Luna Moon, Helius Sun & Esther Star Playing Cards live on KS

[Conturbia]

What a mess and what a sh***y behavior from Bocopo. I recognized artwork stolen from Lorenzo's Heretic and the box, of course.

[sinjin7]

Since there is no new information about the legitimacy of the tuck's mechanical design, I see no reason to nullify those DOTY votes.

If Bocopo won the award for Best Back Design, or even Deck of the Year, rescinding those awards is pretty black and white and a no-brainer for me because it appears Bocopo clearly violated someone else's copyrighted image. But Bocopo won and placed in awards related to their tuck box design, and I am reasonably sure there was no intellectual property infringement in that area (guru already posted a link to the thread where we previously discussed the (il)legality of the box design). I'm certain Bacardi did not apply for, or receive, a patent for their Bacardi Bombay Sapphire Gin holiday gift box - as I said before, Bacardi is in the business of making drinks, not boxes. Any potential copyright or trademark implications aren't really relevant to a box design. I'm almost as certain that Durero did not apply for, or receive, a patent for their box design for Bacardi, either. The prohibitive legal fees and costs for successfully obtaining such a patent would not justify a design company like Durero from incurring such expenses for a one-off packaging design, even for a client as big as Bacardi.

So the issue is, what must be done if we have a situation where a company has behaved unlawfully in other areas, but did not do anything illegal in the specific categories in which they won awards? Is our outrage and disgust with Bocopo so great that we are willing to wipe out everything even peripherally related to them? Would that be fair and just? In this case I think not. I agree with everything rousselle's post. This is the way I view it: If Bocopo didn't have any issues with ripping off their back design, does their tuck box stand on it's own in winning Best Tuck and placing in the Best Innovation category? Apparently enough people thought it did (for full disclosure, I did not vote for Bocopo's decks in any category), therefor I feel we have to let the awards remain.

Having said that, I am in favor of banning Bocopo from any future consideration in the DotY awards. They are multiple time offenders and show zero remorse in ripping off other people's designs and passing them off as their own. If they are indeed banned, then I think it's perfectly acceptable to put an asterisk next to their "wins" and elevate the next people in line as the de facto winners.

[Decknowledgy]

Wasn't on UC yet when Luna was fulfilling, so didn't know anything about the tuck box situation. Anything said above sounds fair to me, but I especially side with the choice to ban Bocopo from entering DOTY for life from now on due to the current apparent plagiarism of artwork.

[STLBluesNut]

Interesting discussion for sure. I posted some of my views above. What I would like to comment on now is in response to a lifetime ban. Whether you saw it or not, bocopo did release a statement on this issue. Are they using a designer fall guy or telling the truth? Who knows.

What we can judge in the future is if they stick to their stance on copyright issues. If they do turn it around and produce original art, why should those decks that are original be segregated from the pool due to past bad decisions/practices?

I would be willing to bet paychecks that a majority of the people in here have royaly f'd up somewhere in their life. Should that make you ineligible for all future jobs/relationships/car ownership/whatever area you screwed up in?

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[Outsider]

1. Publicly slam Bocopy, rescind the award, and provide them with a new award specially created for them. Something like "Biggest F&*king Loser That Can't Even Draw a Perfect Circle with a Protractor".

2. Leave the award vacant.

I like this. Strip the award leaving the slot vacant, create a new category for that year only, "Biggest Thief" awarded to Bocopy. Like to see them cite their UC accolades when anyone looking will find out just what we think.

But I also like Merle's suggestions. They're very reasonable.

* OJ Simpson is still a Hall of Fame running back for the NFL, even though he was later accused of murder and convicted of felony theft.
* Harvey Weinstein's movies that earned Best Picture are still considered to be Best Pictures, even though he is currently being tried for rape and has been convicted (in the court of public opinion) of being a Huge Gaping Asshole. Alas, he had already been known to be a Huge Gaping Asshole at the time he was funding those movies.
* Mel Gibson is still Best Director for Braveheart, even though he, too, has since been outed as an asshole.

Etc, etc.

Fair point but on the other hand, athletes caught using PEDs are nearly always stripped of all associated accolades, Milli Vanilli gave up their Grammy, etc. That feels like a closer metaphor to this than people whose work stands on its merits although they themselves are criminal assholes.

[guru]

Interesting discussion for sure. I posted some of my views above. What I would like to comment on now is in response to a lifetime ban. Whether you saw it or not, bocopo did release a statement on this issue. Are they using a designer fall guy or telling the truth? Who knows.

What we can judge in the future is if they stick to their stance on copyright issues. If they do turn it around and produce original art, why should those decks that are original be segregated from the pool due to past bad decisions/practices?

I would be willing to bet paychecks that a majority of the people in here have royaly f'd up somewhere in their life. Should that make you ineligible for all future jobs/relationships/car ownership/whatever area you screwed up in?

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

+1

Lifetime ban can affect their livelihoods, they are already getting bad publicity which should teach them a lesson, if not already.

[Decknowledgy]

I won't state who, but I have at least 3 designers and 2 retailers/printers from Instagram PM telling me that this statement is simply just to clear the stains. One designer and the 2 retailers/printers are from Taiwan and know the playing card scene of East Asia very well, and they respectively told me the same thing: Bocopo has been like this for a long time and the plagiarism controversy has well extended to a good amount of their decks. People in that region all know about it and has been waiting for this to blow up. But shamelessly, the owner of Bocopo in a chat group is blaming that this is a conspiracy against their business and playing the victim there. He's still claiming that there's no plagiarism intended when the card community there is all aware of their business practices. Also mind this, the owner of Bocopo is still a 2nd generation billionaire in China who's backed by a huge family business determining to expand the playing card industry internationally (this, also explained by two of the sources I've mentioned).

I've seen the chat log screenshots, but due to privacy, I won't show it here, but all accounts of Bocopo's deeds are verified by three separate sources who are all very well established in the business.

---

Edit:
Maybe not banned for a lifetime, but long enough for them to prove they've done original work for at least 5 decks, hold no more than 2 duplicate accounts on KS, no pre-printed decks using KS as a marketing tool, and no overlapping campaigns at the same time. Only with these requirements will I agree to no lifetime ban.

I don't think this is a difficult request given that all other genuine creators are following these guidelines already.

[BaconWise]

Interesting discussion for sure. I posted some of my views above. What I would like to comment on now is in response to a lifetime ban. Whether you saw it or not, bocopo did release a statement on this issue. Are they using a designer fall guy or telling the truth? Who knows.

What we can judge in the future is if they stick to their stance on copyright issues. If they do turn it around and produce original art, why should those decks that are original be segregated from the pool due to past bad decisions/practices?

I would be willing to bet paychecks that a majority of the people in here have royaly f'd up somewhere in their life. Should that make you ineligible for all future jobs/relationships/car ownership/whatever area you screwed up in?

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

It's pretty clear you are a disgustingly decent human, my friend. After learning more about the situation and past issues, I am finding my sympathetic side taking a back seat. Your points are perfectly valid and I've made my fair share of mistakes. I think the issue for me is that this is not an isolated incident. This is a pattern, from what I have read. The more I read Teddy's responses from the East Asian card community and the more I read past threads and even current ones, the less I find myself sympathetic to Bocopo. I am a very forgiving person, especially if I have been wronged accidentally. Bocopo's behavior seems blatant, which is irredeemable, in my opinion. It's difficult for me to say that because I am easy to forgive and you have to work very hard to lose my trust and respect.

This is a shitty situation and the Mods have a serious decision ahead of them. I think an official vote thread should be presented so more folks from the community can have a chance to be heard as the few of us in this thread hardly represent the entire group of 4K+. If they do stay in the rankings, an asterisk is certainly warranted at the very least.

I've seen the chat log screenshots, but due to privacy, I won't show it here, but all accounts of Bocopo's deeds are verified by three separate sources who are all very well established in the business.

It might be interesting to read them, Teddy. Could you redact the important info? I'm sure a few of us would love to see the conversation!

[LasVegasCards]

If they do turn it around and produce original art, why should those decks that are original be segregated from the pool due to past bad decisions/practices?

I would be willing to bet paychecks that a majority of the people in here have royaly f'd up somewhere in their life. Should that make you ineligible for all future jobs/relationships/car ownership/whatever area you screwed up in?

Because we shouldn't be supporting con artists?



And to your second question if a professional continually misrepresents themselves and their work, steals, lies, and continues to do so they don't get second chances in that profession in the real world. They deliver pizzas or work manual labor. I'm thoroughly confused by your reasoning but to each his own.

[sinjin7]

Look, I get it, everyone has made mistakes, even really bad ones. One mistake shouldn't warrant a lifetime ban. But Bocopo has shown a repeated pattern of shady behavior that has continued on for a while now. Whenever they've said they're sorry, I think they're sorry they got caught, not that they're sorry they're trying to profit off of other's works, especially since they keep continuing their shady practices. Whether their decks are completely original or illegal rip-offs, just the fact that they run KS campaigns for decks that have already been produced show a willful disregard for KS rules and ethics in general. I really doubt that a ban from our DotY contest is going to have any effect at their livelihood. Plus, if they show over the course of the next few years that they have actually turned a new leaf and give respect to other's intellectual properties and clean up their act, then they can always be re-instated.

[Decknowledgy]

For those who think there's a chance Bocopo will redeem themselves and behave, I get the idea that people deserve second chances. But two thoughts: (1) Bocopo is a company, not a person, (2) their practice has been continuous and even when called out by the original artist they ignore them.

I don't even need to show the private message by the Bocopo owner anymore. I only need to share the comment made by Cocorrina & Co Ltd. directly under Bocopo's apology. You be the judge:



Their corresponding email to Bocopo and Bocopo's immediate reaction when this is exposed:




Guess what? Bocopo fell dead silent after this final comment by Cocorrina & Co Ltd.

So once again, you be the judge if Bocopo is truly sorry or not.

[MagikFingerz]

[STLBluesNut]

Again, all good points and counter points. It does seem like a pattern for them. Perhaps, having been sufficiently called out they will change their ways. Perhaps, they are not being truthful about an issue with a designer. Who knows at this point.

Perhaps I did not state it properly, but that's why I suggested watching their future projects and actions and IF they changed their ways and produced original products then I don't see why they wouldn't be eligible.

Any decision on this matter is not going to effect my love for this community. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and are freely able to state them. That is part of what makes this forum and community great. Ultimately, the succuess, or lack thereof, is in the hands of Bocopo and their customers that will vote with their pocket books.

I agree that, while making a statement, the decision here on the awards will likely not have much impact on their future. It will be their actions and the consumers that will decide that.

It will be a big decision for the masters of this forum which, like card design, will most likely not please everyone. However, I feel that no matter the outcome, UC will remain a great place for all with its members still respecting and caring for one another.

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[theCapraAegagrus]

See also:

* OJ Simpson is still a Hall of Fame running back for the NFL, even though he was later accused of murder and convicted of felony theft.
* Harvey Weinstein's movies that earned Best Picture are still considered to be Best Pictures, even though he is currently being tried for rape and has been convicted (in the court of public opinion) of being a Huge Gaping Asshole. Alas, he had already been known to be a Huge Gaping Asshole at the time he was funding those movies.
* Mel Gibson is still Best Director for Braveheart, even though he, too, has since been outed as an asshole.

Etc, etc.

None of those accomplishments were a result of stolen IP, though. If Luna Moon did NOT directly steal their back design, they may have never been mass-produced/distributed AT ALL. The tuck case is not the only defining aspect of their campaign. Idc if the tuck design is borrowed, I care that ANY aspect of the product AT ALL is the result of stolen (illegally copied) ideas. We should set a precedent that we do not support ANY deck or playing card product that isn't produced in good faith.

[theCapraAegagrus]

F&*king perfect!

[Harvonsgard]

Can someone post a TL;DR? Don’t wanna read the whole thread, since it exploded. Would be kind.

[akicer]

Looks like not too many people paying attention to the Meow star deck and some still claim it to be "original". No, no way.


Card back:

a8b1c684c0ee31eddf06320ce590f7f8_original.jpg (114.09 KiB) Viewed 3430 times

IMG_5148.JPG (129.15 KiB) Viewed 3430 times

Ad-card:
they did a recolor and some tiny changes, but all cats, the layout, and a lot details are excatly copied.

111.jpg (79.5 KiB) Viewed 3430 times

222.jpg (70.11 KiB) Viewed 3430 times

[theCapraAegagrus]

Can someone post a TL;DR? Don’t wanna read the whole thread, since it exploded. Would be kind.

No, you lazy pickle tickler. Read it all.

[LasVegasCards]

Can someone post a TL;DR? Don’t wanna read the whole thread, since it exploded. Would be kind.

Bocopo is a bad actor. Some of us are more forgiving than others.

[BaconWise]

Can someone post a TL;DR? Don’t wanna read the whole thread, since it exploded. Would be kind.

Pending infringement claim for the Luna Moon design and tuck case. I guess Kickstarter made an announcement, though the project is well beyond fulfillment. There is some discussion about stripping 2018 DOTY awards fom Bocopo/Kevin Yu due to the claim, or, at the very least, adding an asterisk to the categories they placed in. Lots of different approaches discussed and a lot of damning evidence that this isn't Bocopo's first rodeo when it comes to IP infringement. Not by a long shot. I think at this point mods are considering the next move and whether to make a public announcement on social media, should they decide to clear Bocopo's name off the board, along with a lifetime ban from award consideration.

Some key points of the discussion:

- Get rid of Bocopo. This is a pattern and not some one-off accident
- Give Bocopo another chance. People can improve and be better, so perhaps they will change their ways and stick to a true apology
- What constitutes IP infringement? The "borrow" vs. "stolen" debate and is this situation enough to warrant removing if they were "borrowing" legally
- Keep then on the list with an asterisk and footnote. They still produced a high-quality product and delivered on it
- The bad publicity from the pending KS claim is enough to teach them a lesson
- The KS claim could turn out to be a non-starter. Well, I guess it's already started, so perhaps a non-ender?

Anyone should feel free to add to this summary!

[Harvonsgard]

No, you lazy pickle tickler. Read it all.

Make me, tough guy! If you are kind enough I’ll let you tickle my pickle!

@LasVegasCards and @BaconWise. Thank you very much.

[theCapraAegagrus]

No, you lazy pickle tickler. Read it all.

...If you are kind enough I’ll let you tickle my pickle!

Easy pass...

[rousselle]

Oh? Not a... hard pass?

[theCapraAegagrus]

Oh? Not a... hard pass?

F&*k no.

I chose my words carefully for a reason...

[EndersGame]

Now about a totally different issue, specific to the Luna Moon deck.

Has anyone actually tried to use these cards? I've noticed a problem that USPCC seems to have with their copper metallic ink (which I first documented in this thread in connection with the new Bicycle Stronghold Sapphire deck). In the case of the Luna Moon deck, that's the ink used on the face of the cards for the hearts/diamonds, and on the edges of the cards.

The problem: after a moderate amount of shuffling, the metallic copper ink quickly wears off the borders of the cards, which is the part that cops the brunt of contact during shuffling. But only the copper ink comes off. As you can see from this picture, the dark blue ink on the borders/corners shows minimal sign of wear. So the problem is specific to the metallic copper ink.



You can clearly see that it's just the copper on the edges that wears, and not any other ink, and not on other areas of the cards.

But it gets worse. The ink that rubs off ends up getting deposited as ugly black spots on the other side of the cards. And if they have white borders (which these card backs too), it looks terrible.



It looks like spots of dirt, but I can assure you that it's not dirt from my hands. If you look closely, it even has a slight greenish/copper tinge to the colour of the spots. And we're not talking about a deck that is beaten to death, but how it looks after playing a bunch of card games with it. Here's another picture:



Has anybody else actually used the Luna Moon deck, and noticed this? Or perhaps had similar experiences with other decks that use metallic copper inks?

Here are the decks that I've noticed this issue with so far:
● Bicycle Stronghold Sapphire (picture)
● Bicycle Warrior Horse
● Bicycle Gold
● Bocopo Blue Luna Moon
● Green Gold NOC

[shermjack]

This is also true for the Tally Ho 2019 Special Edition that was Gold/Red (maybe copper ink?)

[EndersGame]

This is also true for the Tally Ho 2019 Special Edition that was Gold/Red (maybe copper ink?)

Is this the Chinese New Year deck pictured at this link?

https://playingcarddecks.com/products/t ... ying-cards

It does seem to have a similar colour ink. Even though the ad copy describes it as "metallic gold", I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same pantone colour.

[shermjack]

The gold/copper seems to rub off much easier...sorry for the poor pic from my phone

[Strag]

That's what you get for opening your decks

[james001a]

That's what you get for opening your decks