful. We've been looking at their solution as well as implementing a Super Shipping Savings program of our own. We really hope between these two initiatives we can drastically reduce the overall costs to international backers.

Until we are solid on those though, these are the costs we are currently incurring. I just felt I had to address the 'you're making profit from shipping argument'. A better argument may be that we aren't using the most efficient or cost effective method to ship, and I think we're getting much closer to that.

[sms69x]

The thing that realy anoys me is that international buyers have to pay for international shipping plus domestic shipping (just for you guys on the US have your decks free shipping [nothing agains you!!])!! So in reality we are not paying $23.95 (usps priority mail flat box) we also paying the $5.80 for the domestic shipping (this value I'm assuming is already in the deck price). And this my friend Albino Dragon is a f***ing rip off! That's my opinion by the way!

[albinodragon]

I think it's better if you just drop the notion that shipping is free for anyone. US backers are paying for their shipping as well, it's just rolled into the initial cost so they perceive it as free. They're paying that $5.05 the same way you are, the only difference is that to ship to you costs an additional $25 on top of that to break even.

Once we get the shipping figured out for you guys I think it will be better, but no matter where you are, there's no such thing as free shipping.

[BMPokerworld]

You are correct, Breakdown A only shows the decision making process of why we use Breakdown B (priority mail), which is the more expensive of the two. When I put 4 decks and a mailer on my scale and ask my shipping program how much it is to send to Australia, the number it gives me is $16.75, so I would love to know what you are using so we can get the cheaper rate as well. And this is kind of my point here, I don't see you posing anything but an argument instead of offering solutions to help us bring these costs down.

There isn't any excess, the numbers clearly show that shipping $31.10 and that an international backer pays $30.05.

If you are saying $3 covers part of the shipping and handling, we didn't add our fulfillment costs in there and the cost of packing materials, insurance, and fulfillment is more than the $3 that we showed here. I just wanted to use the number you gave so you wouldn't argue about it (not realizing you had rolled insurance into it as well).

Here is the final breakdown for an international backer that has paid $30.05 for shipping (domestic shipping included in that number):
$3.00 - KS/Amazon fees
$23.95 - Shipping
$1.65 - Insurance
$3.00 - Packaging materials AND fulfillment costs
-------------------------
$31.60 - Total

Not sure where you keep getting that $31.05 - $31.60 = $7.85 profit

Your obviously pulled the $3.00 from my numbers. We use stamps.com and that is where we get the shipping costs that I posted. If you do a side by side comparison, starting with the sell price and go all the way down to the net profit, you are making more money off of international customers. Have you done any metrics on how many orders you ship per hour? I have and I know how many I print, pull, pack and ship per hour. Run the exact numbers you have and post it complete on the forum like I did. Start with your sell price all go all the way through like I did and you will see that there is a larger profit on international shipments, due to the excess shipping costs. All the numbers are the same except for the shipping and fees. I will do it for you:

4 deck pledge on Kickstarter : US
Total Cost to Buyer $48.00 US
Cost of 4 decks(Estimated) -$12.00 US
Packing Material -$3.00 US
Priority mail shipping - $5.05 US
Fees $4.80
Insurance $1.65
Profit +$21.50 US

International
Total Cost to Buyer $73.00 INTERNATIONAL
Cost of 4 decks(Estimated) -$12.00 INTERNATIONAL
Packing Material -$3.00 INTERNATIONAL
Fees $7.30 INTERNATIONAL
Insurance $1.65 INTERNATIONAL
Priority mail shipping -$23.95 INTERNATIONAL
Profit +$25.15 INTERNATIONAL


There is no reason to charge $3 for handling per order when you have a $1.65 included in the breakdown for insurance. That is just wasting everyone's money.

Keep in mind, if you send the items first class mail, like members of this forum said you have in the past, then your shipping spread for international orders would be even higher. It would add almost an additional $9.00 to your profit. If you have any questions about shipping or if there is something I could help with, send me a PM and I will be happy to help you find a better solution for both you and your customer.

Thanks!

EDIT: It also doesn't make much sense that you would insure US shipments. In fact, I really don't know anybody who does. If you deduct the insurance from the US shipments and put a much more reasonable handling charge on US shipments of $2.30, the spread between the international and the US would grow by an additional $2.35 ($.70+$1.65).

[sms69x]

As BMPokerWorld mentioned $3.00 for packaging material is indeed too much! Unless you are protecting the decks with swan feathers!!
Also asking the backers to pay for the fees of a service that you requested is completly unreasonable, you should have this fees in atention on your goal, at least is what I think!
Obviously what you're doing is taking advantage of yours last success to make a huge amount of money! And this isn't right! Kickstarter was supost to be a way for YOU make YOUR dreams came true, and not to make people just pay for you to get rich!
I think that I'll create a project on KS titled "Make me Rich", because is what people nowadays do on KS!

[BMPokerworld]

Just a side by side comparison, now that all the stated costs are locked in. We charge $7.40 for a priority mail envelope in the US. He is charging $9.70. I cannot imagine what he needs to charge an additional $2.30 per flat rate envelope for.

Thanks!

[Atemus]

Just a side by side comparison, now that all the stated costs are locked in. We charge $7.40 for a priority mail envelope in the US. He is charging $9.70. I cannot imagine what he needs to charge an additional $2.30 per flat rate envelope for.

Thanks!

I may have missed it in your argument, but I think you're missing the portion that will be taken by kick starter. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, I'm just trying to help resolve the problem.

Also, I think the insults and flaming are extremely bad form and counterproductive for discussion in this thread. I respectfully ask that if you don't have something nice or constructive to say, go to aethercards.

[BMPokerworld]

Just a side by side comparison, now that all the stated costs are locked in. We charge $7.40 for a priority mail envelope in the US. He is charging $9.70. I cannot imagine what he needs to charge an additional $2.30 per flat rate envelope for.

Thanks!

I may have missed it in your argument, but I think you're missing the portion that will be taken by kick starter. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, I'm just trying to help resolve the problem.

Also, I think the insults and flaming are extremely bad form and counterproductive for discussion in this thread. I respectfully ask that if you don't have something nice or constructive to say, go to aethercards.

I am not missing it. He is over inflating his shipping pricing and trying to justify it, period. International backers of his decks pay considerable more money than their US counterparts. Charging a handling fee of $4.65 above and beyond the actual shipping fee for handling and insurance is incredulous in my book. The $3.00 charge more than offsets the handling and insurance. There is clearly no reason to charge an additional fee for insurance.


If you took the time to look at my breakdown, it INCLUDES the fees he is paying to Amazon & Kickstarter. Even after deducting those amounts, international buyers are still paying considerable more and it has been reported that he has sent previous orders out first class mail and not priority, which means he is pocketing an additional almost $9.00 on top of the already excessive charges.

I also don't think anybody has been insulting either. People have been expressing their frustration about his high shipping charges, which other Kickstarter projects have been able to avoid. Maybe next time you should read all the posts in the thread in its entirety before posting.

Thanks!

[Atemus]

You know, I did read through your excruciatingly dragged out posts. And they weren't clear, which is why I suggested it. There is no need to jump on me when I'm only trying to help.

As for my second remark, it was directe at SMS, who is actually behaving in a manner contradictory to the rules of this forum.

[BMPokerworld]

You know, I did read through your excruciatingly dragged out posts. And they weren't clear, which is why I suggested it. There is no need to jump on me when I'm only trying to help.

As for my second remark, it was directe at SMS, who is actually behaving in a manner contradictory to the rules of this forum.

Wasn't Clear? This is what I wrote: Fees $4.80 That seems pretty clear to me. Unfortunately not every explanation can be resolved by 1 or 2 sentences. Sometimes things need to be explained thoroughly. But I guess even when you do that, people still don't take the time to read them and that is probably why they say something isn't''t clear.

Tthanks1

[sprouts1115]

Bm - have you been in the trenches? i know eric has. i've been on a couple of google hangouts with him and i'm thinking "damn, i'm going to look like that guy!" you need more sun erie. But $3.00 packaging, "really" your focus is that. do you know how much foam peanuts cost. and 3 international forms cost?

i need to see some more facts in your argument bm. i'm looking at his model http://albinodragon.com/shipping-call-i ... ckstarter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BMPokerworld]

Bm - have you been in the trenches? i know eric has. i've been on a couple of google hangouts with him and i'm thinking "damn, i'm going to look like that guy!" you need more sun erie. But $3.00 packaging, "really" your focus is that. do you know how much foam peanuts cost. and 3 international forms cost?

i need to see some more facts in your argument bm. i'm looking at his model http://albinodragon.com/shipping-call-i ... ckstarter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Well since I have shipped thousands and thousands of international packages in the last 6 years, I would say I do. My answers are clearly spelled out above, but I don't really think you are interest it in seeing them now are you? It seems to me you are looking to just stir up trouble. But in any event, if you think his shipping costs are such a great bargain, despite the fact that other Kickstarter projects are charging considerable less for shipping, then by all means, buy as many as you can!!!

Thanks!

[sms69x]

As for my second remark, it was directe at SMS, who is actually behaving in a manner contradictory to the rules of this forum.

[4pmdesigner]

Bm - have you been in the trenches? i know eric has. i've been on a couple of google hangouts with him and i'm thinking "damn, i'm going to look like that guy!" you need more sun erie. But $3.00 packaging, "really" your focus is that. do you know how much foam peanuts cost. and 3 international forms cost?

i need to see some more facts in your argument bm. i'm looking at his model http://albinodragon.com/shipping-call-i ... ckstarter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I think of all the people to have an idea on shipping and packaging costs, it would be Mike (Bmpokerworld), considering that's what he does for a living, shipping decks daily. Although always a bit blunt, his points are valid. I'm really not one to "toot" my horn like many designers here do, but since my KS is currently active and being compared on this thread due to price point I feel it's about time to address it as well. I'm a designer, on my third successful kickstarter and have shipped well over 3,000 packages independently. My shipping staff consists of 2 people, sometimes 3, and not only were we able to ship over 1,200 packaging worldwide in 10 days time on Necronomicon, we did it without ever going over of budget. My current Grid 2.0 KS is a great example of knowing your numbers and playing fair. All my decks have costs, profit, packaging and shipping accounted for. With that in mind I'm still able to offer my decks at a reasonable price with reasonable shipping all around.

My only deck to have a high pricing was my Necronomicon Limited Foil decks for $14. Although they have been compared in this thread to the Synthesis price adjustment due to foil and embossing, that's slightly inaccurate. The foil we used was a special order that USPCC themselves didn't produce anymore, not the same as the foil "stamping" current offered and more than likely to appear on the Synthesis deck. This price increase for us was due to the fact we only had 1,000 produced (originally 1,500 but 500 were destroyed). And the fact the USPCC had to renegotiate to have an outside tuck provider produce the tucks.

Regardless of reasons being used to explain price points, people will do the math on their own. *POOF* I'm gone....

[BMPokerworld]

Bm - have you been in the trenches? i know eric has. i've been on a couple of google hangouts with him and i'm thinking "damn, i'm going to look like that guy!" you need more sun erie. But $3.00 packaging, "really" your focus is that. do you know how much foam peanuts cost. and 3 international forms cost?

i need to see some more facts in your argument bm. i'm looking at his model http://albinodragon.com/shipping-call-i ... ckstarter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;...

I think of all the people to have an idea on shipping and packaging costs, it would be Mike (Bmpokerworld), considering that's what he does for a living, shipping decks daily. Although always a bit blunt, his points are valid. I'm really not one to "toot" my horn like many designers here do, but since my KS is currently active and being compared on this thread due to price point I feel it's about time to address it as well. I'm a designer, on my third successful kickstarter and have shipped well over 3,000 packages independently. My shipping staff consists of 2 people, sometimes 3, and not only were we able to ship over 1,200 packaging worldwide in 10 days time on Necronomicon, we did it without ever going over of budget. My current Grid 2.0 KS is a great example of knowing your numbers and playing fair. All my decks have costs, profit, packaging and shipping accounted for. With that in mind I'm still able to offer my decks at a reasonable price with reasonable shipping all around.

My only deck to have a high pricing was my Necronomicon Limited Foil decks for $14. Although they have been compared in this thread to the Synthesis price adjustment due to foil and embossing, that's slightly inaccurate. The foil we used was a special order that USPCC themselves didn't produce anymore, not the same as the foil "stamping" current offered and more than likely to appear on the Synthesis deck. This price increase for us was due to the fact we only had 1,000 produced (originally 1,500 but 500 were destroyed). And the fact the USPCC had to renegotiate to have an outside tuck provider produce the tucks.

Regardless of reasons being used to explain price points, people will do the math on their own. *POOF* I'm gone....

To further break things down, this is how I currently come up with my shipping price for 4 decks. I am using 4 decks so I can compare apples to apples with Albino Dragon and his price for shipping 4 decks. The below breakdown is for a US shipment using a USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Envelope.

1) $5.05- The actual cost of the postage.

2) $.35- The cost of a padded envelope, a bubble pouch, a shipping label, paper to print the order and ink for the printer.

3) $1.00 - For the time it takes to print, pull pack and ship the order. I have tracked this over a year and found that we average 23 orders per man, per hour. Smaller orders can be packed at a higher rate per hour and larger orders can be packed at a smaller rate per hour. The $23.00 per hour I get allows me to pay a fair wage for the skill set required to process an order from beginning to end, as well as provide benefits and to make the necessary payments for taxes on that employee.

4) $1.00- This allows me to self insure on the smaller orders. It would be impossible to have any program correctly figure the extra amount to insure on every order. Insurance is based on the actual price the buyer pays, so it varies from order to order. If I added just a flat fee, some orders would have disproportionally high shipping charges and others would be disproportionally low. In addition, the insurance charge would always be more then $1.00. per order. This way my customers pay a lesser amount on each order than they normally would and I get to spread the risk around. There you have it. That is how I come up with $7.40 to ship 4 decks by USPS flat rate envelope. The total price to ship in the US varies from time to time as my system automatically adjusts the shipping costs as USPS adjusts their rates, our losses from the previous year are calculated in and as stamps.com adjusts there rates for insurance.

Sprouts, is that detailed enough for you? Is 4PM's explanation detailed enough for you? Are the countless other campaigns on Kickstarter that are charging less enough of an example for you? Or do you think we are all wrong and Albino dragon is the only one who is right? I hope you bring this to Albino Dragons attention, so he can explain how he is charging $9.70 for the exact same shipping method that I am using, but for much more. I am on pins and needles waiting for the both of you to reply.

Thanks!

[vasta41]

Too bad we're not on the USS Enterprise where things could just be beamed around. That's the real solution here!

p.s. This isn't the first time Mike's explained shipping and I'm sure it would be the last. How anyone can argue with him is beyond me. It's like asking if the USPCC knows how much a deck costs.

[Shane_Tyree]

Bm - have you been in the trenches? i know eric has. i've been on a couple of google hangouts with him and i'm thinking "damn, i'm going to look like that guy!" you need more sun erie. But $3.00 packaging, "really" your focus is that. do you know how much foam peanuts cost. and 3 international forms cost?

i need to see some more facts in your argument bm. i'm looking at his model http://albinodragon.com/shipping-call-i ... ckstarter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.............

I think of all the people to have an idea on shipping and packaging costs, it would be Mike (Bmpokerworld), considering that's what he does for a living, shipping decks daily. Although always a bit blunt, his points are valid. I'm really not one to "toot" my horn like many designers here do, but since my KS is currently active and being compared on this thread due to price point I feel it's about time to address it as well. I'm a designer, on my third successful kickstarter and have shipped well over 3,000 packages independently. My shipping staff consists of 2 people, sometimes 3, and not only were we able to ship over 1,200 packaging worldwide in 10 days time on Necronomicon, we did it without ever going over of budget. My current Grid 2.0 KS is a great example of knowing your numbers and playing fair. All my decks have costs, profit, packaging and shipping accounted for. With that in mind I'm still able to offer my decks at a reasonable price with reasonable shipping all around.

My only deck to have a high pricing was my Necronomicon Limited Foil decks for $14. Although they have been compared in this thread to the Synthesis price adjustment due to foil and embossing, that's slightly inaccurate. The foil we used was a special order that USPCC themselves didn't produce anymore, not the same as the foil "stamping" current offered and more than likely to appear on the Synthesis deck. This price increase for us was due to the fact we only had 1,000 produced (originally 1,500 but 500 were destroyed). And the fact the USPCC had to renegotiate to have an outside tuck provider produce the tucks.

Regardless of reasons being used to explain price points, people will do the math on their own. *POOF* I'm gone....

To further break things down, this is how I currently come up with my shipping price for 4 decks. I am using 4 decks so I can compare apples to apples with Albino Dragon and his price for shipping 4 decks. The below breakdown is for a US shipment using a USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Envelope.

1) $5.05- The actual cost of the postage.

2) $.35- The cost of a padded envelope, a bubble pouch, a shipping label, paper to print the order and ink for the printer.

3) $1.00 - For the time it takes to print, pull pack and ship the order. I have tracked this over a year and found that we average 23 orders per man, per hour. Smaller orders can be packed at a higher rate per hour and larger orders can be packed at a smaller rate per hour. The $23.00 per hour I get allows me to pay a fair wage for the skill set required to process an order from beginning to end, as well as provide benefits and to make the necessary payments for taxes on that employee.

4) $1.00- This allows me to self insure on the smaller orders. It would be impossible to have any program correctly figure the extra amount to insure on every order. Insurance is based on the actual price the buyer pays, so it varies from order to order. If I added just a flat fee, some orders would have disproportionally high shipping charges and others would be disproportionally low. In addition, the insurance charge would always be more then $1.00. per order. This way my customers pay a lesser amount on each order than they normally would and I get to spread the risk around. There you have it. That is how I come up with $7.40 to ship 4 decks by USPS flat rate envelope. The total price to ship in the US varies from time to time and my system automatically adjusts the shipping costs as USPS adjusts their rates, our losses from the previous year are calculated in and as stamps.com adjusts there rates for insurance.

Sprouts, is that detailed enough for you? Is 4PM's explanation detailed enough for you? Are the countless other campaigns on Kickstarter that are charging less enough of an example for you? Or do you think we are all wrong and Albino dragon is the only one who is right? I hope you bring this to Albino Dragons attention, so he can explain how he is charging $9.70 for the exact same shipping method that I am using, but for much more. I am on pins and needles waiting for the both of you to reply.

Thanks!

Well I am neither one of them, but I am going to reply nonetheless. Erik stated his figures, and you yours. You are both insisting that the other is wrong, and there are people inclined to agree with either of you. While I don't dispute you guys know a good deal about fulfillment, being the artist on this project gives me some unique perspective.

I work directly with Bicycle, as likely does any one of you guys that does business with them. Short of dumping out the figures for what you pay for these things (what likely MOST OF YOU pay for these things) suffice to say we all make a profit.

We pay a lot for these things. We don't do large runs for retail, and we don't get a great rate as a result. Once you figure in the cost of managing the project, hand drawing each card (oftentimes live), the embellishments we are putting into this, and the shipping and handling. We don't have a ton of daylight.

The bottom line is, while I can understand expressing concern, the vehemence here is pretty pointed. And not just from BMPokerworld. A lot of you guys do not like what we do, and do not want us to do it. Ok, that's fair. You think your own products are superior, you don't approve of our methods or numerics or what have you. Also fair.

I would ask that we stop short of hurling accusations, or using a bully pulpit to assault the merit of a project based on assumptions about our figures that frankly you aren't making about anyone else's project because they meet your criteria of acceptability. I would say, lets look in depth at other projects, and their shipping costs, and find the disparity that seems to be so offensive.

Money says it is a couple of bucks at the end of the day.

That's all.

Thanks.

[BMPokerworld]

Shane,

Glad you decided to join the forum!!! I don't think anybody here wants you to stop doing what you are doing. In fact, I would say it is just to opposite. In addition, everyone here expects you to make money, but that isn't the point. Management and designing a deck has nothing to do with shipping. The shipping is excessive and it has been clearly stated in my opinion. You say it is just a "a couple of bucks". If it is just a couple of bucks and doesn't matter, then you could refund those so called non-mattering couple of bucks right? But it does matter because over a large amount of orders, it adds up.

To be honest, the concern for me and other forum members is that you shipped other campaigns first class mail, which would significantly add to your bottom line above and beyond your higher priority mail rates. Also I don't think anyone here, except for one member, has agreed with your numbers on shipping. The evidence is pretty clear that your shipping charges are above and beyond what is fair. Numerous people have told you this, so maybe it is time you should listen to your customers and supporters.

Thanks!

[sprouts1115]

BM - or should i say BullyMpokerworld. "I am on pins and needles waiting for the both of you to reply." i feel honored, but yet you will be disappointed. i don't know a lot about shipping but absorbing. but to get things straight, correct me if i'm wrong. BM you're using a padded envelop for 4 decks international and albinodragon is using a flat rate box for 4 decks international. is this what the bitch is about?

i'll tell you what though. this has been a lively debate so far with facts and emotions and up and coming designers will be reading this with interest later on.