Luna Moon, Helius Sun & Esther Star Playing Cards live on KS

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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by vasta41 »

badpete69 wrote:Just add-on the equivalent price to your pledge level.. He's probably writing the update right now and all noob pledgers over there are having a coniption hahahaha
Hopefully adding $27 will do the trick since I already paid for shipping...

EDIT: Per KS update:
So How to add on the Helius Sun deck to my current Pledge?

You can only add on the Helius Sun deck as Sets (a Classic Edition & a Deluxe Edition). One set of Helius Sun Playing Cards is 27 dollars.

For United States Backers: When you add on a set, please add $29 USD (27 USD for the set + $2 USD for shipping) to your current pledge. If you want 2 sets, please add 58 USD to your current Pledge. 3 sets: 87 USD; 6 Sets: 174 USD (Will receive a rare Helius Sun Deluxe box uncut sheet) 12 Set: 315 USD (Will receive a rare Helius Sun Deluxe box uncut sheet)

For International Backers, when you add on a set, please add $33 USD ($27 USD for the set + $6 USD for shipping) to your current pledge. If you want 2 sets, please add 66 USD ( 33 USD x 2 ) to your current Pledge. 3 sets: 99 USD; 6 Sets: 198 USD (Including a rare Signed & Numbered Helius Sun Deluxe box uncut sheet) 12 Set: 350 USD (Including a rare Signed & Numbered Helius Sun Deluxe box uncut sheet)
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by badpete69 »

see all is good with the world
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Randomly Here »

I'm not sure that these cards are suitable for play.
If only for amateurs of collections.

The back side of the cards has a change in tone, this allows you to see the difference in the cards.

I think so.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bradius »

This has been one of the crazier campaigns I have backed in awhile (best Kickstarter mess of all time for me was the Fidgit Cube). A hugely popular campaign and a fairly novice Kickstarter creator is not an ideal combination. Thanks to all the others here that have tried to help people in comments that are freaking out.

Hey, Shermjack, do you have the Luna deck in hand? If so, can you share some thoughts about it for the rest of us?
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by guru »

Not to spoil the party here but this is a famous packaging design concept copied from Durero, a Spanish company. They had introduced this creative packaging design in 2010 which I thought was patented.

Image

I was in touch with Durero around 4 months back to take the rights for this design and to introduce it to the playing cards world. It lost steam and now I am seeing it is here already. Good on Bocopo if they were able to get this sorted out with Durero.

That said, it is one of the best creative packaging designs and if you just search for innovative box designs on Google, this comes on the first page and on top. So, their statement that this idea came to us while peeling an orange is not correct. At least ,I can't believe it. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bradius »

Interesting! Thanks for sharing Sunish. Yeah, I hope they got permission to use the design, or this could be a bigger mess. If they did get permission, it is odd that they didn’t recognize them in the campaign.

What I was thinking, is someone should hire a origami expert to help them design a creative box. I remember reading about an engineer that specializes in designing pop up books. Someone like him would be ideal for coming up with a creative new tuck box design.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by montenzi »

If so, this campaign is in trouble. There is no way to use patented art/design in commercial work. ... just very expensive if they don't'have a license :mrgreen:
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

Thought perhaps I'd get a Helius since I missed out on the Luna, but that blue back is so much better than the red one. Maybe it's just the renders, but the Helius just isn't good enough to hook me.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Adonael »

Definitely wasn't sold on the Moon cards, but damn do those Sun cards look so much better, particularly the back but also the faces with the extra bit of colour on them, I'm interested now.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by shermjack »

Bradius wrote:Hey, Shermjack, do you have the Luna deck in hand? If so, can you share some thoughts about it for the rest of us?
Sorry, the deck was available for pre-order, but are not shipped until April along with the KS campaign decks :?
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by sms69x »

guru wrote:Not to spoil the party here but this is a famous packaging design concept copied from Durero, a Spanish company. They had introduced this creative packaging design in 2010 which I thought was patented.

Image

I was in touch with Durero around 4 months back to take the rights for this design and to introduce it to the playing cards world. It lost steam and now I am seeing it is here already. Good on Bocopo if they were able to get this sorted out with Durero.

That said, it is one of the best creative packaging designs and if you just search for innovative box designs on Google, this comes on the first page and on top. So, their statement that this idea came to us while peeling an orange is not correct. At least ,I can't believe it. Your mileage may vary.
Oh Sunish, you realy know how to spoil a party...
I sure hope that they managed to get rights on these, as in their advertisement video they kinda call it their idea...
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by theCapraAegagrus »

These cards just look so good. The special packaging is cool, and adds a great element to pull in more backers, but I really love the overall designs.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by vasta41 »

I'd also like to hear from our resident lawyer about this "patent." (Oh sinjin...) To be there is a noticable difference between a bottle of gin and a deck of cards. But maybe that's not enough of a difference between the case construction?
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by TheGentlemanWake »

hmmm. im already committed on the pledge and I don't want to lose my money if these guys get shut down.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bradius »

Sinjin can’t reply. He is busy right now contacting Durero about a patent lawsuit against Bocopo...
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by sinjin7 »

vasta41 wrote:I'd also like to hear from our resident lawyer about this "patent." (Oh sinjin...) To be there is a noticable difference between a bottle of gin and a deck of cards. But maybe that's not enough of a difference between the case construction?
There things that are eligible to be patented, and there are things that are not. And of the things that may be eligible to be patented, the inventor needs to actually go and obtain the patent, it isn't automatically patented just because it was created. There are also different types of patents, some are stronger and last longer and are harder to qualify for.

In general, while products can obviously be patented, the mere packaging of said products cannot usually be patented. Let me use the Pringles example: When Proctor & Gamble first introduced Pringles in the late 1960's, almost all potato chips were fried or baked and packaged in bags back then. No one ever saw chips in a tube before, and it's one of Pringles' most iconic features. But at the end of the day, a capped cardboard tube is a capped cardboard tube, you can't patent it. Now Pringles was able to patent the manufacturing process by which they created the chip itself which, according to P&G, improved the flavor of the potato chip. But they can't patent a cardboard tube.

The packaging of the Bacardi Bombay Sapphire Gin was conceived by a Spanish company called Durero Packaging, a design company that creates packaging for numerous products. This is basically just a multilayered box with cutouts. However, if either Bacardi or Durero presented the packaging for a patent by claiming the blue color and the multilayered cutout effect is evocative of a Sapphire and thus intrinsic to Bacardi's Bombay Sapphire Gin brand, maybe it could fly with the patent office for a design patent, but probably not an utility patent. Given the costs and complexities, they were probably more likely to go for a trademark instead. In this case, it appears this was done for a one-off limited holiday edition gin, so it's entirely possible no design patent or trademark was ever applied for. I doubt that Bacardi is going to put that much money into a box, they're in the business of making alcoholic beverages, not boxes.

Bottom line is that Bacardi/Durero was first to the market with this design in a commercial context. Looking at the similarities, it's a good bet that Kevin Yu "was inspired" by Durero Packaging, or both Durero and Kevin Yu copied an even prior design. Given the cost and complexity of obtaining patents, most designers of just decorative packaging don't usually even try to get patents. Now if the design is unique enough and will be associated with the product for the long term, then a trademark is probably more appropriate (Apple's sleek, modern packaging is a good example of this). If it is true that either Bacardi or Durero obtained a patent or trademark, then Kevin Yu may have infringed upon Bacardi/Durero's intellectual property rights and they could move forward with a legal action (which would be expensive) to enforce their patent/trademark. If they don't have any such patents or copyrights (or aren't motivated to spend money to stop minor infringements) then obviously Kevin Yu could copy it to his heart's content. And I seriously doubt Kevin Yu has/will attempt to patent his tuck box design, the application fees and attorney's fees alone would be multiple times whatever profit he makes from this KS campaign.

I don't see any likely legal jeopardy for the Luna Moon KS campaign, however it does seem a bit disingenuous for Kevin Yu or Bocopo to say they came up with this design from scratch, it's just too close to Bombay Sapphire Gin. Now if they admit they got their inspiration from Bacardi's special holiday packaging and applied it to a playing card tuck design, then kudos to them for a successful translation.

*Disclainer* This is a very rudimentary discussion of intellectual property law meant for lay persons. A full legal explanation of all the intricacies of patent law is too long and too boring (even more so than what I've already posted) and this post should not be construed as any form of legal advice.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by theCapraAegagrus »

sinjin7 wrote:
vasta41 wrote:I'd also like to hear from our resident lawyer about this "patent." (Oh sinjin...) To be there is a noticable difference between a bottle of gin and a deck of cards. But maybe that's not enough of a difference between the case construction?
There things that are eligible to be patented, and there are things that are not. And of the things that may be eligible to be patented, the inventor needs to actually go and obtain the patent, it isn't automatically patented just because it was created. There are also different types of patents, some are stronger and last longer and are harder to qualify for.

In general, while products can obviously be patented, the mere packaging of said products cannot usually be patented. Let me use the Pringles example: When Proctor & Gamble first introduced Pringles in the late 1960's, almost all potato chips were fried or baked and packaged in bags back then. No one ever saw chips in a tube before, and it's one of Pringles' most iconic features. But at the end of the day, a capped cardboard tube is a capped cardboard tube, you can't patent it. Now Pringles was able to patent the manufacturing process by which they created the chip itself which, according to P&G, improved the flavor of the potato chip. But they can't patent a cardboard tube.

The packaging of the Bacardi Bombay Sapphire Gin was conceived by a Spanish company called Durero Packaging, a design company that creates packaging for numerous products. This is basically just a multilayered box with cutouts. However, if either Bacardi or Durero presented the packaging for a patent by claiming the blue color and the multilayered cutout effect is evocative of a Sapphire and thus intrinsic to Bacardi's Bombay Sapphire Gin brand, maybe it could fly with the patent office for a design patent, but probably not an utility patent. Given the costs and complexities, they were probably more likely to go for a trademark instead. In this case, it appears this was done for a one-off limited holiday edition gin, so it's entirely possible no design patent or trademark was ever applied for. I doubt that Bacardi is going to put that much money into a box, they're in the business of making alcoholic beverages, not boxes.

Bottom line is that Bacardi/Durero was first to the market with this design in a commercial context. Looking at the similarities, it's a good bet that Kevin Yu "was inspired" by Durero Packaging, or both Durero and Kevin Yu copied an even prior design. Given the cost and complexity of obtaining patents, most designers of just decorative packaging don't usually even try to get patents. Now if the design is unique enough and will be associated with the product for the long term, then a trademark is probably more appropriate (Apple's sleek, modern packaging is a good example of this). If it is true that either Bacardi or Durero obtained a patent or trademark, then Kevin Yu may have infringed upon Bacardi/Durero's intellectual property rights and they could move forward with a legal action (which would be expensive) to enforce their patent/trademark. If they don't have any such patents or copyrights (or aren't motivated to spend money to stop minor infringements) then obviously Kevin Yu could copy it to his heart's content. And I seriously doubt Kevin Yu has/will attempt to patent his tuck box design, the application fees and attorney's fees alone would be multiple times whatever profit he makes from this KS campaign.

I don't see any likely legal jeopardy for the Luna Moon KS campaign, however it does seem a bit disingenuous for Kevin Yu or Bocopo to say they came up with this design from scratch, it's just too close to Bombay Sapphire Gin. Now if they admit they got their inspiration from Bacardi's special holiday packaging and applied it to a playing card tuck design, then kudos to them for a successful translation.

*Disclainer* This is a very rudimentary discussion of intellectual property law meant for lay persons. A full legal explanation of all the intricacies of patent law is too long and too boring (even more so than what I've already posted) and this post should not be construed as any form of legal advice.
Aw, man. You don't give any legal advice for free, do you? Typical lawyer...

This is a very good, and informative, post though. Thank you.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bradius »

Thank you Sinjin7 for a very thoughtful reply on this issue. I for one, benefited from you post.

And, given my investment in their campaign, can sleep a little easier tonight.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by guru »

Bradius wrote:Thank you Sinjin7 for a very thoughtful reply on this issue. I for one, benefited from you post.

And, given my investment in their campaign, can sleep a little easier tonight.

I second that. A bookmark worthy post.....Thanks Sinjin7.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by VXD »

Well now, I’ve been looking to get a little more involved in discussions here…..and since I personally spent many years writing and prosecuting our patent (alongside our patent lawyers in the latter stages too), this would appear to be an ideal time to jump in! ;)

Sinjin knows what he’s talking about clearly in this field and hopefully I can compliment this with my recent direct experience.

As Sinjin suggests, the type of patent that is most strong and valuable is a ‘Utility Patent’ which covers the form of construction and which solves a real-world problem. By describing various forms of construction and various produced effects etc, the utility patent can close all the loopholes (if well written!) and can be extremely strong.

The following 3 criteria must be met to obtain a utility patent:

1) Novelty (never before made, in the entire world)
2) Inventive Step or 'Obviousness'
3) Manufacturable - can it actually be made in a physical sense / format

N.B - Nearly all patent applications fail on point 2), as there is an element of subjectivity to it (I.e does the patent office examiner believe that someone else ‘skilled in the art’ would find it ‘obvious’ to combine the existing principal elements and come up with what the applicant is proposing.

A further condition to pass the inventive step is that the end-product SOLVES A PROBLEM that exists in the world.

There is then a further very secret / unofficial criteria (which I worked out in my pitfall-research) to the patenting prosecution process, which feeds into the inventive step criteria – Does the examiner believe that your patent was conceived for the good of the world and not purely for commercial gain or monopoly? If he doesn’t, the examiner will certainly use his subjective discretion and reject the application on the grounds that it is ‘obvious’. Obviousness cannot be proved, merely argued, so if the examiner decides it is ‘obvious’, you can pack up and go home. This is why you also have to be very nice to the examiner(s)! ;)

I’ll use our utility patent (8,777,225), which cost $40 000+ in prosecution and took 3.5 years until final grant, as an example:

Once we had established, through extensive searches, that no one had done this before anywhere in the world (novelty tick), we were able to focus on passing the Inventive Step. For step 2), we successfully argued that a problem existed in the inability to advertise on playing card front faces (where peoples focus actually is in game-play), without affecting the standard ink artwork of standard playing cards. We argued that the medium had to be transparent, so as not to impede the view of or materially change the underlying traditional playing card markings (which we argued where paramount, for card-recognition purposes, during game-play). We were able to argue that the invention was not ‘obvious’, by referencing the timeline of holographics development on security documents etc, but that is far too complicated to go into now. Anyway, I have gone on now a bit. It really takes me back (5+ years)!

In general, 99.9% of patents applied for these days are new combinations of existing technologies (the laser is a good example of a ‘pure’ invention that is in the 0.01% btw). In our case, we combined:

1) standard playing cards
2) security-type holograms and that field of tech.

Hey presto – a novel product is born.

Now coming back to the main focus of the topic – this Bocopo box:

The box clearly fails instantly at step 1). It is not novel. No need to even consider the really difficult step 2) criteria for this one.

Kevin Yu can however legally copy the design (as can I or any of you), assuming it was not patented by Durero / Bacardi. However, no one in the world may now patent a similar design themselves, even if no patent was ever granted on it. This is a key mis-understanding of most people. Once the design and the way it is constructed is in the ‘PUBLIC DOMAIN’, it can no longer ever be considered novel.

FYI - Other notable IP types:

A design patent or ‘registered design’ only protects the exact EXTERNAL appearance of a product. Add a shoelace or two and the rights are overcome. But with a utility patent, endless additional shoelaces would not overcome the patent, as the PURPOSE, USE and CONSTRUCTION of the thing is protected.

A manufacturing process patent gives only limited protection, as if someone can produce the same product by a slightly different manufacturing process, they will not infringe the patent and can therefore go ahead freely.

A trademark is not applicable at all in this context. Trademarks only protect a word or a simple image (such as a logo) but only if written / designed EXACTLY in the way shown.

Hope all that lot helps with peoples understanding of this Bocopo box topic as well as IP matters in general.

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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bruno »

VXD wrote:snip
This.
This is the bookmarkworthyist of all.
Unbiased, no barrow pushing, completely/competently/contextually on top of the issue, incisive, positive and with humour.
And, insofar as the detail that must be applied, satisfyingly brief, from a lay point of view.
Thank you VXD !
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bradius »

Yes. Thank you VXD for a well written explanation of this area of law. I learned a lot and appreciate you sharing some of your vast wealth of knowledge on this topic with the rest of us.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by guru »

Bruno wrote:
VXD wrote:snip
This.
This is the bookmarkworthyist of all.
Unbiased, no barrow pushing, completely/competently/contextually on top of the issue, incisive, positive and with humour.
And, insofar as the detail that must be applied, satisfyingly brief, from a lay point of view.
Thank you VXD !
Yeah Bruno... absolutely agree....this is gold...

Thank you VXD...
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Gonzalo »

Hi there,

I'm about to drop my "One set of Luna Moon playing cards" pledge.

If anyone's interested, please, pm me to agree on a time. MInd that I'm in Spain, so we may live in different time zones.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by portcullis »

sinjin7 wrote:
vasta41 wrote:I'd also like to hear from our resident lawyer about this "patent." (Oh sinjin...) To be there is a noticable difference between a bottle of gin and a deck of cards. But maybe that's not enough of a difference between the case construction?
There things that are eligible to be patented, and there are things that are not. And of the things that may be eligible to be patented, the inventor needs to actually go and obtain the patent, it isn't automatically patented just because it was created. There are also different types of patents, some are stronger and last longer and are harder to qualify for.

In general, while products can obviously be patented, the mere packaging of said products cannot usually be patented. Let me use the Pringles example: When Proctor & Gamble first introduced Pringles in the late 1960's, almost all potato chips were fried or baked and packaged in bags back then. No one ever saw chips in a tube before, and it's one of Pringles' most iconic features. But at the end of the day, a capped cardboard tube is a capped cardboard tube, you can't patent it. Now Pringles was able to patent the manufacturing process by which they created the chip itself which, according to P&G, improved the flavor of the potato chip. But they can't patent a cardboard tube.

The packaging of the Bacardi Bombay Sapphire Gin was conceived by a Spanish company called Durero Packaging, a design company that creates packaging for numerous products. This is basically just a multilayered box with cutouts. However, if either Bacardi or Durero presented the packaging for a patent by claiming the blue color and the multilayered cutout effect is evocative of a Sapphire and thus intrinsic to Bacardi's Bombay Sapphire Gin brand, maybe it could fly with the patent office for a design patent, but probably not an utility patent. Given the costs and complexities, they were probably more likely to go for a trademark instead. In this case, it appears this was done for a one-off limited holiday edition gin, so it's entirely possible no design patent or trademark was ever applied for. I doubt that Bacardi is going to put that much money into a box, they're in the business of making alcoholic beverages, not boxes.

Bottom line is that Bacardi/Durero was first to the market with this design in a commercial context. Looking at the similarities, it's a good bet that Kevin Yu "was inspired" by Durero Packaging, or both Durero and Kevin Yu copied an even prior design. Given the cost and complexity of obtaining patents, most designers of just decorative packaging don't usually even try to get patents. Now if the design is unique enough and will be associated with the product for the long term, then a trademark is probably more appropriate (Apple's sleek, modern packaging is a good example of this). If it is true that either Bacardi or Durero obtained a patent or trademark, then Kevin Yu may have infringed upon Bacardi/Durero's intellectual property rights and they could move forward with a legal action (which would be expensive) to enforce their patent/trademark. If they don't have any such patents or copyrights (or aren't motivated to spend money to stop minor infringements) then obviously Kevin Yu could copy it to his heart's content. And I seriously doubt Kevin Yu has/will attempt to patent his tuck box design, the application fees and attorney's fees alone would be multiple times whatever profit he makes from this KS campaign.

I don't see any likely legal jeopardy for the Luna Moon KS campaign, however it does seem a bit disingenuous for Kevin Yu or Bocopo to say they came up with this design from scratch, it's just too close to Bombay Sapphire Gin. Now if they admit they got their inspiration from Bacardi's special holiday packaging and applied it to a playing card tuck design, then kudos to them for a successful translation.

*Disclainer* This is a very rudimentary discussion of intellectual property law meant for lay persons. A full legal explanation of all the intricacies of patent law is too long and too boring (even more so than what I've already posted) and this post should not be construed as any form of legal advice.
You forgot 2 things: 1) That this view is your own legal opinion and not that of anyone else; and 2) You forgot to mention the "moron in a hurry" test. There really isn't any ground that the average purchaser could not reasonably be confused by the two products: i.e. one is a bottle of alcohol, the other is a deck of playing cards; ergo the items offered for sale are distinct, the goodwill and brand of one trader cannot be affected by another's.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Gonzalo »

Gonzalo wrote:Hi there,

I'm about to drop my "One set of Luna Moon playing cards" pledge.

If anyone's interested, please, pm me to agree on a time. MInd that I'm in Spain, so we may live in different time zones.

Nevermind that. Someone's got it already. Thanks, guys.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by Bradius »

NP. Thanks for checking with us Gonzalo.
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by caniveski »

dropping my pledge also in 25 mins ( 1 x luna set early bird )
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by vasta41 »

There's an EB Deluxe Luna available if you're quick! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/68 ... d-by-uspcc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Luna Moon Playing Cards Printed By USPCC live on KS

Unread post by markjanderson »

One set of Luna Moon decks still available as of right now
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