Joker and the Thief Original 3 decks reprints

[JuFiN]

I didnt back this campaign at all as the original design never appealed to me that much, but I have backed many of their other decks, Maidens most recently, and they make some really nice decks. I wouldn't trust them when it comes to delivering on limited or special tiers but if you want just a few basic decks I don't really see a reason to avoid them as they make some great decks. Of course their responses to the controversy here are very troubling and will make the bar for how good their decks need to be for me to back that much higher purely due to a dislike of the character of the people running the business. If the deck is good enough though I won't deprive myself of owning a copy just to stick it to em.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I guess I am a bit of a diplomat by training, and I have seen enough cases where it is possible. I would like to hope that improvement is possible, even necessary.

I do not recall having bad experiences with them, even in this campaign as I didn’t back the limited tier.

Would I consider backing their next campaign? Yes. Will I take into consideration what happened in this campaign and their responses here on whether or not to back a future campaign? Yes, of course.

When Jackson issued Flywheels and the mess up on the Federal 52 Second undersized limited tuck was produced, I was getting worried about Jackson. Then he went on an amazing creative tear. Nothing could have made me happier than see him succeed.

They've had bad EB prices, screwed up and overpriced shipping costs, etc. They've had to reboot/refresh their campaigns too many times over what I would call "greed".

The differences between Joker and the Thief and Jackson Robinson are astronomical. That's like comparing Mathieu Dandenault to Nick Lidstrom. JR successfully released like 4 bricks of decks before F52 V2. Joker and Thief have, what, 3 successful designs? And this is their attitude after a campaign for decks that are barely different than something they've already designed? JR is one of the biggest names in playing cards and has never disrespected his customers, to my knowledge, like J&tT have done in this very thread.

Some people may not like the Texas color change or the Legal Tender foil changes, but he didn't call his customers assholes, among other things. JR had/has a reputation built on years of greatness. Did he just hand of some extra Tally-Hos to the Tactical backers for Black Diamond? No. He still made a product similar to what he had promised.

I personally don't think anything they're delivered is that necessary to my collection. The original trilogy of their self-named deck was good (not great). I'm not keeping them around, though, after this s^&*-storm of stupidity.

[akicer]

One thing I have to comment on is their purposed solution.

They keep talking about there are "some" limited box backers are not pleased and they are willing to make some compensation to these backers. Well tbh I think EVERY backer of that tier should be fairly disappointed. If anyone of these backers are happy about what they have got, hmmmm, I wanna be a friend of them and get all their money.

JT replied my previous pm with a solution which is three reprint decks. As I mentioned before, that's better than nothing, but how's that good enough? Three decks worth $30 top. That's why I said this is nothing close to make people satisfied, but that will make people feel a little bit better. I replied their copy-pasted pm and there no response to my new pm again.

Now feels like they are saying "dude this is our solution, take it or not. No money back". No options and no replies to feedback. Which is exactly the same response they had before, "dude, this is our collector's box, take it or not. No money back". I believe it's pretty dawn clear that they care nothing about the bakers, they way they act is consistent throughout the whole campaign. No conversation needed, TAKE IT OR NOT.

[Magic Tapp]

(1) ...Let’s see how this closes out. Hopefully the creators can mend fences with their limited tier backers and move forward...

(2) ...We aren’t perfect and hopefully this was a learning experience for them...

(3) ...Let’s move on and see what comes in the future...

1. It's obvious, to me, that they're not truly interested in this. How do you mend mocking your backers and not giving a f^&* about their opinion of you..?

2. How many learning experiences do they have to go through before getting things right? They've f^&*ed up on almost every campaign and apparently haven't learned anything.

3. Why even bother? Are you seriously considering supporting these jokers and thieves after this most-recent-in-a-long-line-of f^&*-ups?

Pretty much this.

[Magic Tapp]

I know that having dealt with some of the designers that frequent our “little world of this forum” (you know, like Lorenzo, Lotrek, JR, Gio, Alex, Sunish and Montenzi, to name just a few), the bar is set fairly high but the way these people acted is beyond belief.

I should have known better and looked at the warning signs but, alas, I did not. To those who do not know the history of this campaign, let me tell you a little story.

So the first thing that happened is that this particular campaign should have launched at a reasonable time for Australian backers (after, all this is where these [censored] people are from) and at an ok time for those in the Western hemisphere but it was an ungodly hour in Europe (who is going to wake up at 2/3am for these jokers). When this was announced, I asked whether it would be possible to somehow take this into account but nobody bothered to respond. The funniest thing is that when I woke up the following morning, I realised that the launch did not happen despite people being there to pledge. I mean, we have all seen a launch delayed by a minute or two or even 10 or 15 but not to do it at all? And again, the creators did not bother to update their prospective backers until well into the next day, when they matter-of-factly mentioned that it will happen in a week’s time (again, without an apology which is clearly not in their vocabulary).

Their interaction with backers throughout the campaign was patchy at best but they obviously saved the best for last - the BAG. No apology, not even bothering to respond to those who asked question (or rather blatantly ignoring those who had the gall to complain). You all know the rest but that belittling tone and the whole holier-than-thou attitude was absolutely ludicrous.

Now, I am not a vengeful person but I will be damn certain to be there for the launch of their voyage campaign and make sure thatt those poor saps who are backing them know what they are getting into. Should people decide to back anyway, that is clearly up to them but at least they will be warned.

I had mishaps with some of the designers that I mentioned above where they were much less or not at all at fault (and I would not have blamed them if they decided not to help) but almost all of them went above and beyond and provided guidance and assistance (often at an extra cost to them). For that, I will always be grateful and be there for their future campaigns. You can build your reputation for ages and decades but it can disappear in a puff of smoke overnight.

Magic Tapp out!

[ICantShuffle]

I liked all three of their decks so far. I have all of the editions, the EBs were a good price I thought, so I didn't even realize there was a limited tier until I saw this thread. I feel for those of you who pledged for the limited tier and got the bag instead of the box. I also kind of feel like maybe providing support to these guys was a mistake based on their reactions in this thread and elsewhere. I thought it was nice to see high quality deck "producers" outside of the big boys: Dan and Dave, Theory 11, Ellusionist, and Bocopo. Not that I don't like the big firms, but watching a small operation gain market shows that the market is healthy and fertile.

I agree they've got a long way to go before they can be compared to JR. I think only a handful of individuals can be really compared to JR in the playing card industry. JR doesn't just "produce" playing card decks, he also, designs them himself as the artist and, sometimes, crafts components of the decks himself (tucks/cases, etc.). The only other people that do something close are Lotrek, Giovanni, Sunish, Montenzi, et al.

In the case of them being a small firm, who happens to work with suppliers I like (USPCC, Clove St. Press[!!]), I would've thought maybe they bit more off than they could chew-- but, Lotrek and JR are both basically one-man-shows, they still manage to do accomplish large and complex projects. But, then again, I'm not sure why they would wait until the campaign had concluded and were looking to place orders with manufacturers to figure out whether or not they would be able to afford to manufacture the custom box they envisioned and that they had a PLEDGE TIER for. If it meant a delay in delivery, then communicate that with backers and swallow the knot in your throat-- that at least builds brand trust to some degree. Shouldn't they have done some kind of cost analysis or gotten quotes for manufacturing the product in the limited tier and factored that into their funding goal prior to the campaign and adding that pledge tier? Or, have I just been doing the earned value management thing wrong my whole adult life?

I really wanted to like JT playing cards, they seemed enthusiastic about their designs and brand. Looks like that enthusiasm was one-sided. I was even looking forward to the Voyagers campaign, it sounded like a theme I would really like.

[Decknowledgy]

I bought a 4-deck set of the J&T series USPCC edition through JPGames right before this blew up. Frankly, I don't mind I spent the money because their deck designs were constantly decent and I dig it, e.g. Maidens.

But even for that, like what I've said earlier, this would be the last time I purchase their decks since honesty matters most when it comes to consumer relationships. J&T are not even close to the standards of Jackson, Lorenzo, or Gio in terms of their communication with their customers. These people have never disregarded, attacked, ignored, or laid blame when their productions come across difficulties, whereas J&T is just overtly self-appraising and blaming everything and everyone around them. Do remember their own words:

"Our reputation is fine outside of the little world of this forum. We are working on much bigger and greater things. For you, time will reveal." --- J&T

For even designers greater and vastly more productive than J&T on this forum, those designers have never been heard acclaiming themselves in such boastful way and saying that people can't say sh*t about their character and KS campaign. Not to mention they don't even think swapping items with no notice is a theft. To call this forum a "little world" of card designing and discussions? I'd say they've punched the wrong giant(s). Blah blah this and blah blah that, everyone can say they're doing bigger and greater things, even when it's a child, right?

So yeah, good luck racking in support for their next project when clearly there's a full load of hate on them now. They would need that a lot.

[Rez]

Well, there are people on reddit who cite J&T as an example of a botched Kickstarter campaign, there are people who are willing to back their next effort just to be able to comment on it and warn others not to give J&T any money and there are people like me who heard about this dumpster fire of a campaign even without backing any of their decks. Their brand might be dead at this point.

[Joker and the Thief]

Hey everyone,

We’d just like to stop by one more time to say a few words about us, the situation and everything revolving around this reward tier.

1. In regards to the box set. We have genuinely made a mistake and can say that due to the feedback this has been a massive learning curve for us.

2. In regards to our older campaigns, we were simply trying to find our feet. For the 1st and 2nd campaigns, we were fresh out of school at 17 years of age and hitting the ground running. We did more than sufficient research and courses on how to run a successful Kickstarter. Of course there is going to be lessons learned. Kickstarter is an incredibly difficult process and requires a lot of work, planning, and logistics.

3. We have delivered on every project we have ever produced including this one. That is thousands of orders, all delivered successfully.

4. We agree that our communication was more than lacking and the way it unfolded was not handled professionally. For that we do apologise. We trusted that our compromise in regards to delivering a set on time would result in a positive reaction. However, we couldn’t be more wrong.

5. We are not issuing refunds. The reason being USPCC usually overruns our decks on the press and we always end up with more stock than we order. That means more boxes, more cards, more assembly. Which therein equals more cost. There are also exchange rates from $aud to $usd (because we get paid in $aud by Kickstarter) when we have to pay suppliers, we lose money on every transaction just because of the strength of the dollar. There are also almost always other costs that are unexpected and need to be sorted out. Our funds are poured directly into the project and its fulfilment and nothing else. We’re sharing this with you to give you more insight into our situation.

6. We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

7. We’d genuinely like to issue an apology for the way that we reacted here on this forum. And we realise for some our explanations have been more than unsatisfactory. We still do believe that it was unfair to assume that we were on vacation on our backers money and labelled assholes because of it. That was a personal attack and completely unrelated to JT, so naturally it is fair to defend ourselves.

8. The reason we say our reputation is fine beyond the forum is because of how successful we’ve been in delivering projects in the past, this was a 1 time mistake. And it will not happen again. We hope you can see it as that. We’re not trying to scam, disappoint, or offend anyone. We’re just trying to offer an explanation.

9. We realise at this point that we can’t do much else to sway your opinions of us. But this issue is over a box, we delivered on everything else and we are offering something to compensate for our mistake and we apologise to those affected. Again, we’ll reiterate that slander for the sake of slander is not going to help rectify this reward tier or our future campaigns. We’ve learned our lesson and we’re trying to make good on our mistake. Thank you for taking the time to read our response.

[Bradius]

Thanks for the comments. One thing you also might want to consider is to offer a special incentive/discount for those loyal enough to back you on this limited tier to win them back on your next campaign. I know some will not want to take you up on it, but it is something else to consider. Keep in mind that all of them are the ones that put up some big money on the campaign.

[Joker and the Thief]

Thanks for the comments. One thing you also might want to consider is to offer a special incentive/discount for those loyal enough to back you on this limited tier to win them back on your next campaign. I know some will not want to take you up on it, but it is something else to consider. Keep in mind that all of them are the ones that put up some big money on the campaign.

Thanks Bradius, we’ll keep this in mind.

- The Joker and the Thief Team

[hsbc]

Kickstarter is an incredibly difficult process and requires a lot of work, planning, and logistics.

Kickstarter has nothing to do with this though?

We are not issuing refunds... We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

Everyone understands that making cards costs money. The problem is that you promised one thing and delivered another. And now you're offering yet another fix that isn't the original box you offered. The backers who pledged for a box ought to receive either what they paid for (a box) or be offered their money back. (Or both, at this point.) You can't just give them other things they didn't ask for and call it fair - you're deciding for them. Again.

I've seen other playing card creators offer full refunds when decks are damaged or lost in the mail. I'm sure that it sucks massively to issue refunds (for something beyond your control!), but reputable creators and business owners just suck it up and do it. Your company could do the same but won't. Don't get mad at us for that.

The reason we say our reputation is fine beyond the forum is because of how successful we’ve been in delivering projects in the past, this was a 1 time mistake. And it will not happen again. We hope you can see it as that. We’re not trying to scam, disappoint, or offend anyone. We’re just trying to offer an explanation.

For your sake I'd like to think you're right, but I think the playing card community is closer-knit and has a longer memory than you may realize.

Most everyone here wants to see as many creators succeed as possible.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'd really like to appreciate your post, but for me it's too little, too late.

It's like a girlfriend who kisses another guy. In hindsight, you know you f^&*ed up, but you should have thought before you acted.

You may think your brand is in 'good standing'. We'll let the market on your next project determine that. I'm very doubtful of that claim.

[Decknowledgy]

2. In regards to our older campaigns, we were simply trying to find our feet. For the 1st and 2nd campaigns, we were fresh out of school at 17 years of age and hitting the ground running.

4. We agree that our communication was more than lacking and the way it unfolded was not handled professionally. For that we do apologise. We trusted that our compromise in regards to delivering a set on time would result in a positive reaction. However, we couldn’t be more wrong.

8. The reason we say our reputation is fine beyond the forum is because of how successful we’ve been in delivering projects in the past, this was a 1 time mistake. And it will not happen again. We hope you can see it as that. We’re not trying to scam, disappoint, or offend anyone. We’re just trying to offer an explanation.

I'll give you credit for trying to mend your mistakes, and given that you're only in your early 20s that's still friggin young to learn from this experience. But like I've said, before your attitude have drastically changed toward customers, I won't be openly promoting your product and designs for the sake of protecting enthusiasts and newcomers to the card community. I believe you will fully understand this. Change our minds if you really do mean to engage the community sincerely, and probably we'll have a change of heart too.

Better late than nothing, just like this project

[Joker and the Thief]

Hey hsbc,

It does have everything to do with Kickstarter. It is a difficult platform to learn and get right. There are many factors and logistics that go into campaigning. The sheer amount of hours that go into the copy, photo and video content, rewards, planning, answering messages and emails, marketing. It’s not an easy task by any means - totally rewarding and fun experience though! Always super grateful when a project funds!

We’re not mad at anyone (probably the other way round, honestly). We explained what we can offer due to the situation we are in. This is our solution to the problem we are responsible for.

And agreed! We’re a part of that community too and know it well. We slipped in our quality and communication, and we’ll be making sure that never happens again. Lesson learned.

- The Joker and the Thief Team

[Joker and the Thief]

I'd really like to appreciate your post, but for me it's too little, too late.

It's like a girlfriend who kisses another guy. In hindsight, you know you f^&*ed up, but you should have thought before you acted.

You may think your brand is in 'good standing'. We'll let the market on your next project determine that. I'm very doubtful of that claim.

We understand how you feel and what you mean. And hope that we’ve appropriately acknowledged your concerns. This won’t happen again.

- The Joker and the Thief Team

[Joker and the Thief]

2. In regards to our older campaigns, we were simply trying to find our feet. For the 1st and 2nd campaigns, we were fresh out of school at 17 years of age and hitting the ground running.

4. We agree that our communication was more than lacking and the way it unfolded was not handled professionally. For that we do apologise. We trusted that our compromise in regards to delivering a set on time would result in a positive reaction. However, we couldn’t be more wrong.

8. The reason we say our reputation is fine beyond the forum is because of how successful we’ve been in delivering projects in the past, this was a 1 time mistake. And it will not happen again. We hope you can see it as that. We’re not trying to scam, disappoint, or offend anyone. We’re just trying to offer an explanation.

I'll give you credit for trying to mend your mistakes, and given that you're only in your early 20s that's still friggin young to learn from this experience. But like I've said, before your attitude have drastically changed toward customers, I won't be openly promoting your product and designs for the sake of protecting enthusiasts and newcomers to the card community. I believe you will fully understand this. Change our minds if you really do mean to engage the community sincerely, and probably we'll have a change of heart too.

Better late than nothing, just like this project

Thanks for your understanding. It is appreciated. We hear you and will work to do right by everyone now, and in the future with our upcoming work.

(Also apologies for the multiple posts in a row)!

[shermjack]

Hey everyone,

We’d just like to stop by one more time to say a few words about us, the situation and everything revolving around this reward tier.

1. In regards to the box set. We have genuinely made a mistake and can say that due to the feedback this has been a massive learning curve for us.

3. We have delivered on every project we have ever produced including this one. That is thousands of orders, all delivered successfully.

4. We agree that our communication was more than lacking and the way it unfolded was not handled professionally. For that we do apologise. We trusted that our compromise in regards to delivering a set on time would result in a positive reaction. However, we couldn’t be more wrong.

5. We are not issuing refunds. The reason being USPCC usually overruns our decks on the press and we always end up with more stock than we order. That means more boxes, more cards, more assembly. Which therein equals more cost. There are also exchange rates from $aud to $usd (because we get paid in $aud by Kickstarter) when we have to pay suppliers, we lose money on every transaction just because of the strength of the dollar. There are also almost always other costs that are unexpected and need to be sorted out. Our funds are poured directly into the project and its fulfilment and nothing else. We’re sharing this with you to give you more insight into our situation.

6. We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

7. We’d genuinely like to issue an apology for the way that we reacted here on this forum. And we realise for some our explanations have been more than unsatisfactory. We still do believe that it was unfair to assume that we were on vacation on our backers money and labelled assholes because of it. That was a personal attack and completely unrelated to JT, so naturally it is fair to defend ourselves.

9. We realise at this point that we can’t do much else to sway your opinions of us. But this issue is over a box, we delivered on everything else and we are offering something to compensate for our mistake and we apologise to those affected. Again, we’ll reiterate that slander for the sake of slander is not going to help rectify this reward tier or our future campaigns. We’ve learned our lesson and we’re trying to make good on our mistake. Thank you for taking the time to read our response.

Hello J&T,

Glad you were willing to come back and issue a partial apology to try and make up for your previous comments, but I personally still don't think that you have heard everything that has been said to you here on this forum and on your KS comments section.

1. Its good that you admit you made a mistake with your limited box set, but despite the fact that you have delivered all the decks promised in the campaign, you still have not fully delivered on this campaign as there are 60+ backers that did not receive what they pledged and paid for, which is the limited letterpress box.

2. It's nice that you explain where you spent the money raised by this campaign, but that still does not excuse you from not delivering what was promised or offering a refund. Offering substitutes that you decide on (cotton bags or extra decks) without conferring and getting agreement from the backers of the limited box set is still not delivering, its just a compromise that you decided on by yourselves. If you want to be a successful business, you will have to accept situations like this and bite the bullet to keep your customers satisfied, or else they won't be your customers anymore. Though you may have appeased a few backers, I would be pretty sure that most that backed the limited set will be very hesitant to back anything you do in the future, if support you ever again. Again, the best course of action would be to offer a partial refund for the box...to make it even sweeter for those involved, still send them a free deck. I know that this might seem absurd to you, but try and put yourself in their shoes. I am sure you wouldn't be happy if you were on the other end.

3. As for the comment of James going on holiday with the money from the limited sets, OK, I will be a man and admit that it was a little uncalled for and I apologize for the comment, but it was a reaction based out of frustration of a week of silence and non-replies to both backers direct PMs and comments on KS. As I have been man enough to apologize for my snide and unnecessary comment, I hope that you too will be man enough to apologize for your defamatory comment about China and the products it produces. Sure, there are factories that produce cheap stuff with cheap materials and labour, but aren't there those types of factories everywhere in the world? China also produces a lot of really great products that are considered world class, so why generalize about China and vent your frustrations with the factories you were dealing with in such a manner? Totally unnecessary.

In the end, I think there is still much you can do to sway the opinions of this forum and you have already taken the first few steps, but there is still more to take. If you want your business and reputation to grow, I strongly suggest you consider sucking it up and offering partial refunds (for the box only) instead of just nominating sending decks...this would go a long way with your backers and others that are watching from the sidelines. Just sell the extra decks you have to help recoup the loss from the partial refunds, though I know that this may take some time, I am sure you can do it.

I had been a big supporter of yours from your first deck, which I loved, but I am a little bit bitter from this experience and it will take time and effort to get me back. I personally will chalk your actions up to your youth and hope that this experience is truly one that you have learned and will grow from.

[Joker and the Thief]

Hey everyone,

We’d just like to stop by one more time to say a few words about us, the situation and everything revolving around this reward tier.

1. In regards to the box set. We have genuinely made a mistake and can say that due to the feedback this has been a massive learning curve for us.

3. We have delivered on every project we have ever produced including this one. That is thousands of orders, all delivered successfully.

4. We agree that our communication was more than lacking and the way it unfolded was not handled professionally. For that we do apologise. We trusted that our compromise in regards to delivering a set on time would result in a positive reaction. However, we couldn’t be more wrong.

5. We are not issuing refunds. The reason being USPCC usually overruns our decks on the press and we always end up with more stock than we order. That means more boxes, more cards, more assembly. Which therein equals more cost. There are also exchange rates from $aud to $usd (because we get paid in $aud by Kickstarter) when we have to pay suppliers, we lose money on every transaction just because of the strength of the dollar. There are also almost always other costs that are unexpected and need to be sorted out. Our funds are poured directly into the project and its fulfilment and nothing else. We’re sharing this with you to give you more insight into our situation.

6. We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

7. We’d genuinely like to issue an apology for the way that we reacted here on this forum. And we realise for some our explanations have been more than unsatisfactory. We still do believe that it was unfair to assume that we were on vacation on our backers money and labelled assholes because of it. That was a personal attack and completely unrelated to JT, so naturally it is fair to defend ourselves.

9. We realise at this point that we can’t do much else to sway your opinions of us. But this issue is over a box, we delivered on everything else and we are offering something to compensate for our mistake and we apologise to those affected. Again, we’ll reiterate that slander for the sake of slander is not going to help rectify this reward tier or our future campaigns. We’ve learned our lesson and we’re trying to make good on our mistake. Thank you for taking the time to read our response.

Hello J&T,

Glad you were willing to come back and issue a partial apology to try and make up for your previous comments, but I personally still don't think that you have heard everything that has been said to you here on this forum and on your KS comments section.

1. Its good that you admit you made a mistake with your limited box set, but despite the fact that you have delivered all the decks promised in the campaign, you still have not fully delivered on this campaign as there are 60+ backers that did not receive what they pledged and paid for, which is the limited letterpress box.

2. It's nice that you explain where you spent the money raised by this campaign, but that still does not excuse you from not delivering what was promised or offering a refund. Offering substitutes that you decide on (cotton bags or extra decks) without conferring and getting agreement from the backers of the limited box set is still not delivering, its just a compromise that you decided on by yourselves. If you want to be a successful business, you will have to accept situations like this and bite the bullet to keep your customers satisfied, or else they won't be your customers anymore. Though you may have appeased a few backers, I would be pretty sure that most that backed the limited set will be very hesitant to back anything you do in the future, if support you ever again. Again, the best course of action would be to offer a partial refund for the box...to make it even sweeter for those involved, still send them a free deck. I know that this might seem absurd to you, but try and put yourself in their shoes. I am sure you wouldn't be happy if you were on the other end.

3. As for the comment of James going on holiday with the money from the limited sets, OK, I will be a man and admit that it was a little uncalled for and I apologize for the comment, but it was a reaction based out of frustration of a week of silence and non-replies to both backers direct PMs and comments on KS. As I have been man enough to apologize for my snide and unnecessary comment, I hope that you too will be man enough to apologize for your defamatory comment about China and the products it produces. Sure, there are factories that produce cheap stuff with cheap materials and labour, but aren't there those types of factories everywhere in the world? China also produces a lot of really great products that are considered world class, so why generalize about China and vent your frustrations with the factories you were dealing with in such a manner? Totally unnecessary.

In the end, I think there is still much you can do to sway the opinions of this forum and you have already taken the first few steps, but there is still more to take. If you want your business and reputation to grow, I strongly suggest you consider sucking it up and offering partial refunds (for the box only) instead of just nominating sending decks...this would go a long way with your backers and others that are watching from the sidelines. Just sell the extra decks you have to help recoup the loss from the partial refunds, though I know that this may take some time, I am sure you can do it.

I had been a big supporter of yours from your first deck, which I loved, but I am a little bit bitter from this experience and it will take time and effort to get me back. I personally will chalk your actions up to your youth and hope that this experience is truly one that you have learned and will grow from.

Shermjack,

No harm done man. Just so you know we were not generalising about China or being derogatory by any means. We feel as though there is a bit of a miscommunication there. But we apologise for any offence caused. The factories that we were dealing with struggle to produce anything less than 250 units as a minimum order. The one’s that did were not producing boxes of high enough quality. That is why we said what we said. Upon saying that, had we been properly on top of it we may have been able to find someone really great with the right research. We compromised to deliver on time. Again, we understand your disappointment. We are not going out of our way to annoy or frustrate anybody. We believe that the extra decks sent to backers are a satisfactory solution. We’d just like to say thank you for your understanding, it’s appreciated. And don’t get us wrong, of course, we appreciate your support over the last few years.

[PipChick]

9. We realise at this point that we can’t do much else to sway your opinions of us. But this issue is over a box, we delivered on everything else and we are offering something to compensate for our mistake and we apologise to those affected. Again, we’ll reiterate that slander for the sake of slander is not going to help rectify this reward tier or our future campaigns. We’ve learned our lesson and we’re trying to make good on our mistake. Thank you for taking the time to read our response.

I think you're completely missing the point in saying this issue is just over a box - NEWSFLASH: it's not. It only the impetus in revealing your true colors as a producer and how you really feel about even your most loyal and strongest supporting customers.

But since you STILL think that this is over a box, let me break it down for you: what everyone is really upset about is the total disregard and lack of respect you clearly have towards your supports & the community by:

1. not communicating and deliberately choosing to leave out this HUGE detail in product change until it was delivered
2. assuming that a bag would be an acceptable solution when it's NOT AT ALL what backers pledged for
3. ignoring backers comments of concerns FOR A WEEK
4. than when you did decide it was time to address the issues, only offering excuses as to why you made the decisions that you did and handled the situation so poorly as you have instead of facing accountability - even bigotedly slandering an entire country, it's products and it's people in the process (which I should remind you, you've ONLY NOW addressed it after it had been brought up multiple times by multiple people
5. lashing out when confronted
   
   and finally, the cherry on top of it all:
6. the arrogance - so much arrogance of hyper-inflated sense of self-importance in thinking you're sooooo much bigger and better than this issue and the affected backers. This is probably the biggest factor that has lead to the complete and total self-destruction of your reputation and any respect people held for you, your brand & your company.

In regards to refunds and your supposed "solution":

5. We are not issuing refunds. The reason being USPCC usually overruns our decks on the press and we always end up with more stock than we order. That means more boxes, more cards, more assembly. Which therein equals more cost. There are also exchange rates from $aud to $usd (because we get paid in $aud by Kickstarter) when we have to pay suppliers, we lose money on every transaction just because of the strength of the dollar. There are also almost always other costs that are unexpected and need to be sorted out. Our funds are poured directly into the project and its fulfilment and nothing else. We’re sharing this with you to give you more insight into our situation.

not backers' problems. period.

Also, I find it quite amusing when you say:

6. We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

as if this whole attempt at damage control in salvaging whatever reputation you think you still have at this point is really done out of the goodness of your heart because it's "simply the right thing to do"... And as akicer wrote "that's better than nothing, but how's that good enough?" - keeping very much in line with the "take it or leave it" attitude without even seeking any input from backers to even try to work out a resolution that they'd be satisfied with - just what you're willing to offer and nothing more which I also don't find to be good enough.

Just to give you some perspective, I'm a collector that usually only ever backs for one deck or one of each variant of a deck if I reeaaally like it because that's all I want in my collection - but I do however tend to go for those tiers that offer something unique like a box set regardless if it's limited or not because it adds a bit of variety to my collection; so offering me more decks to compensate for the product I invested extra money to get doesn't appeal to me even in the slightest and assuming that it would for others is, in my eyes - AGAIN - more arrogance driving you to make self-serving decisions on behalf of those affected backers disregarding the thoughts they may have on the matter.

At this point, I see no other resolution THAN to offer refunds or partial refunds and if you were not willing to provide that, I'd file for fraud with my credit card company for not receiving what I paid for and let them go after you for the reimbursement - it may be callous, but after all this, I care as little for how much it may cost to you in sorting it out as you did for your backers in making such poor decisions in the first place and creating this mess for yourselves.

Also,

Just so you know we were not generalising about China or being derogatory by any means. We feel as though there is a bit of a miscommunication there. But we apologise for any offence caused.

ummm, yes, you were generalizing AND being derogatory; and stating "we're sorry you're upset" doesn't equate to "we're sorry for our words"...

Anyways, you coming back here for damage control is just too little, too late for me and feels very insincere as you're only doing it now after realizing the extent of the damage you've done to your reputation:

[Joker and the Thief]

PipChick,

We’ve addressed these concerns with respect, and transparency. We understand your frustration, we do. We sincerely apologise for the disappointment caused and we don’t expect you to come back and support us.

This issue is in fact over a box, and our inability to deliver it. In fairness, the rest of the project ran smooth and relatively trouble free AND was delivered on time. There’s no conspiracy here and no intention to do harm. Obviously this is a major lesson learned, and one we don’t intent to repeat.

Cheers,
- The Joker and the Thief Team

[PipChick]

PipChick,

We’ve addressed these concerns with respect, and transparency. We understand your frustration, we do. We sincerely apologise for the disappointment caused and we don’t expect you to come back and support us.

This issue is in fact over a box, and our inability to deliver it. In fairness, the rest of the project ran smooth and relatively trouble free AND was delivered on time. There’s no conspiracy here and no intention to do harm. Obviously this is a major lesson learned, and one we don’t intent to repeat.

Cheers,
- The Joker and the Thief Team

well I guess there you have it folks - this all apparently was just all over a stupid box and nothing more; so no need to bother holding them to higher accountability for their words, actions & handling of the situation since this is just over the box and nothing more - *phew* thank God! And those suckers who were affected are gunna get their extra decks as compensation - so what more could they possibly want?! - they should just deal with it and be happy! Besides, everything else was delivered (AND on time too!) and they're just now addressing concerns PLUS doing so with respect and transparency - what a treat for us! - so stop complaining everyone! They've learned their lesson and the show's over...

...



I think ya gunna need some more duct tape please:

[theCapraAegagrus]

Most of life is wasted trying to get a box... If you know what I mean...

[akicer]

6. We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

maths time guys

so limited box tier backer will possibly get 7 decks ( $9 each), and a cotton bag ($5), that sums to $68.

note that we do not need extra decks, so I will take a 10% discount on the deck, now I have $62

hmm, another $38 refund please? I know my maths is right, dude, you can't beat me on maths


Now, maybe the key magic word is "retail value". If the decks can be sold at $14 per deck, why not you just sell some of your overruns, and issue 14*3 = $42 to the bakers?

ah, my bad, this calc is assuming we buy the four decks we already get at retail price, which we should not, so the price difference would be 4*(14-9) = 20. So actually $62 refund is needed

[STLBluesNut]

Most of life is wasted trying to get a box... If you know what I mean...

Lmao!! Definitely know what you mean. When you end up with a hug instead of the box, it sucks!

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[PipChick]

6. We are offering backers who are unsatisfied, a set of 3 decks of each colour sent to them for free (of course). The retail value of all 7 decks recieved compensates for the price of the set. We know it is better to offer some kind of fix than none, as it was requested by you, the backers and is simply the right thing to do. That is what we can offer to you. We took our time to make a decision, as we were, and still are abroad.

maths time guys

so limited box tier backer will possibly get 7 decks ( $9 each), and a cotton bag ($5), that sums to $68.

note that we do not need extra decks, so I will take a 10% discount on the deck, now I have $62

hmm, another $38 refund please? I know my maths is right, dude, you can't beat me on maths


Now, maybe the key magic word is "retail value". If the decks can be sold at $14 per deck, why not you just sell some of your overruns, and issue 14*3 = $42 to the bakers?

ah, my bad, this calc is assuming we buy the four decks we already get at retail price, which we should not, so the price difference would be 4*(14-9) = 20. So actually $62 refund is needed

[Bradius]

My math on this. Boxed set of 4 decks is AU 136, with free US shipping. Forget for now the EB tier for three decks at $42 AU. The standard tier is $54AU for three decks. So 54/3=$18 AU each, or $72 AU for 4 decks. The three additional decks is $54 AU. Total is (72 + 54) = $126. Plus the bag is sort of close. It should be closer to the EB deal, but is not entirely out of line. However, you should probably do more to compensate for not delivering what was promised if not a full refund.

[akicer]

It should be closer to the EB deal

That's the point, EB for 9 decks is 9USD/deck, where in your calc you are using 13/deck, that's where the difference comes from. People who paid $100 not getting the EB price for people who paid $81 simply not making sense

[MurphysMagic]

These decks are now available at your favorite Murphy's Magic retailer.
see more information on each deck -

Street Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63764" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
White Gold Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63766" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blood Red Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Midnight Blue Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63765" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Merlebird]

These decks are now available at your favorite Murphy's Magic retailer.
see more information on each deck -

Street Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63764" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
White Gold Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63766" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blood Red Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Midnight Blue Edition Playing Cards by Joker and the Thief - https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=63765" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lmaooo the best possible timing