Vanda Standard Playing Cards

[Harvonsgard]

There was a moment when it came out it was questioned whether it was copying the concept of Echo by Lotusinhand...

Seriously? Ironic.

By the way, again, regarding A1 HIE; the artworks from B. Thom Stevenson are collages/xerox (copy) art, none of the ingredients are original, meant to be original or ever claimed to be original. He doesn't even made the pieces especially for the deck, they just took existing ones and slapped them on the jokers/court cards.

Echoes too, never claimed to be original or is in any kind of shape or form original. Or is there seriously someone thinking a button-like white circle on a carbon fibre like pattern is original?

[oddsmaker003]

So with your logic someone could reprint planets as long as they say made a very minor adjustment? The idea of making a deck VERY similar to an existing deck within months of the original release is disgraceful! Period! Your moral compass is clearly off. Keep doing what you are doing, I've got my popcorn awaiting the train wreck.

The homage decks isn't what I'm talking about. After a certain amount of time has passed I don't see a problem with that. But months is too soon. If you say you never saw Will Roys Circus Deck or Anyone's deck prior to creating Zero and Circles you are full of ****.

If you call people names, just because you disagree or don't believe them, then your moral compass seems to be no bench mark.

Great point! But I wasn't calling him a train wreck. A train wreck is an event. But thanks for the free advice.



Let me be specific. True anyone can use the circles pattern. Put it wherever they please. The problem is that Anyone made the deck and specifically marketed it to cardists. Then Vanda comes along and decides they want to have a little cardistry club with a monthly deck. He then makes circles and markets to cardists. This directly impacts Anyone. I bet you all wouldnt be signing the same tune if he was on planet #4 and someone jumped in with 5-8 before he had a chance to complete 5. Like it or not the business practice at a minimum is unethical.

[Harvonsgard]

Great point! But I wasn't calling him a train wreck. A train wreck is an event. But thanks for the free advice.

I was referring to the "full of..."

Like it or not the business practice at a minimum is unethical.

You are exaggorating immensely. You definetly shouldn't throw around words like "moral" and "unethical" when it comes to playing cards design. This will inflate the words even more, than they allready are.

As I mentioned before, I like when you express your opinion (in a polite way, without calling someone full of ...). I for my part, read your post, see the claims as completly unjustified (for reasons David nicely explained in his answer to your post) and move on.
I own A1 HIE, because I like it and it is visually pleasing to me, not because I'm delussional and think it is an original masterpiece. As mentioned from Decknowlodgy, there is nothing original about this deck other than the idea to put existing pieces from B.Thom Stevenson on playing cards. I saw the circles deck from Vanda; thought aswell, "I wouldn't put that out there after A1 put out HIE" and moved on. The market (consumers) decided, the designs weren't good enough and that is it. A1 HIE is sold out (and was before the Vanda campaign started) and circles didn't get funded, so where again was Anyone Worldwide affected in any way?

I never saw the Circus deck from Will Roya (therefore I believe the claim that David didn't saw it either), therefore the discussion about it only brings attention (publicity) to his deck, therefore it is only a win situation for Will. So why are you complaining again?

[davegk]

Let me be specific. True anyone can use the circles pattern. Put it wherever they please. The problem is that Anyone made the deck and specifically marketed it to cardists. Then Vanda comes along and decides they want to have a little cardistry club with a monthly deck. He then makes circles and markets to cardists. This directly impacts Anyone. I bet you all wouldnt be signing the same tune if he was on planet #4 and someone jumped in with 5-8 before he had a chance to complete 5. Like it or not the business practice at a minimum is unethical.

For what it's worth, I created the circles back design years before Anyone Worldwide playing cards even existed. Also, I printed a prototype of the deck seven months before the HIE circle deck was released (see image). So, perhaps you could say they in fact copied my idea. But you don't see me going around complaining that someone stole my idea and accusing them of plagiarism, theft, or similar. Ironically amusing that you would reference artwork that explicitly defines itself as being copies of other reference material to be the source of my own plagiarism.

[BaconWise]

Geometric patterns in design are a dime a dozen. The same applies to writing a novel: ideas are a dime a dozen. It's the execution that makes a design/idea stand apart from the crowd. Dave and A1WW couldn't be further apart from the execution of their respective decks using concentric circles as a design element. It's a completely different experience. Dave updated the look of the Aladdin backs and cited that deck has his direct inspiration. The similarities end there. He has re-designed the rest of the deck to be completely unique. Again, it's a completely different experience. The Circus deck and the Zero deck do share a striking sunburst pattern but the overall campaigns have nothing else in common. (insert that sentence I like to repeat).

This isn't a Bocopo situation where we have multiple examples of carbon-copy ripoffs. These are examples of very heavily-used graphic elements, used in very different ways. The lack of research in the claims made against Dave only serve to tarnish his reputation. I am glad Dave is standing up for himself and for each unique experience he is creating. I hate to see unfounded, knee-jerk accusations thrown around under the guise of anonymity. This should not have been made public and it's a shame Dave wasn't given the opportunity to privately address the situation.

[Diesel]

So if the logic that it’s ok to copy someone else’s design no matter how recent it is as long as it has a slight variation or is a parody.... Then this deck image should be fine???

[davegk]

So if the logic that it’s ok to copy someone else’s design no matter how recent it is as long as it has a slight variation or is a parody.... Then this deck image should be fine???

There is nothing illegal or unethical about creating parody of any type of artwork. In fact, it's become an art form in and of itself (Saturday Night Live is primarily a collection of parodies & Weird Al Yankovic has created an entire career out of musical parodies). The question really is, does the resulting parody have any value/interest to the public. There is also a lot of gray area around actually producing parody works that could be confused as ripoffs or mistaken for original artwork rather than parody. You'll notice I never actually produced any parody products...I created them as digital experiments for fun.

You are entitled to create a parody of the planets artwork if you'd like but I'd recommend putting more effort into it as what you've presented here looks, well, not so good.

[Diesel]

First off the planets parody is a phone edit example to prove a point. I have too much integrity to rip someone off so obviously. Yes in some cases it is difficult to avoid similarities, but many times designs are near carbon copies. David, as you also are a member of The Card Club, I know you had to have seen Will’s posting of Circus so please don’t insult my intelligence saying you knew nothing about it. That situation aside, we as designers, producers and enthusiasts need to practice simple professional courtesy and ethics by avoiding such controversy. Everyone tore apart Bocopo for their virtual carbon copy designs. If you yourself know that your designs are practically exact replicas I fail to see why you want to risk the same fallout that Bocopo is suffering. Because, really, it’s no different especially with the Repeating Circle design and the Standard. But that’s just my opinion.

[davegk]

First off the planets parody is a phone edit example to prove a point. I have too much integrity to rip someone off so obviously. Yes in some cases it is difficult to avoid similarities, but many times designs are near carbon copies. David, as you also are a member of The Card Club, I know you had to have seen Will’s posting of Circus so please don’t insult my intelligence saying you knew nothing about it. That situation aside, we as designers, producers and enthusiasts need to practice simple professional courtesy and ethics by avoiding such controversy. Everyone tore apart Bocopo for their virtual carbon copy designs. If you yourself know that your designs are practically exact replicas I fail to see why you want to risk the same fallout that Bocopo is suffering. Because, really, it’s no different especially with the Repeating Circle design and the Standard. But that’s just my opinion.

Is The Card Club a Facebook group or something else? I spend very little time on Facebook these days. I had not seen the Circus deck until someone showed it to me recently (long after I had created artwork and put the ZERO decks into production and received them from USPC). I have no reason to lie about seeing some deck that another company has put out to pretend that I'm not intentionally copying another design. I'm very busy and don't have time to keep up with everything that's happening in the playing card arena and I would never intentionally release something that I thought was clearly a ripoff of another designer's work.

[ALR]

So if the logic that it’s ok to copy someone else’s design no matter how recent it is as long as it has a slight variation or is a parody.... Then this deck image should be fine???

There is the tort of "passing off", which may cover parodies and the instance of edition number 5 being rushed into production to make it appear as if it is a continuation of editions 1 to 4 in a series by someone else.

So "Your Anus" might not be a crime but it could be a cause of damages.

[STLBluesNut]

I guess the question is will those opposed to Dave's designs be coming out against the upcoming Hinode deck? Who are these guys ripping off?



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[STLBluesNut]

It would be extra ironic if our UC Diesel was one and the same as deisel_illusions because he is hyping the crap out of a "RIP off" deck....



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[STLBluesNut]

Sorry, 3 posts in a row. Just giving a heads up. Incoming Matrix rip off.



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[brownsl]

It would be extra ironic if our UC Diesel was one and the same as deisel_illusions because he is hyping the crap out of a "RIP off" deck....

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Hmm, very interesting. Even more so in that both Diesels are from Canada.

[hsbc]

He's got receipts

And I feel like if someone were to create a parody deck of your deck, that would be a compliment and an indicator that your deck is famous enough to copy, like when Weird Al parodied Nirvana, Cobain knew they'd made it as a band

Running around this thread accusing people of being "immoral" is crazy - there's been artistic debate about influence vs. plagiarism vs. homage forever, this isn't a new idea

And I'd never seen the backs of the Circus deck until this thread - telling people what they have and haven't seen isn't generally a good look

[Diesel]

It would be extra ironic if our UC Diesel was one and the same as deisel_illusions because he is hyping the crap out of a "RIP off" deck....[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-

cdn.com/20190624/a717d9a56f4b1728ceb885ced3d13b7d.jpg[/img]

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Funny you bring that up. The Hinode (formerly Kamikaze) design was first revealed publicly before both Circus and Zero. And as I even posted on Instagram, I felt that the Zero design was a far enough variation from it that I felt no need to make a fuss about it. So with it actually being around the longest how exactly is it a rip off again?

[Diesel]

And I’m willing to concede that with the popularity of Facebook dwindling, perhaps Dave missed Will’s post so I’ll retract that statement.

[STLBluesNut]

Well, I guess you should be calling out the circus deck and the zero deck for copying the kamikaze deck. Perhaps the kamikaze deck for copying probably 100s of other similar designs prior to that.

Point is that calling everything a copy of something is partially true but vilifying selectively isn't a real good look.

I'm not particularly bent about any of these simple geometric designs being similar to another design. Especially when there could be the same designs dated probably 100s of years back.

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[davegk]

And as I even posted on Instagram, I felt that the Zero design was a far enough variation from it that I felt no need to make a fuss about it.

Wow, you're really something, aren't you? You have no problem coming here and posting in a thread that has NOTHING to do with the zero deck about how horrible of a person I am because I inadvertently created something that bears slight resemblance to another deck that's already out there, while at the same time you are promoting the crap out of the Hinode deck design that is even more closely similar to that exact same deck while being fully aware of the other deck's existence. And somehow in your own twisted internal logic you felt no need to make a fuss about it and it was okay to go ahead and proceed. You sir are the poster child for the term "hypocrite". I'm not wasting another moment of mental energy on you or anything you have to say other than sharing a visualization of your very clearly twisted logic. The zero deck also has a twin tip design whereas the Hinode deck uses the identical sunburst pattern to the Circus deck and even repeats the same color.

Also, I should point out that Emmanuel's Sawdust deck came out like 5 years ago and these are all clearly an extrapolation of that original design, but at least mine had nothing to do with a circus...

[Diesel]

And as I even posted on Instagram, I felt that the Zero design was a far enough variation from it that I felt no need to make a fuss about it.

Wow, you're really something, aren't you? You have no problem coming here and posting in a thread that has NOTHING to do with the zero deck about how horrible of a person I am because I inadvertently created something that bears slight resemblance to another deck that's already out there, while at the same time you are promoting the crap out of the Hinode deck design that is even more closely similar to that exact same deck while being fully aware of the other deck's existence. And somehow in your own twisted internal logic you felt no need to make a fuss about it and it was okay to go ahead and proceed. You sir are the poster child for the term "hypocrite". I'm not wasting another moment of mental energy on you or anything you have to say other than sharing a visualization of your very clearly twisted logic. The zero deck also has a twin tip design whereas the Hinode deck uses the identical sunburst pattern to the Circus deck and even repeats the same color.

Also, I should point out that Emmanuel's Sawdust deck came out like 5 years ago and these are all clearly an extrapolation of that original design, but at least mine had nothing to do with a circus...

sunburst.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 2.57.03 PM.png

So you WANT me to make a fuss that your deck has similarities to the Hinode deck?

[davegk]

And as I even posted on Instagram, I felt that the Zero design was a far enough variation from it that I felt no need to make a fuss about it.

Wow, you're really something, aren't you? You have no problem coming here and posting in a thread that has NOTHING to do with the zero deck about how horrible of a person I am because I inadvertently created something that bears slight resemblance to another deck that's already out there, while at the same time you are promoting the crap out of the Hinode deck design that is even more closely similar to that exact same deck while being fully aware of the other deck's existence. And somehow in your own twisted internal logic you felt no need to make a fuss about it and it was okay to go ahead and proceed. You sir are the poster child for the term "hypocrite". I'm not wasting another moment of mental energy on you or anything you have to say other than sharing a visualization of your very clearly twisted logic. The zero deck also has a twin tip design whereas the Hinode deck uses the identical sunburst pattern to the Circus deck and even repeats the same color.

Also, I should point out that Emmanuel's Sawdust deck came out like 5 years ago and these are all clearly an extrapolation of that original design, but at least mine had nothing to do with a circus...

sunburst.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 2.57.03 PM.png

So you WANT me to make a fuss that your deck has similarities to the Hinode deck?

I want you to use your damn brain...reread my post and go think about it. Then stop insulting me and my work and go do something constructive with your time.

[Diesel]

Perhaps you missed how the Hinode/Kamikaze design was revealed in early 2018? Before both Circus and Zero.

[Azazaaz]

The artistic intention or expression in any of those decks look very different to me.

The "shapes" are like lego bricks. To me, they cannot be taken on their own, they have to come with a story.

Look at these songs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... rogression
They basically all use the same chord progressions / lego bricks. None of them tell the same story though. Like a chord progression, these shapes are building blocks for a bigger picture imo.

That makes me think of how many times I've found myself in front of a piece of art that I initially didn't like only to realize later that I just didn't get it, for I didn't have the story, the reasons for its creation, the mindset of the artist or any relevant piece of information. It's humbling.

Sorry, that is probably not clear at all, I'm too tired for this.

[Decknowledgy]

Zero by Vanda:



Hypnotics by Doc's Playing Cards (UC: @oddsmaker003):



Hinode by @diesel_illusions (UC: @Diesel):



Circus by Will Roya:




So which of you would like to admit that the decks above is ripping off (the idea of) Expert's Exquisite Bolder?





What I'm trying to say is that this who's ripping off who is becoming irrelavant once you start to argue about whose design came out first when this information is justified only by your own selves. Ideas are borrowed, similarities may happen, but is it a COPY? One can never tell, and therefore if you have an issue with this, the easiest way is to NOT BUY the deck that you find too similar with a preceding deck you know of. What's the point of arguing if people could always dig into archives to find earlier decks that have already used the idea and design? I'm not here to call out anyone of you, but just get over it if there's no other evidence to justify another's copying/ripping-off except for stressing that "my design was earlier."

BOCOPO had multiple evidences against them and therefore it's a clear unmistakable act of plagiarism, whereas here, I don't see any of those evidences provided.

[ALR]

Is it too late to say that the Aladdin Dome Back is out of copyright (designed in the 1880’s); it’s my favourite historic deck; Vanda has been more than forthright about attribution; I think Vanda Standard is a respectful homage and update; it also stands on its own merits as a modern design; and although I didn’t back it on KS because the red version was not offered (making postage of a single blue deck to the EU prohibitively expensive), I will definitely get them when they go on general sale ?

I don’t have any real interest in any of the other decks that have been discussed – sorry.

[Harvonsgard]

Hey guys, WWII Japan just called and wants the sunburst pattern back from all off you guys...

Oh no, Ahknaton now sues WWII Japan because he used a similar design more than a millenia ago...

Oh wait, now the sun steps in and sues all of them for copyright infringement because the sunburst is clearly inspired by the sun and it has a patent pending for all sun inspired designs...

Shame on all of you to never ask the sun what it fells about all of you lazy designers, ripping it off... this is sooo unethical and you are really bad hoomans /s

[portcullis]

Hey guys, WWII Japan just called and wants the sunburst pattern back from all off you guys...

What's the worst they're gonna do, invade?

[Harvonsgard]

Hey guys, WWII Japan just called and wants the sunburst pattern back from all off you guys...

What's the worst they're gonna do, invade?

[Diesel]

Lmao! The sun said it’s all good. No need for Armageddon.

[Decknowledgy]

Project canceled.

Hey guys,

Thanks again for your support on another project. Unfortunately this one is also underperforming and is not getting the response I was hoping for. I was really excited about this project as I personally love this particular deck so I'm hoping we'll be back after rethinking the overall campaign a bit.

In the meantime, we have a few other exciting projects in the works that I'll be announcing more details about very soon so stay tuned for more excitement

Thanks! -David