Maduro Playing Cards (Kings Wild Project)

[vasta41]

Ugh, I DESPISE how the courts and aces are full bleed but the spot cards are not. What the hell was he thinking?? If only there were a place where he could show card enthusiasts some draft designs of future projects so that they can give advise and constructive criticisms on pros and cons of the deck. Oh well, I guess we can just "take it or leave it." Regardless this seems like an amateur mistake for a veteran artist. I'm curious to know his thought process behind this blatant faux pas.

[sinjin7]

Not sure if noticed but there is an image of the 10oS, and a few others, on the page now. It appears as though all spot cards will have an image of a specific cigar with it's title.

Thanks, I somehow missed the spot cards when I checked out this KS. Well, it's officially confirmed then, this deck will not be playable, its going to be an edge reader. I'm trying to come up with card games where it doesn't matter if the location of courts or aces are given away, and I can't come up with anything. Its a shame, really, this is a very attractive deck that is ruined for actual use.

I also thought the silver deck was $14.00 shipped, which is within reason. I didn't check it out because I'm not buying Jackson's decks anymore, but someone informed me it's actually $18.00 per deck shipped to the U.S. If that's the case, then the Maduro deck is definitely overpriced for a custom playing card deck, and waaaaay overpriced for an unplayable deck.

[sms69x]

Not sure if noticed but there is an image of the 10oS, and a few others, on the page now. It appears as though all spot cards will have an image of a specific cigar with it's title.

Thanks, I somehow missed the spot cards when I checked out this KS. Well, it's officially confirmed then, this deck will not be playable, its going to be an edge reader. I'm trying to come up with card games where it doesn't matter if the location of courts or aces are given away, and I can't come up with anything. Its a shame, really, this is a very attractive deck that is ruined for actual use.

I'm quite sure the number cards weren't there in the begining of the campaign. I posted a comment requesting him to show the number cards and I belive he only updated the campaign page after that.

[sms69x]

His last comment regarding deck's playability " I also have learned with experience that anyone that is playing serious enough games where people might be getting an "edge" by looking for marked cards usually are never using my art style playing cards."
I guess that says a lot!

(sorry for the double post)

[theCapraAegagrus]

Idk how much that will affect the play-ability. If it does, much, then that would be too bad because the cigar theme would make them a good choice of deck to use in most houses I play cards.

[Bradius]

I too don’t know how bad it will affect playability for recreational use. I do agree with Jackson that the band is an Essential design element. Perhaps with an inside border, but even that would look bad IMO.

[vasta41]

Simple solution- cut the full-bleed short! He doesn't have to make that band go all the way to the edge. Or he could add a full-bleed band to the spot cards, maybe at a very minimal opacity behind the pips then adjusting the level until it's 100% at the edge. I don't know, I'm not a deck designer. All I know is playability or not, the cards are unaesthetically pleasing, especially in a fan. And for an $18 EPCC deck designed by someone who has created 40+ decks of cards I would expect better.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Honestly I'm all about artist intent. If his intention is to create cards where the spot cards DON'T have bands then so be it. It's the man's creative vision--he's allowed that--especially after 40 projects. It's ultimately up to him to choose what kind of deck he's making. Not every deck is for every body. It's not a 'his way or the highway' scenario--there's freewill here. LOL. No one is being forced to back the project. If you look at some of his previous releases (legal tender USA for instance) each suit has a different color background. Is that eminently playable? Not really. But that deck is brilliant aesthetically in my opinion. Obviously 382 people thus far find the design pleasing enough that the project was backed in about 8 hours.

[sinjin7]

Honestly I'm all about artist intent. If his intention is to create cards where the spot cards DON'T have bands then so be it. It's the man's creative vision--he's allowed that--especially after 40 projects. It's ultimately up to him to choose what kind of deck he's making. Not every deck is for every body. It's not a 'his way or the highway' scenario--there's freewill here. LOL. No one is being forced to back the project. If you look at some of his previous releases (legal tender USA for instance) each suit has a different color background. Is that eminently playable? Not really. But that deck is brilliant aesthetically in my opinion. Obviously 382 people thus far find the design pleasing enough that the project was backed in about 8 hours.

Having a different background color on the faces has no effect on playability. Having bands go full bleed to the edges of only he courts and aces totally affects playability. This is known as edge reading, you will be able to tell approximately where the courts and aces are in a deck simply by looking at the edges of a stack of cards. We had a discussion about this on the Legal Tender thread because Jackson originally wanted to have holographic foil bleed to the edges on only the court cards. Interestingly, he agreed by doing so would make his deck unplayable and agreed to shorten the holo foil strip just short of the edges so the courts wouldn't be given away.

I agree Jackson's artistic intent needs the bands for the theme of his cigar deck. He could've had the bands stop short of the edges like he planned to do with the Legal Tender deck, or if that went against his design aesthetic, then he could've had bands on the spot cards as well, like vasta41 already suggested. Of course Jackson can do whatever he wants, and none of us are forced to back him, all that goes without saying. But many people play card games with their decks because, well, that's the intended purpose of playing cards. On this forum, cardists would like to have good looking face-out fans and clean spreads. It's unfortunate this won't be the case with the Maduro deck.

I don't know about others, but I like cards that offers the most versatility and check the boxes on most of my needs. I want cards to be beautifully collectible, handle like a dream for cardistry/magic, and be practically playable for poker. Especially if it's $18.00+ per deck. Jackson is talented enough to have many fans, so his projects always fund quickly. I just rather see deck designers progress and be more inclusive for the use of their decks. Sadly, on this deck, Jackson has regressed due to his choice to narrow the scope of utility.

[Bradius]

I am not sure where $18 a deck comes from. Mine are $14 for a silver deck. I d have a one cost of $6 added to my domestic order, but all additional are $14 each ($16 international). Honestly, I am seeing a lot in that range. Also, they do have that band added on. I don’t think that adds $2 to the cost, but it does add some cost. Anyway, back it or don’t back it. Your choice. I don’t back every Kickstarter playing card campaign.

[vasta41]

I am not sure where $18 a deck comes from. Mine are $14 for a silver deck. I d have a one cost of $6 added to my domestic order, but all additional are $14 each ($16 international). Honestly, I am seeing a lot in that range. Also, they do have that band added on. I don’t think that adds $2 to the cost, but it does add some cost. Anyway, back it or don’t back it. Your choice. I don’t back every Kickstarter playing card campaign.

I'm not saying the cost is unfathomable. I'm saying that for the cost I would expect the deck to be near perfect. And it nearly is, hence my pledge. But I still don't like everything about it.

Honestly I'm all about artist intent. If his intention is to create cards where the spot cards DON'T have bands then so be it. It's the man's creative vision--he's allowed that--especially after 40 projects. It's ultimately up to him to choose what kind of deck he's making. Not every deck is for every body. It's not a 'his way or the highway' scenario--there's freewill here. LOL. No one is being forced to back the project. If you look at some of his previous releases (legal tender USA for instance) each suit has a different color background. Is that eminently playable? Not really. But that deck is brilliant aesthetically in my opinion. Obviously 382 people thus far find the design pleasing enough that the project was backed in about 8 hours.

I agree with everything you said. But just because he can do whatever he wants doesn't mean he should. And just because it funded quickly doesn't mean it has no questionable aspects. But both of those are VERY obvious statements. So what are we really talking about here? I personally believe he should have been consistent with his bordering. Others do not. The world still turns. For those of you that think I'm picking on JR, please look at many of my previous posts- I'm generally consistent with my distaste for full bleed cards. But even more consistent with my distaste for inconsistency. And this one is so obvious I don't understand.
And as far as the pricing goes, if this were $9 shipped I would say, "that stinks about the inconsistent borders but it's still a great deal!" But at the current price point, I say, "that stinks about the inconsistent borders. For $18 I wish they were consistent."

[Bradius]

Fair enough.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Look I understand the desire for decks that have versatility... but I also don't mind decks that are specialized. Look at the Touch Cardistry decks you couldnt play with these if you wanted to. To a lesser extent the Virtuoso decks are more tailored for cardistry. You COULD play with it i suppose--but why? There are a thousand other decks with far higher readability. You certainly wouldn't do magic with the virts. You'd want something like a Riderback or circleback or classic back. I'm okay with specialization. I wouldn't play with ANY of lotrek's decks. really with any deck that has a foil component. It would be asking for them to be ruined. Guess this is just a long winded way of saying not every playing card deck is for playing despite the irony of the statement. In my opinion there are good all around decks; Superior brand, monarchs, wheels. and then there are specialized decks; Touch, Virts, etc. The Deadman's Deck (which I reviewed recently) is a mind blowingly good concept/gimmick deck. There's a HOLE bored through them, it's not exactly a workhorse deck. It's ok if for this deck Jackson has set his sights on producing a collector's deck. My opinion of course. I hope i don't come across as aggressive! lol. I'm just thorough.

[MagikFingerz]

Look I understand the desire for decks that have versatility... but I also don't mind decks that are specialized. Look at the Touch Cardistry decks you couldnt play with these if you wanted to. To a lesser extent the Virtuoso decks are more tailored for cardistry. You COULD play with it i suppose--but why? There are a thousand other decks with far higher readability. You certainly wouldn't do magic with the virts. You'd want something like a Riderback or circleback or classic back. I'm okay with specialization. I wouldn't play with ANY of lotrek's decks. really with any deck that has a foil component. It would be asking for them to be ruined. Guess this is just a long winded way of saying not every playing card deck is for playing despite the irony of the statement. In my opinion there are good all around decks; Superior brand, monarchs, wheels. and then there are specialized decks; Touch, Virts, etc. The Deadman's Deck (which I reviewed recently) is a mind blowingly good concept/gimmick deck. There's a HOLE bored through them, it's not exactly a workhorse deck. It's ok if for this deck Jackson has set his sights on producing a collector's deck. My opinion of course. I hope i don't come across as aggressive! lol. I'm just thorough.

I don't have a horse in this race (not a backer for several reasons, mostly economic), but if I did, I would side with the critics regarding this issue for the simple fact that the band/playability thing is fairly easy to fix/avoid. Lorenzo's House of the Rising Spade is something I'll make room for in my budget even though I generally dislike one-way courts (or anything else, for that matter) because the whole deck is so well done and fits together thematically. To take one of your examples, you couldn't apply a simple design fix to make the Touch Cardistry deck playable, because it's a "pure" cardistry deck. But this seems like a simple thing to fix, so why not just fix it?

One of the reasons I enjoy collecting decks of cards is that they're (most of them, anyway) works of art that are actually usable in a practical way. If they weren't, I might as well just buy paintings or statues. Sure, there are specialized types of decks out there with less to no playability, but they're niche products. If you CAN make a deck as playable as possible, you SHOULD, in my humble opinion.

[vasta41]

JR and all deck designers, artists, etc. obviously have creative freedom. I feel as though that statement is so obvious it goes without saying. But as Tom eluded to, the media in which JR presents his artwork has precedence and prerequisites. Some of those boundaries can be pushed, some can be broken. The reason that all (or at least most) of us are here is because we take an interest to the vast difference between a deck of Rider Back 808 Bicycle cards and 54-56 blank pieces of paper. And although playing cards are comparatively small, there is enormous room for interpretation. Should a deck have pips? Should a deck have number indices? Should a deck have court cards, aces, be written in English, etc., etc., etc.
I don't like when the back and front border colors of cards don't match. But it didn't stop me from backing Lunatica. I don't like full bleed backs. But it doesn't stop me from owning many Bee decks. I love USPCC. But I still own and love hundreds of decks made by other printers. I like custom drawn courts. But some of my favorite decks have standard courts. I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Maduro is not the first playing card deck that I own (or will soon own) that has features that don't appeal to me. And JR isn't the first artist to create a deck with a characteristic that makes me scratch my head. But the main reason that UC and other playing card forums exist is to split hairs between the gray area I mentioned above and discuss all the minutia that goes into the world of playing cards. I'm getting sick of having to make this point lately but it seems to be forgotten. I personally believe that the ability to unify the borders of this deck is far more easy and makes much more sense than matching the Lunatica fronts and backs, adding borders to all playing card backs, etc., etc., etc.
I have also been adamant about how I think deck designers can charge whatever they want. If people pay then good for them! Why shouldn't they make money? Of all my gripes with JR that has never been one of them, in fact I respect his ability to charge almost twice as much as similar deck designers. But if you bought a brand new Ferrari and there was an obvious or at least noticeable paint blemish, you may wonder why it's there. You may even want the designer (or whoever sold it to you) to know that you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the car and expected to get what you paid for (i.e. a car with no obvious faults). If you bought a used '89 Honda from Joe Schmo down the street for $650 and the same paint blemish existed, you might just keep it to yourself.
This deck was apparently designed and advertised to be playable and while the term "payable" is apparently up for interpretation, I think we can all agree that effort to make the aforementioned change to this deck is minimal and easily possible. Let's play devil's advocate for a second- if JR designed the deck to have non-full-bleed court cards (so that all 54 cards had the same front-facing border color: white), would anyone complain? Would anyone who is defending him on this thread say, "I think JR should have extended the borders of the courts and aces and ONLY the courts and aces."? Maybe... but I think not.
Whether or not you like the full-bleed band, the difference is obvious- a two-year-old could notice. And although I'm a backer I simply wonder why the borders aren't uniform (since that is one of the prerequisite playing card qualities that I feel should not be tampered with as obvious as it appears here) and express my desire for them to be changed. I know my wishes fall on deaf ears here since JR's departure but once again, if I cannot air my grievances about playing cards here on this site then where the hell can I talk about them? Sorry for the long read but I wanted to try and be perfectly clear.

[theCapraAegagrus]

JR and all deck designers, artists, etc. obviously have creative freedom. I feel as though that statement is so obvious it goes without saying. But as Tom eluded to, the media in which JR presents his artwork has precedence and prerequisites. Some of those boundaries can be pushed, some can be broken. The reason that all (or at least most) of us are here is because we take an interest to the vast difference between a deck of Rider Back 808 Bicycle cards and 54-56 blank pieces of paper. And although playing cards are comparatively small, there is enormous room for interpretation. Should a deck have pips? Should a deck have number indices? Should a deck have court cards, aces, be written in English, etc., etc., etc.
I don't like when the back and front border colors of cards don't match. But it didn't stop me from backing Lunatica. I don't like full bleed backs. But it doesn't stop me from owning many Bee decks. I love USPCC. But I still own and love hundreds of decks made by other printers. I like custom drawn courts. But some of my favorite decks have standard courts. I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Maduro is not the first playing card deck that I own (or will soon own) that has features that don't appeal to me. And JR isn't the first artist to create a deck with a characteristic that makes me scratch my head. But the main reason that UC and other playing card forums exist is to split hairs between the gray area I mentioned above and discuss all the minutia that goes into the world of playing cards. I'm getting sick of having to make this point lately but it seems to be forgotten. I personally believe that the ability to unify the borders of this deck is far more easy and makes much more sense than matching the Lunatica fronts and backs, adding borders to all playing card backs, etc., etc., etc.
I have also been adamant about how I think deck designers can charge whatever they want. If people pay then good for them! Why shouldn't they make money? Of all my gripes with JR that has never been one of them, in fact I respect his ability to charge almost twice as much as similar deck designers. But if you bought a brand new Ferrari and there was an obvious or at least noticeable paint blemish, you may wonder why it's there. You may even want the designer (or whoever sold it to you) to know that you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the car and expected to get what you paid for (i.e. a car with no obvious faults). If you bought a used '89 Honda from Joe Schmo down the street for $650 and the same paint blemish existed, you might just keep it to yourself.
This deck was apparently designed and advertised to be playable and while the term "payable" is apparently up for interpretation, I think we can all agree that effort to make the aforementioned change to this deck is minimal and easily possible. Let's play devil's advocate for a second- if JR designed the deck to have non-full-bleed court cards (so that all 54 cards had the same front-facing border color: white), would anyone complain? Would anyone who is defending him on this thread say, "I think JR should have extended the borders of the courts and aces and ONLY the courts and aces."? Maybe... but I think not.
Whether or not you like the full-bleed band, the difference is obvious- a two-year-old could notice. And although I'm a backer I simply wonder why the borders aren't uniform (since that is one of the prerequisite playing card qualities that I feel should not be tampered with as obvious as it appears here) and express my desire for them to be changed. I know my wishes fall on deaf ears here since JR's departure but once again, if I cannot air my grievances about playing cards here on this site then where the hell can I talk about them? Sorry for the long read but I wanted to try and be perfectly clear.

Can you sum this up in a TL;DR? I really want to know what you're saying, but holy hell that is a lot of words. Eh, I'll probably end up reading it during my lunch later...

[vasta41]

Can you sum this up in a TL;DR? I really want to know what you're saying, but holy hell that is a lot of words. Eh, I'll probably end up reading it during my lunch later...

I usually like to be brief but I had to let it out this time.

[Bradius]

Vasta41 and others, point taken. I get it, at least. Lotrek has a full bleed wrap in his Ambassadors deck, but he incorporated it into all of the cards. I am even willing to agree now it could be done artistically in the entire deck and probably would tie the theme better.

Some here however just keep bashing the sh*t out of JR at the mention of his name. It is counterproductive as JR has tuned us out now. You can bash him about that too, but it doesn’t change the fact that now our helpful suggestions to him are received as more mindless bashing, when now we have really helpful advice. That is an unfortunate shame.

In the meantime, this is a very creative deck and I am looking forward to getting it flaws and all. Heck, just to rub some salt, his campaign is doing quite well, thank you very much.

[vasta41]

...it doesn’t change the fact that now our helpful suggestions to him are received as more mindless bashing, when now we have really helpful advice. That is an unfortunate shame.

You're right- it is a shame that he came to this site when everything was rainbows and butterflies but left after too much criticism (some constructive, some not) was given. Sure we can be a very negative and harsh bunch and sure we only make up a very small portion of the playing card community. But his absence here after concerns were raised about some of his projects merit some of the criticism he receives IMO. Now we potentially have some helpful advise and all of it is for not since he is not here to hear it. I personally believe that even if concerns about the full-bleed were mentioned before he launched the product that he would still be defiant to change it but that's neither here nor there. A moot point. I digress.
On the flip side, just because he's not an active member here doesn't mean he deserves to crash and burn. I for one am fine with the fact that most of his campaigns do quite well, this one included. He is obviously a talented artist and a hard worker. He deserves to be doing well for himself.

[theCapraAegagrus]

...it doesn’t change the fact that now our helpful suggestions to him are received as more mindless bashing, when now we have really helpful advice. That is an unfortunate shame.

You're right- it is a shame that he came to this site when everything was rainbows and butterflies but left after too much criticism (some constructive, some not) was given. Sure we can be a very negative and harsh bunch and sure we only make up a very small portion of the playing card community. But his absence here after concerns were raised about some of his projects merit some of the criticism he receives IMO. Now we potentially have some helpful advise and all of it is for not since he is not here to hear it. I personally believe that even if concerns about the full-bleed were mentioned before he launched the product that he would still be defiant to change it but that's neither here nor there. A moot point. I digress.
On the flip side, just because he's not an active member here doesn't mean he deserves to crash and burn. I for one am fine with the fact that most of his campaigns do quite well, this one included. He is obviously a talented artist and a hard worker. He deserves to be doing well for himself.

Let's be honest; this is how business works. When you're small, you're always paying close attention to the customers that you have, looking for feedback on how to improve. Once you're a known commodity, you want to push out products thinking and/or knowing that you're going to have success with the quality that you've built. You want to keep going larger-scale, and to do that you have to compartmentalize, and focus on what you can control the most.

It may suck for some, but it's reality, and JR is still is one of the better creators out there.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Well, looks like he is now offering it up to a vote. So shall we give credit where credit is due?

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maduro 2.jpg (74.76 KiB) Viewed 2731 times

maduro 3.jpg (81.43 KiB) Viewed 2731 times

I prefer A i think

[vasta41]

Well, looks like he is now offering it up to a vote. So shall we give credit where credit is due?

maduro.jpg

You beat me to the punch! I was just about to say that exact same thing. I have to commend Jackson. For me the jury is now out on the "take it or leave it" mentality. This is phenomenal news. I like option C the best:

[Merlebird]

Now, I'm neither a backer nor much of a card player so I have a near-zero number of dogs in this fight, but can somebody more familiar with the dynamics of edge-reading explain whether designs A or C will solve the problem? I would've thought the different-colored bands here would be an issue.

[sms69x]

Now, I'm neither a backer nor much of a card player so I have a near-zero number of dogs in this fight, but can somebody more familiar with the dynamics of edge-reading explain whether designs A or C will solve the problem? I would've thought the different-colored bands here would be an issue.

It will not solve the problem completely, as you'll still be able to detect where the different suits are, but you can't tell if it is an Ace or a spot card. Though with all the cards having the band all the way through, it will make this distinction very hard, unless you have a chunk of cards of the same suit together... Hope this helps!!

[TheGentlemanWake]

To that degree it is now no different than the legal tender deck which has a different backdrop for each suit.

[rousselle]

To that degree it is now no different than the legal tender deck which has a different backdrop for each suit.

Yes, exactly.

It's a little problematic, but not quite as problematic as only calling out courts and aces. Marking a deck for suits is typically far less useful for most card games. (Certainly not all, but who would use a $14 to play Crazy 8's? Other than me and my young boys, that is....)

I didn't think the bleeding marks for courts mattered until I picked up Lee McKensie's (sp?) first Empires deck. The effect was so mind-bogglingly obvious that I vowed to never pick up such a deck again. (Luckily, later editions did not have this terrible issue.)

I'm glad that JR is still listening and responding (somewhat) to his backers. I think there's a lot to like about this deck, and this is a step toward making it even better.

[vasta41]

To that degree it is now no different than the legal tender deck which has a different backdrop for each suit.

Yes, exactly.

It's a little problematic, but not quite as problematic as only calling out courts and aces. Marking a deck for suits is typically far less useful for most card games. (Certainly not all, but who would use a $14 to play Crazy 8's? Other than me and my young boys, that is....)

Wasn't it you that posted a video of your kids playing with a 1st Ed. E Black Ghost deck a while back? If so,

[rousselle]

To that degree it is now no different than the legal tender deck which has a different backdrop for each suit.

Yes, exactly.

It's a little problematic, but not quite as problematic as only calling out courts and aces. Marking a deck for suits is typically far less useful for most card games. (Certainly not all, but who would use a $14 to play Crazy 8's? Other than me and my young boys, that is....)

Wasn't it you that posted a video of your kids playing with a 1st Ed. E Black Ghost deck a while back? If so,

No, that wasn't me. I'm crazy, but not *that* crazy.

I still haven't worked up the nerve to shuffle one of Lotrek's hand-crafted decks, although I'm still planning on it. Some day.

But, my boys and I do have one of Sunish's first decks in our rotation. That is an awesome deck for playing, has great art, and can take the abuse that kids give it. And, the gilding holds up!

[theCapraAegagrus]

To that degree it is now no different than the legal tender deck which has a different backdrop for each suit.

Yes, exactly.

It's a little problematic, but not quite as problematic as only calling out courts and aces. Marking a deck for suits is typically far less useful for most card games. (Certainly not all, but who would use a $14 to play Crazy 8's? Other than me and my young boys, that is....)

Wasn't it you that posted a video of your kids playing with a 1st Ed. E Black Ghost deck a while back? If so,

No, that wasn't me. I'm crazy, but not *that* crazy.

I still haven't worked up the nerve to shuffle one of Lotrek's hand-crafted decks, although I'm still planning on it. Some day.

But, my boys and I do have one of Sunish's first decks in our rotation. That is an awesome deck for playing, has great art, and can take the abuse that kids give it. And, the gilding holds up!

I've played poker with Venexiana Gold, Icons Signature Edition, Liturgy Treasure, and Golden Oath. Liturgy Treasure is the "coolest". Feels great and makes a cool sound.

[Thedissident001]

I’m voting for Option D, the one without bleed to edge to solve all the problems and yet maintain the thematic concerns JR is obviously holding on to