CIA/KGB Decks Coming Soon to Kickstarter

[dougfrye]

Hi Everybody,
I'm absolutely psyched to announce our upcoming CIA/KGB project on Kickstarter! Here are the particulars as of today:
-Planned launch is in September
-Bicycle branding with USPCC (pending approval)
-Two decks- one CIA, one KGB
-Court card style is cross-hatch
-Court card subjects were chosen based on their effectiveness for their home service
-Collector coins for each deck
-Gilded decks are a stretch goal

I'll post some art. Please let us know what you think!

-Doug

[dougfrye]

Aces!

[dougfrye]

CIA Kings!

[dougfrye]

CIA Queens!

[dougfrye]

CIA Jacks!

[rousselle]

Will the KGB deck feature the names of their historical figures in Russian, or in English?

Will the KGB deck feature traditional Cyrillic indices or Roman? (ie, К, Д, В, and Т or K, Q, J, and A?)

I know that using the Roman/English combination will be more popular with western audiences, but there's something to be said for going authentically Russian/Cyrillic.

[dougfrye]

Thanks for the question! We currently have the names and indices in Roman letters only. I'll ask about using Cyrillic.
What would you think of having one side (top?) with Roman letters and the other side with Cyrillic?

[rousselle]

Thanks for the question! We currently have the names and indices in Roman letters only. I'll ask about using Cyrillic.
What would you think of having one side (top?) with Roman letters and the other side with Cyrillic?

Having Roman letters from one direction and Cyrillic from the other is fascinating, but I don't think it would work. I've never seen it done (gaff cards notwithstanding), which isn't necessarily a knock against it, but it would render the deck confusing/unplayable for those not familiar with one set of letters or the other. It's an interesting idea, but as I try to visualize it, I just don't think it would work. And, it wouldn't be enough to convince me to pick it up. I'd suggest committing to one direction or the other.

[dougfrye]

OK, I appreciate this

[alric]

C'mon man, no picture of the back design or tuck box?

[dougfrye]

Soon, soon...

[dougfrye]

The KGB deck will now feature Cyrillic court card ranks! Many thanks to rouselle for the feedback

[vasta41]

Eagerly awaiting the backs and tuck... Also, can you please make this guy a joker in the KBG deck??

[rousselle]

[dougfrye]

Pay heem, pay that man hees money...
We have really nice Joker sketches. I'll post them in the near future

[PipChick]

The KGB deck will now feature Cyrillic court card ranks! Many thanks to rouselle for the feedback

awesome! I love decks that really commit to the theme - *thumbs up* on that choice to go with the Cyrillic indices on the KGB deck and *2 thumbs up* to Allan for suggesting you to do so

[dougfrye]

Here's the card back...

[dougfrye]

And here's the tuck box...

[vasta41]

I like it! Will the box have color when it's done?

[JacksonRobinson]

Great Start, be careful you will not be able to use the official CIA seal. I can't really tell from the size of the images if you have altered it somehow.

Also you won't be able to use actual people's likenesses as well unless you have permission. Sorry if I'm a wet blanket, I've just "been there done that"

[RichK]

Great Start, be careful you will not be able to use the official CIA seal. I can't really tell from the size of the images if you have altered it somehow.

Also you won't be able to use actual people's likenesses as well unless you have permission. Sorry if I'm a wet blanket, I've just "been there done that"

dougfrye whisked away to a black ops site. Project disappears.

[dougfrye]

Hi Jackson- Thanks for the kind words and the caution. For the CIA deck I'm using public domain images of government officials and the official seal of the CIA, which is in the public domain. My understanding is that the project is simply not allowed to claim endorsement by the US government. I don't want to have you spend too long on this, but could you briefly discuss your experience with this issue?

[JacksonRobinson]

Hi Jackson- Thanks for the kind words and the caution. For the CIA deck I'm using public domain images of government officials and the official seal of the CIA, which is in the public domain. My understanding is that the project is simply not allowed to claim endorsement by the US government. I don't want to have you spend too long on this, but could you briefly discuss your experience with this issue?

Well, just because a picture is in the "public domain" doesn't mean you can use it however you want especially with peoples likenesses even with public figures. Same goes for the CIA seal.

A few examples of my own experience.

Example 1: US currency. All of it is in the public domain HOWEVER they have an exhaustive list of what you can and can't do with. I would just make sure that these portraits have the specific freedom for artists to use them in such a manner.

Example 2: I wanted to make a NASA deck and use both the NASA "Blue Meatball" logo as well as portraits of current and past astronauts. Both the photos and the Logo ARE in the public domain, however, I had to get specific permission IE a license to use the images for something that would be for profit, as my playing cards are for profit. If you are planning on giving away the decks then you most likely have to do the same thing with both the portraits and for sure the CIA Logo.

Example 3: When I did the ARMY deck the ARMY name and Logo is completely wrapped up in licensing and I had to get a specific license from each specific branch.

Again I only say these things as a cautionary tale as it is better to catch things like this before you've taken in $30K for something you were supposed to have a license/permission to use even if it is the public domain.

I'm sure when Sinji7 pops one he might be able to give you a more clearer picture of the legality of such matters. Hope that helps.

[dougfrye]

Thank you very much, Jackson! I'll look into this and see how it impacts the project. Like you said, better out the relatively little bit we are now instead of a bunch later

[sinjin7]

You have two different legal issues going on with your deck: The use of governmental seals/logos and the use of the likeness of individuals. I'll try to keep things simple and start with the CIA seal.

Typically, works (including art) that are created by the federal government at taxpayer expense do not have the same kind of intellectual property protection that individuals can obtain, so they can be considered "public domain" in that sense. This is why you usually don't see copyright or trademark symbols next to the CIA seal. BUT there are specific federal statutes that give such seals (CIA, FBI, presidential, etc..) protections that are very similar to IP rights. So in regard to the CIA seal, federal law prohibits use of the words "Central Intelligence Agency," the initials "CIA," the CIA seal, or any imitation of such words, initials, or seal in connection with any merchandise or commercial activity in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the CIA. So can you get around this? Sure, but it could be tricky. And more importantly, it could fall under subjective interpretation, so why take a chance? Contact the CIA Public Affairs Office for permission and guidance. I know some government offices don't even require you to pay a license fee, you just need to get their permission. Other offices do require you to pay, but it's a pretty nominal fee if you're "small" enough (e.g. your company sales are under a certain amount, or you have under a certain number of employees, or the nature of your company's production methods). Bottom line, don't mess with the Feds.

You have different issues in regards to your drawings of people used in your court cards. People don't have an absolute right to their likeness or image, and there are principles of "Freedom of Speech" that extend to artistic expression. But in general, people do have privacy rights, publicity rights, protections against defamation, and protections against commercial appropriation of their likeness/image. To help illustrate this, let's use this example: If I'm sitting in a public park, you can draw a picture of me or take my photo with your camera to your heart's content, I can't do anything about it or stop you. But without my permission, you can't do the following: You cannot draw or take that same picture through my bedroom window as I'm sitting in my house. You cannot take that drawing of me in the public park and put it on a poster with the words "child molester" underneath and post it all over that park. And you cannot use that picture of me in the public park as the Joker in your deck of cards that you'll sell commercially. Having said all this, the usage of one's likeness can be murky. Aside from the aforementioned First Amendment right, individual States have their own laws in regards to this matter, and they vary widely. For example, in California there are very strong laws governing the use of your likeness (due to so many celebrities working and living here) but not so much in a state like North Dakota. Please check your local State laws, or better yet, just get permission of any of the people used in your court cards that are still alive.

At the end of the day, can you put out this deck without any permission? The short answer is yes. With all due respect, you're too small potatoes for the CIA to take notice of your deck. The same goes for your court characters. The real question is should you put out this deck without any permission? The short answer is absolutely not! You should always respect and follow the law, even if you see others "getting away with it".

[dougfrye]

Thanks, Sinjin! I saw the notice on the CIA website about the non-endorsement condition you cited and plan to include a disclaimer on the project for both the CIA and KGB to the effect that using it and the KGB's seal for the project should in no way be interpreted as conveying endorsement or approval by any government agency.
For the court card images, I took Jody Eklund's projects as a guide. I see he used LPCC, so if USPCC won't allow me to use the images I'll have to consider my options on this. I do see your point on applicable state laws and very much appreciate it
Doug

[sinjin7]

Doug, posting a disclaimer is one way to try to get around the CIA seal issue, but it doesn't always work. The problem with disclaimers is that it can always be argued that they weren't sufficient or that there is some technical defect with the disclaimer. That's what I meant by subjective interpretation. In your opinion, you may feel your disclaimer is thorough and placed properly in your advertising, but the government may have a different opinion about that and still take you to court, where the litigation expenses for your defense will far outweigh any money you could ever make on this KS campaign. That's why I suggested you contact the CIA Public Affairs Office for either permission, or guidance on how to maintain compliance under federal law. Look, you're a small company trying to make a deck of cards, I don't see any significant commercial issues or national security interests with your KS campaign for the government to care in any way, so there's a decent probability the CIA won't take any issue with your deck. But its better to ask and make sure rather than rolling the dice.

The same goes for your court cards. You can print with LPCC, and as long as they get their money, the printers in Taiwan or China do not care about the laws in America and will pretty much do whatever you tell them to do. Neither the printers, or Bill Kalush, will give you any legal cover whatsoever should you get sued. Again, with all due respect, you're small enough where it's unlikely the use of your images on your court cards will ever come to anyone's attention. It may be that if the person you used as the King of Spades even found out about your deck, they may be just amused or even flattered and not have any problem with what you did, or they may conclude (probably correctly) that the cost of bringing a lawsuit would be more expensive than anything they could squeeze out of you in court and let it go. But all it takes is one person (or their estate, if they're dead) to take issue and lawyer up. And just because anyone else who printed with an overseas factory never got any blowback doesn't guarantee that you won't either. It goes without saying you're better off safe than sorry.

[dougfrye]

Thanks, Sinjin. I'll appreciate the thoughts and will contact the CIA's public affairs office for guidance.

[vasta41]

Thanks, Sinjin. I'll appreciate the thoughts and will contact the CIA's public affairs office for guidance.

Good. I'm also hoping you do this because it may incline USPCC to make the deck. Maybe not, but you can at least present a good case.