The Darkside Of The Rose Deck, distribution help

[Danimothecardist]

Hello Ladies and Gents

Myself and Peter Gates (my step-father) have created a deck design called "The Darkside Of The Rose", The Artwork was created by Peter around 8 years ago and it was then stored purely to come out for Halloween each year...Until now
I would like to spread the word of Peter's artistic talent by creating a quality deck of playing cards so that it may be enjoyed by many and not just once a year , we are very happy with it and I feel it would get the backing on Kickstarter that we're looking for (as long as I can get the word out enough for people to know it exists & have a decent sale price that is)
and this is where I could really do with some help from the forum, please

I am currently in the process of receiving quotes from multiple Playing card producers, however, two or more of my suppliers may well be US based and I am UK based,
As I'm sure you can imagine, International shipping of 1,000 decks costs a fair amount here in the UK + Import tax and duty into the UK is 22.7% on playing cards....
Not only that, I would then have to predict how much it would cost to distribute 2, 4, 6, 12 & 24 decks while not knowing exactly how many of each option would actually be needed, so I would run the risk of overcharging for the decks or not charging enough and having furious backers waiting for me to get money to dispatch the remaining decks.

so If anybody is able to point me in the right direction for help with worldwide distribution without it impacting the cost of the deck should it be printed in the US, we would really appreciate it!
I feel that we have got so far that I don't want to be stopped by something that others have already worked out or are able to help me with

Thank you for stopping by and reading my post
Hope you enjoy the artwork!

New Gallery with larger images Here >>> https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Slight change

Slight change

[Räpylätassu]

Could we see some of the face cards?

As for distribution, Gamblers Warehouse in Texas is the first name that comes to mind. Also if you were to print by Legends, they can also offer distribution for decks printed by them (I think)

[Danimothecardist]

Hi Rapylatassu (i don't know how to get accents up on my keyboard I'm really sorry),

I'm currently working on face cards, I have requested templates for me to work off but I don't expect to get them so I'm going to start creating some tomorrow, but here is my plan

Simplified classic faces but changed to suit the artwork-
Black backgrounds with the illustrations of all character cards in very pale pink only (like the pink in the artwork)
with the pips for Clubs and spades being the same pale pink
and hearts and Diamonds having classic red pips
I hope I've explained that correctly....I have the image in my head but getting it out in words is a little difficult for me.

Excellent thank you! I will contact Legends tomorrow , I will also contact Gamblers warehouse as I had planned to but had forgotten with everything else I've been thinking about today haha!, I am awaiting quotes from USPCC, EPCC, Cartamundi and awaiting samples from a UK supplier but I've been contacted by Art of play and they have given me a price list for them to distribute for me BUT
I still have to predict how many orders I would get and what the quantities of those orders would be in order to cover the cost in the Kickstarter starter final goal, So far my estimates are coming out between £1,958.80 and £5,500 just for shipping :O

[Räpylätassu]

As a collector I would wish to see 100 % custom courts, which is something I really advice to do. New creators usually have harder time on getting their decks funded and with standard or standardish courts it's going to be extra tough. I have seen many great, 100 % custom decks with top notch artwork having difficult time being funded, just because the creator isn't an established name. Pulling off great looking standard/simplified courts is a really hard thing to do. I would just spend more time on the drawing board and come up with custom court cards. THAT BEING SAID, I do wish to see what you have planned first, we can give proper feedback after that.

It's really just that I have seen a great many deal of unimaginative decks with standard, standardish or simplified courts that hearing just that makes me a bit reserved.

[rousselle]

Regarding fulfillment:

Art of Play also does fulfillment for some projects, so you may want to contact them.

Also, to get a ballpark idea of the sorts of sizes of reward tiers (ie, orders) that people go for, you can look at previous campaigns to see the number of people who back for 1 deck, 2 decks, 3, 4, 6, a brick, etc. This won't be a hundred percent accurate, as people do sometimes "add on" to their initial tier, but this could at least give you a sense of how typical orders tend to go.

All that said, something else to be aware of is that skulls / Dia de la Muertos / skeleton / Halloween decks have appeared in many, many excellent projects over the past few years... and they've appeared in even more numerous terrible projects. Most of the excellent projects have funded, naturally, and most of the terrible ones have not. However, this all means that we are now facing somewhat of a theme-fatigue with regard to decks with skulls and skeletons. This should not discourage you from putting it all out there; an excellent execution of a theme will still overcome theme-fatigue. But, that said, it also means the bar is set higher. If you want to get funded, your design is going to have to offer something a little different, it's going to have to be excellent, and it's going to have to not be lazy. By lazy, I mean: no repeating courts. The Kings should not all look the same, the Queens should not all look the same, etc. The suicide King (ie, the King of Hearts) should be... clever.

Don't be daunted by this; take it as the challenge it is meant to be. Cruise this forum to see what kinds of things resonate and what kinds of things don't. Take all the time you need to nail down this design. You can make an unlimited number of drafts, but you can only launch your first campaign once. We can be a little critical here, but truly, all we want is another amazing deck to add to our collection.

Toward that end, you may also want to familiarize yourself with what's been done before. This doesn't look like you're going for the Dia de la Muertos / Candy Skull look, so I'll avoid listing those for the most part, but Steve Minty did a very effective computer-generated, mono-chromatic study of sugar skulls with his Muertos decks, while Chris Ovdiyenko of "Dead on Paper" went for a dusty, southwestern feel with Calaveras and Midnight Calaveras. Ellusionist's Prohibition series also took a Southwestern desert approach with Disparos. Art of Play released the Revelation deck, with hand-drawn skeletons and (to my eternal chagrin) repeating courts. Art of Play's sister site, DanAndDave.com released Fulton's October deck, which also features skeletons in fun, interesting poses, but also has repeating courts. Ugh. There's the hand-drawn A Deck of Skeletons by Mike Wilcox and the Dia De Las Muertos projects (two of them) by the Edgy Brothers. The Edgy Bros' decks feature sugar skulls on the backs, but it's the skeletons on the court cards that you may find more relevant.

Those are just a few. Again, the idea isn't to intimidate, but to show you the field you're playing in. From the skull you've shown so far, I anticipate that you're going for a completely different look. Like others here, I want to see it!

[PipChick]

To add to the decks rousselle already mentioned in his post above, here are a few other decks of only the sucessfully projects launched this year alone featuring skulls/skeletons:

- Jinto's & Jokers Playing Cards
- ESSENTIAL FABRICA: Anatomical Playing Cards (Relaunched) & Black Trauma Playing Cards
- The Ode to La Catrina: Muertas Edition
- VOODOO Playing Cards
- Bicycle Blackbeard Playing Cards
- El Recuerdo: Muertos Edition & El Recuerdo: Muertos Iluminados Edition
- Bicycle Hidden Playing Cards
- GRAVEYARD Playing Cards
- The Halloween Deck (Relaunched)

Granted, most of the skulls/skeletons are featured in different concepts (pirates, muertos, medical anatomy, halloween, etc.), yet still skulls/skeletons nonetheless. You'll also notice that ALL of them are custom (some to greater extents than others) but still custom; my point being that keeping the courts standard, along with the challenges of creating a skull/skeleton themed deck that'll stand out among the rest on the market, might not be enough to meet funding, or at least not for production with a reputable printer....

To be honest, this was/is only a small snippet of one of my own comments to a completely unrelated deck in another thread (here) just 2 weeks ago in which I referenced the exhausted use of the skull/skeleton theme:

With that said, is this particular deck doing all of that; no, most assuredly not - but, I can appreciate the effort put into this deck to offer something even a tiny bit different from everything else that's flooding the market, on KS and major online retailers. Actually, it's because there's so much of "the same 'ol, same 'ol" in terms of vapid, repetitious concepts & similar design styles that, after awhile, it just feels like it's being regurgitated over and over again until it becomes excessively superfluous and generic to the point of no longer even being taken seriously by consumers (as we've seen time and time again with the use of skeletons and/or skulls - that's not to say it can't be done or won't be ever done again in the future, but just that the whole skeletons/skulls thing has been soooo overdone at this point that it'd be a high hurdle to jump to really offer something unique to the market featuring that particular concept & in a design style that hasn't been beaten to death - no pun intended lol). Anyways, that's where I believe, this deck is a bit different.

and, as of this writing, I still very much hold those same opinions but I don't say any of this to discourage you in your design process - on the contrary; I very much want nothing but utmost success for your deck upon launch - Yet, I also think it's important for you, especially as a first-time creator, to get a greater sense of the market and what potential backers may or may not be looking for in a campaign/deck design. With that said, I'm only one person and cannot possibly speak for all of the KS playing card community so take this opinion as such - just an opinion.

Best of luck and I really look forward to seeing how the design progresses and this deck develops.

[Magistrate1500]

Regarding your question of predicting how many orders you will get to help determine costs:

There is really no way to do that but you can limit the number of decks you produce. If you decide to produce 1500 or 2500 decks (or whatever the number) you can then establish your tiers, the number of decks available in those tiers and the pledge amount of those tiers. You can use that to calculate shipping costs (or at least a rough estimate if you are shipping internationally) to determine your “break even” point for setting your funding goal.

If you don’t limit the production and manage to catch lighting in a bottle and sell thousands upon thousands of decks you will be over your head quickly. It’s a good problem to have but will create a lot of other headaches. I am currently working on my first campaign as well so take my advice with a grain of salt. It’s just what I’ve observed from doing my research.

I know my max shipping costs, max shipping costs at the break even point, and if it doesn’t fund I won’t have lost any money (other than my time and a little money I’ve put into supplies, set up, etc). If I make the funding goal I will at least break even and might make a little money if I go over that. Also, don’t start your first project expecting or even hoping to make money. As first time creators it’s a long shot for us to get funded (short of dropping the funding goal and taking a loss on production). Do it because you have a passion for it and maybe we get lucky. If you pledge for one of mine I’ll pledge for yours!. Good luck!

[Danimothecardist]

Thank you everyone for the great advice, I'm so glad I joined this forum as allows me to fully explain what I'm trying to do and get advice from people who are in or have been in the same boat
I will have a look through all of the Links of cards this evening it will be good to know what has been done and what has worked in the past etc, obviously that won't mean this design will sell even if i make it completely different because In reality, I'm a nobody, so I don't truly expect it to go viral like Chris Ramsay, The Virts or Fontaine decks do but I'm hoping that, if I get a good base down on Instagram, youtube, On here and social media That I'll be able to get backing for 1,012 decks (12 for myself) and then who knows what the future will hold ...

I have looked through Kickstarter before and found that there are usually around 150-300 backers from what I've seen (but i'll keep looking) so that helps me narrow down my predictions Slightly, Also thankyou magistrate1500! I didn't even think of limiting each option to a certain amount, I'll do the maths tomorrow but maybe I could have 200 (ish) decks in each option with all the options adding up to 200 backers? and then Update the Kickstarter page when each limit is reached? or is that a bad idea? lol....I'll happily take on any advice I can get whether it be from seasoned pro's to beginner creators like myself, thankfully I don't really expect to make much money (anymore), my first ever design I did was a plan to make a quick buck..(i might show you one day)...which I quickly got over when I realized how much work goes into a good design and thought, ah well, lets make a stamp on history instead

I'm very concerned my court cards won't hold up compare to the back and box but then again.... you guys can tell me if they just don't cut it

I may ask Peter to draw them, which brings me to 2 more points, Does symmetry actually matter?
For example, if I was to ask Peter to draw portraits of 4 kings, 4 queens, 4 jacks and 4 aces, could they be one way and still gain good backing from everyone? I am aware most Cardists (including myself) value two way backs so that I don't have to worry about having them all the same way to look right in a fan etc....
and my second point-
If I use these Number cards attached below would it be ok to use actual drawings/ paintings with the same background for character cards or would that just look out of place?

New Gallery with larger images Here >>> https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New Number & ace designs

New Number & ace designs

New Number & ace designs

New Number & ace designs

Again Thank you so so much for your advice Ladies and Gents! it's fully appreciated ...I was starting to feel lost in the woods but now I'm just lost with the characters haha!

[Danimothecardist]

I have looked through the 15 or so Decks you guys have suggested and...WOW! I'm rather concerned now but that is some amazing artwork, the time and skill that has gone into all of them is amazing....i really feel like I'm just throwing mine together now ....but i will not be put off, I'm going to push forward and possibly re-create the number cards so that the colours are better suited to the backs etc...the pink is ok but I think it would look better with the skull/ bone colour on the backs and then maybe green pips and numbers for the red suits with textures or shadows worked in maybe...purely as a complete contrast to the norm but keeping with the theme....characters are going to be hell i think so it may be a while before this one is complete.

[Magistrate1500]

I probably wouldn’t limit the decks in a tier and then add to it if it sells out unless you are upfront and VERY CLEAR in the project description of your intent. Some will pledge thinking they will get a limited edition, limited by number of decks that is. If it changes after the fact I can see that upsetting some folks. Decide how many decks you want to print and leave it at that. Just my thought though.

My gut from watching other campaigns and being on this forum for a couple weeks tells me that most people prefer a two way design. I don’t like the few decks I have that are one way, but they are not collectors items either.

Also don’t be too discouraged about doing standard courts. I suspect most of us will want custom courts but if you do standard courts and your price reflects that you will have people take a chance on a first time creator and maybe get lucky. In other words, if you do standard courts don’t expect many people to pledge $15 a deck plus the cost of shipping.

[Danimothecardist]

That's a very fair point, I will definitely take that into consideration as the last thing I want is someone feeling like they're being scammed, I want to be open and upfront with everything as best I can be, I was even considering getting a third party (a well known professional) to oversee the pledge money so that my pledgers know the money is in good hands and not going to vanish like I have seen happen on Kickstarter, granted I've only seen it once but I've only actually known of Kickstarter for 2-3 months when I discovery Chris Ramsay's channel with his "1st" and "Memento Mori" decks.

I had a feeling the market would be like that, Two-way decks do seem to be the norm...... I'm going to spend a day or two planning character cards before I even start them because I don't doubt my imagination...but I do doubt my ability to translate it onto a computer Image haha!

I'm gunna go ahead with my "simplified" character cards as I call them over the next few days and see what I come up with
I have quotes but i'll get numbers up to you guys soon too...will be taking note of backer quantities and 1 deck pledge prices and will average them out and aim for that price or less.

[Danimothecardist]

I'm going to have to get Peter to do some drawings/ paintings of some kind.....I have changed the jokers and I feel that they will tie into the deck much better now....let me know if you agree

New Gallery with larger images Here >>> https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

joker change 1 (again still 2 in the deck and one of the second)

Joker change 2 (just one of these in the deck)

[rousselle]

While I am not into this style of art, I gotta say, I find that card reveal quite funny. I like it rather a lot.

[Eric Lee]

HI, nice to see you getting good feedback on your project here! Not bad from what you've shown so far. This has potential. However,I noticed that there was something you mentioned but not addressed here so far.

You had said, " I am aware most Cardists (including myself) value two way backs so that I don't have to worry about having them all the same way to look right in a fan etc...."

Who is/are the main target audience for your deck? As you had mentioned you are a cardist yourself, you should be creating a deck of cards you yourself would be proud to use and show as a cardist or magician or collector. Chris Ramsay designed his Memento Mori and First (to a lesser extent) to be good for both Magic and Cardistry (I follow him as well).

This will be a challenge to you as a designer as it will be tough to create a deck that's good/great for everyone from magician to cardist to collector.

For cardists, you had already mentioned Virts and Fontaines, other design ideas to consider (straight from the top of my head) are De'vo (on KS), Randy and Mike's Oculus deck, Jaspas and NDO. You can also search KS for cardistry specific decks to get an idea of what makes a Cardistry deck project successful or even cross over for magicians and collectors. Note that the choice of printer is very important to ensure the handling is smooth out of the box.

For Magic: white border backs are a near must along with gaff cards like double backers and blanks. You already are 1 step there with the Joker reveal. Tweaked courts rather than completely custom will be better.

If you haven't already watched them, Chris Ramsay has stated in his videos some the creative process that went into his Memento Mori and First decks. That will be a big help for you to get an idea of what magicians want. Again, handling here is important, but not as much as a cardist.

As for collectors, well you got all the advise you'll need already!

Sorry if I'm overloading you with too much info and factors to consider, but hope this helps. Looking forward to see what else you've got to show us.

[Danimothecardist]

Hello,Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I hadn't thought of the target audience and I'll be honest...i have no idea who my audience is at the moment and I could do with help deciding what to categorize it under :/ I know it sounds stupid but I'm just kind of designing the deck and hoping it turns out well, even if the deck doesn't get funded I'll be printing my own deck just because I can ...that said,

I would like it to be 100% universal so that no matter what you use it for, whether it be just poker, cardistry, magic or collecting it will be a nice deck and make anyone proud to have it among their collection (most people collect a few cards I dare say), but, I Imagine that ticking all of those boxes is going to be hard....I'm scrapping that joker as I feel that its a joke....lol.....but I have been working on the character cards and I'm hoping that the deck is going to POP and compliment peters artwork while bringing it into a modern design style.... I just hope its going to be good enough lol

I have had samples sent out along with price lists......at the moment my two and only options now stand as-

USPCC: premium crushed stock with magic finish but I won't be using the Bicycle logo as they charge around $3-4 per deck just to have that on....
Cartamundi:B9 finish (the same as the Copag 310's)

My price per deck will be around £10GBP...i don't think I can do it cheaper but I'll crunch numbers again.

Here are my Kings, they're by not completely finished so don't worry I haven't gone completely mad...yet lol, they still need 1 sword changing and pips changing
you can probably get the idea from them though, I noticed a load of the designs I have seen previously were skeletal based images or complex patterns etc...so I felt they should have a ghostly feel to them but not be of the same skull & crossbones style.... I hope you like them

I see what you're saying with they Oculus deck, Jaspas deck and lordz by devo...theyre all very simplistic and bright........I have a second design I was already working on.. it's not simplistic but its bright..let me know if you want to see it

New Gallery with larger images Here >>> https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

King of clubs

King of diamonds

King of spades

King of hearts

[Danimothecardist]

Taken a break from character cards for a few days, I'm halfway through them though Here are the number cards I've been working on instead

New Gallery with larger images Here >>> https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Colour alterations to number cards

[PipChick]

maybe it's just my screen, but the shade of green used to outline the AoH, 2oH, 3oH, AoD & 2oD looks a bit off compared to the shade used for the outline all of the other Heart and Diamond pips...

[Danimothecardist]

Thank you I'll check out the codes in photoshop and see if they match, I'm partially colourblind so I can't really tell the diference unless i have the shades overlapping, for example...... i don't know if you can see it in the king of hearts but it has two shades of Pink, I only noticed that when i was working pixel by pixel........& although ive used the colour picker only once & the colour codes are exactly the same, they still have a different shade of pink....I'm praying that when they go to print it will be all exacly the same simply because they come under the same colour code....

[Danimothecardist]

All the face cards are basically done now I'm working on the faces of the character cards as I have Pete working on something else for me ....

New Gallery with larger images Here >>> https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the jack of clubs

[Danimothecardist]

Just thought I would post a Link to all the images I have for the project now

https://dblandscapedesigns0.wixsite.com ... eoftherose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't expect everyone to like them and any feedback will be received with great appreciation!

[Danimothecardist]

Small Update> We've made the decision to have 200 decks be part of a limited edition box set, this box set would consist of a custom-printed magnetic closure gift box, Faux rose petals for display, 2 decks (one signed and numbered out of 100), two magic trick ideas (1 small Skull & 2 small roses) to go with the Gaff cards and an A2 poster signed and number out of 100, I'll update again when i have a display model

[Danimothecardist]

Here you go Ladies and Gents, something very few people have seen yet, I'll be uploading to social media with better images later today but i thought somebody might like to see it first if you want to keep up with my Instagram its: danimothecardist

Low price Concept deck, it does not reflect the final quality and the background detail is low due to a low res' printer.