Leonardo MMXVIII | Art Playing Cards now on KS

[badpete69]

Sequel to decks from a few years ago

Old project link can be found here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6548&hilit=leonardo

[sinjin7]

It's astonishing that this joker is putting out another playing card project on Kickstarter after all the lies and scandal from the first campaign. Dent du Liar is one of the most unethical deck designers to ever put out a deck. I'm glad Pierre put a link to his previous project in this thread so if there are any who are considering backing this project because they weren't around for his first project, they can read it and be forewarned.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I will not be backing these for a couple reasons:

1. Without doing actual comparisons they don't look different, at all, from the previous campaign. I feel like I would be repurchasing something that I already own.

2. I was not happy with the way the previous campaign was managed or fulfilled.

[caniveski]

I was tempted but glad I read this first.

[badpete69]

I went back to read the original thread to refresh my memory on what happened with the first project as I remember getting my decks and things were fine... I do agree that the platinum deck was totally mis-represented but in the end, it seems that those who wanted a refund got one. Sinjin i think you were fully compensated right? Maybe his inexperience the first time around made him make rookie mistakes... Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

[vasta41]

Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

Yup: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1722808047/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shermjack]

I went back to read the original thread to refresh my memory on what happened with the first project as I remember getting my decks and things were fine... I do agree that the platinum deck was totally mis-represented but in the end, it seems that those who wanted a refund got one. Sinjin i think you were fully compensated right? Maybe his inexperience the first time around made him make rookie mistakes... Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

Yeah, he did offer refunds, but it was how he went about the Platinum deck ordeal that put a really bad taste in my mouth. I still think he is a Shyster and I would never back any of his projects...especially a remake of one that I still have multiple decks of

[guru]

Interesting read. Thanks badpete69 for sharing the link to the old thread.

Given my love with all things gilded, this comment stood out from the previous thread.

In my ongoing discussions with Lawrence at Legends about materials and print techniques, we realized that gilding was not the optimal way to differentiate the Editions. Also, gilding is not recommended when the backs are to be printed to the edges, which was integral to the design and could not be changed. In the end we achieved our design goals through other means, including unique choices on card stock, color, ink and foil.

I don't think it is correct to say that gilding is not recommended when the backs are to be printed to the edges, and the optimal way to differentiate is also incorrect. Look at the Kickstarter decks that came out in the past 1-2 years.

Also, I don't think Taiwan factory (where both Legends and Expert get their decks printed) has got the capability to do the gilding on the decks. I'd checked with them in 2016 and they'd said they don't offer gilded decks.

Yes, there are decks being offered on Kickstarter being printed from either of the two with limited edition and gilded (uber expensive, of course) but they are being gilded by Gamblers Warehouse. Only MPC & GW are offering gilded decks with very small print run according to my knowledge and then you get what you pay for. It is good some of these limited or signature decks are sold at such a high price that no collector is going to open the deck or else........................


Anyways, I think his new project is a reprint with just a few small tweaks but you may or may not notice the difference because the first version was printed with Legends and this one is with USPCC except the stock used where the difference will stand out, of course. If this deck gets done on USPCC's retail stock or the crushed one, then some may cherish the first edition more than ever. Given it is printed in US, he may even offer a limited edition with gilding later in the campaign and get it executed this time.

[sinjin7]

I went back to read the original thread to refresh my memory on what happened with the first project as I remember getting my decks and things were fine... I do agree that the platinum deck was totally mis-represented but in the end, it seems that those who wanted a refund got one. Sinjin i think you were fully compensated right? Maybe his inexperience the first time around made him make rookie mistakes... Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

To his credit, he did issue me a full refund of the Platinum decks I returned to him. The thing that gets to me the most about this guy is the utter lack of remorse for lying so blatantly about the Platinum edition. If you read the original thread, he actually came back here to UC to defend what he did with the Platinum edition. He basically babbled on about how individual features (such as the uber critical gilding and iridescent finish) aren't important and we shouldn't be caught up in small details like that but to appreciate the project as a whole. And if we didn't like it, he'll give us a refund. This guy makes Jackson Robinson proud. Yes, there are other projects worse than the Leonardo deck in the sense they were outright scams and never delivered anything, but no one is as ruthlessly unethical as this joker.

[sms69x]

To his credit, he did issue me a full refund of the Platinum decks I returned to him. The thing that gets to me the most about this guy is the utter lack of remorse for lying so blatantly about the Platinum edition. If you read the original thread, he actually came back here to UC to defend what he did with the Platinum edition. He basically babbled on about how individual features (such as the uber critical gilding and iridescent finish) aren't important and we shouldn't be caught up in small details like that but to appreciate the project as a whole. And if we didn't like it, he'll give us a refund. This guy makes Jackson Robinson proud. Yes, there are other projects worse than the Leonardo deck in the sense they were outright scams and never delivered anything, but no one is as ruthlessly unethical as this joker.

Exactly this!

And if remembe correctly, he only came upfront regarding the refund after someone mentioned that the deck wasn't gilded at all nor had the iridiscent finish He wasn't man enough to admit he has just ripped his supporters money... So basically this guy is a liar, who will promise whatever he can just to have his money, and then just deliver a very inferior product...

[theCapraAegagrus]

Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

Yup: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1722808047/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can we not do this..?

Joke, or not, for the few decks that Jackson screwed up he has ~30 that are great+.

Dent isn't in the same stratosphere as JR.

[vasta41]

Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

Yup: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1722808047/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can we not do this..?

I don't know, can we?? Clearly I was joking, clearly my comment was either taken that way and/or passed by all but you, so clearly you did want to do this. While Dent and JR are obviously different and JR has had some very successful campaigns I disagree that only "a few" were screwed up. In fact I've kept an ongoing list that I will not post again because I digress. Back on topic....

[theCapraAegagrus]

Anyway all I am saying is I have seen worst project creators than him over the years

Yup: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1722808047/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can we not do this..?

I don't know, can we?? Clearly I was joking, clearly my comment was either taken that way and/or passed by all but you, so clearly you did want to do this. While Dent and JR are obviously different and JR has had some very successful campaigns I disagree that only "a few" were screwed up. In fact I've kept an ongoing list that I will not post again because I digress. Back on topic....

That wasn't transparent, because as your later ramblings admit, you think he's "screwed up more than a few" (even though half of your list is nit-picking and entirely opinionated). And while I am the only one to comment on your provoking post, I am most certainly not the only one that can't fully interpret the implications or tone of what you said. It's emotionless text.

Back on topic, this creator has 0 properly executed campaigns, and this one will likely follow that trend.

[Bradius]

Thanks for the history on the previous campaign. I do have one or two decks from that campaign when I picked up a complete card collection. I didn’t realize this is just a repeat. I will pass on this one. Not gilding a deck he said he would...and then not saying anything. Not good decisions.

[vasta41]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

[TGunitedcardists]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

However, Mana made good on everything in the end. Granted, it was years late, and his biggest mistake was communication. But, he made good on his decks and refunds.

[vasta41]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

However, Mana made good on everything in the end. Granted, it was years late, and his biggest mistake was communication. But, he made good on his decks and refunds.

True, there are different levels of "f ups" but both projects rank high on the list of screwed up campaigns IMO, albeit for different reasons.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

Completely agree.

I'm glad I wasn't effected by the whole Eric Mana scheme. I was able to pick up all of the V1s, V2s, and V3s after they were delivered. The V3s are such nice decks. Very high on my list of favorite cards.

Same here. I really, really wanted to buy these decks on the aftermarket but after I discovered the lack of features on the Platinum deck (or whatever it was called) I haven't come around to buying them. And the artwork was/is great.

[shermjack]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

However, Mana made good on everything in the end. Granted, it was years late, and his biggest mistake was communication. But, he made good on his decks and refunds.

I disagree! Mana did NOT make good on everything in the end as I did not get some of the decks that I pledged for (I forget which ones they were it was so long ago) nor were they signed as they were supposed to be. Eric Mana is another Shyster in my book

[alric]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

However, Mana made good on everything in the end. Granted, it was years late, and his biggest mistake was communication. But, he made good on his decks and refunds.

Let's remember that Mana didn't complete fulfillment out of the goodness of his own heart, sinjin7 had to resort to suing Mana's unmotivated ass in order for him to finally deliver his decks.

For me, the worst thing a designer can do on a Kickstarter project is to promise features to get you to back them, and then after they got your cash after the project ends they don't deliver those features without telling anyone about it. Since the Olympics is going on right now, I'll award medals to my list of worst offenders:

Gold Medal: Jack$on Robinson/Legal Tender - no holographic foil, no regular foil, crappy printer
Silver Medal: Dent du Lion/Leonardo - no gilding, no prismatic finish, no USPCC printing
Bronz Medal: Mythical deck - I can't even remember that asshole's name, he started with a crappy printer and promised to look into a better printer in order to get funded when people complained, then went with an even crappier printer no one ever heard of.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On the large list of people who screwed up KS campaigns (including but not limited to JR ) it's a shame Dent is high on that list because the theme and artwork on these decks are great. But just ask Erik Mana- great artwork and a poorly run campaign will lose you supporters.

However, Mana made good on everything in the end. Granted, it was years late, and his biggest mistake was communication. But, he made good on his decks and refunds.

Let's remember that Mana didn't complete fulfillment out of the goodness of his own heart, sinjin7 had to resort to suing Mana's unmotivated ass in order for him to finally deliver his decks.

For me, the worst thing a designer can do on a Kickstarter project is to promise features to get you to back them, and then after they got your cash after the project ends they don't deliver those features without telling anyone about it. Since the Olympics is going on right now, I'll award medals to my list of worst offenders:

Gold Medal: Jack$on Robinson/Legal Tender - no holographic foil, no regular foil, crappy printer
Silver Medal: Dent du Lion/Leonardo - no gilding, no prismatic finish, no USPCC printing
Bronz Medal: Mythical deck - I can't even remember that asshole's name, he started with a crappy printer and promised to look into a better printer in order to get funded when people complained, then went with an even crappier printer no one ever heard of.

Someone call a whaaambulance.

Jackson Robinson is not the worst offender. Not even close.

Honestly? The way EPCC foils cards, having the stripe on select cards would make them unplayable. The real offense is the lack of seals and that is not in the same discussion as no gilding + no iridescent finish. Not. Even. Close. And the decks I received have no problems with handling. On-par with most other EPCC decks I own.

[alric]

Someone call a whaaambulance.

Jackson Robinson is not the worst offender. Not even close.

UC: Jackson deserves a gold medal.....at sucking!

2PF: You guys can dump on other designers like I do, but leave my precious JR alone!!!

UC: Jackson just makes overpriced crap.

2PF: You can have whatever opinion you want except when it comes to my J-Rob. Every time I hear crap like that, I'm gonna stick up for my BFF!!!

UC: Jackson is an arrogant asshole.....

2PF: Why are you so mean to my Jackie Pooh? This is why the smile on my clown face looks so sad......

UC: Why can't you just stfu about Jackson? You say you don't even buy his decks anymore!

2PF:

I thought it appropriate to borrow a page from sinjin7's famous Cricket speech to Jack$on from back in the day.

Listen up, TwoPieceFeed, that was my medal awards, not yours, you can make up your own. Personally, I DO feel that not putting holographic foil, not putting any foil at all, and lying about where the cards are printed is worse than Dent. You obviously don't. You could've left well enough alone, but noooo, you had to respond with an insult because someone was shitting on your precious Jack$son again. We get it, man, you heart Jack$on. But not everyone does, and for good reason. Just let it go, dude, let it go.

*To the mods, I apologize for this thread hijack, not even Dent deserves this.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Someone call a whaaambulance.

Jackson Robinson is not the worst offender. Not even close.

UC: Jackson deserves a gold medal.....at sucking!

2PF: You guys can dump on other designers like I do, but leave my precious JR alone!!!

UC: Jackson just makes overpriced crap.

2PF: You can have whatever opinion you want except when it comes to my J-Rob. Every time I hear crap like that, I'm gonna stick up for my BFF!!!

UC: Jackson is an arrogant asshole.....

2PF: Why are you so mean to my Jackie Pooh? This is why the smile on my clown face looks so sad......

UC: Why can't you just stfu about Jackson? You say you don't even buy his decks anymore!

2PF:

I thought it appropriate to borrow a page from sinjin7's famous Cricket speech to Jack$on from back in the day.

Listen up, TwoPieceFeed, that was my medal awards, not yours, you can make up your own. Personally, I DO feel that not putting holographic foil, not putting any foil at all, and lying about where the cards are printed is worse than Dent. You obviously don't. You could've left well enough alone, but noooo, you had to respond with an insult because someone was shitting on your precious Jack$son again. We get it, man, you heart Jack$on. But not everyone does, and for good reason. Just let it go, dude, let it go.

*To the mods, I apologize for this thread hijack, not even Dent deserves this.

After the first line of long-winded inflammatory spam notes I just filed this under TL;DR.

Can I borrow your voice when my Dunlop Crybaby battery dies..?

[alric]

After the first line of long-winded inflammatory spam notes I just filed this under TL;DR.

Sure you did, buddy. I'm flattered you quoted my entire comment in your reply.

Getting back to topic (despite 2PF), I find it interesting that Dent created his follow up campaign under a new Kickstarter account. He probably did this so that it would be less likely new backers could see some of the negative comments from his first campaign. Unless Dent has some new marketing tricks up his sleeve, this campaign may come down to the wire whether it funds or not. After the initial spike in pledges at the start of the campaign, you see pledges plateau and if you're not past or near your funding goal after the initial spike, it could be a long, painful crawl upwards towards funding......

[Bruno]

alric is definably/demonstrably/desperately, compromised :-

#conflationary.#misrepresentational.#malicious.#inflamatory.
#demonising.#deflecting.#dishonorable.#hopelesslypathetic.

Therefore disqualifying theirself.

True criticism needs none of this.

UC is in desperate need of balance and reasoning in all its criticism.
This has not been the case for some time.
Do we have to listen to the lynch mob paranoia of the few who conflate and implicate others to their warped inferencing ?
Bruno asks why on gods good earth is this so ?
If Eric Mana, JR and Dent de Lion are this forums worst fears ( their creating commonality here devolved to monstering of the worst kind),
if these three are so vile, well Kim Il Jong and the donald would be axing for their input.
Patently, providently, this is not the case.

[Mike Ratledge]

Guys, enough. Cease & desist and all that jazz.

I purposefully left everything as originally posted. We all have our favorites and our opinions and I am always going to err on the side of open exchange of those opinions.

But - that is enough - for now.

[Bruno]

Thank you Mike.

I wish to engage ....
I wish to engage more ....
I wish to engage more with :-
Artists.
Creators.
Producers.
Or those who wish to be such a one.
Those who simply wish to criticise or offer advice should self criticise first, opinionate later .... but I repeat, it is neccessary to engage with creators and producers first and foremost !
No more shutting the gate on experience and hard work, no more big noteing oneself at the expense of all else, no more misrepresenting of issues cos you long windedly can (sinjin7ofthefakeconcern, you) ....
Above all .... No. More. Monstering.
That's #NOMOREMONSTERING !
Pull your heads in.
Now.
I wish to engage ....
I wish to engage with ....

'kay ?

Artists and Creators, Welcome Aboard the Good Ship UC !

[vasta41]

Thank you Mike.

I wish to engage ....
I wish to engage more ....
I wish to engage more with :-
Artists.
Creators.
Producers.
Or those who wish to be such a one.
Those who simply wish to criticise or offer advice should self criticise first, opinionate later .... but I repeat, it is neccessary to engage with creators and producers first and foremost !
No more shutting the gate on experience and hard work, no more big noteing oneself at the expense of all else, no more misrepresenting of issues cos you long windedly can (sinjin7ofthefakeconcern, you) ....
Above all .... No. More. Monstering.
That's #NOMOREMONSTERING !
Pull your heads in.
Now.
I wish to engage ....
I wish to engage with ....

'kay ?

Artists and Creators, Welcome Aboard the Good Ship UC !

Hey, Bruno- there's a forum for that: viewforum.php?f=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nevertheless this site is called unitedcardists. I think I speak for almost everyone here that if you don't like our (i.e. non-deck creators) opinions, you can leave! You are extremely lucky that this site has some pretty lenient mods or you'd have been gone a long time ago.
The fact is that this community is an amazing source, not only to discover new playing cards but also to aid fellow cardists on deals, purchasing info, and deck designer info. I know this site has clued me in to some great campaigns I wouldn't have known about otherwise. But it's also helped me avoid potential disasters. Warning people about Dent's previous campaign should not be frowned upon. On the contrary it should be considered words to the wise. People helping people- nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately not every deck designer is as present here as we'd like so we're left with opinions and assumptions on what we think they're thinking, and we all know what happens when we assume. Some people get a little to testy about the speculation and when that happens those people should take a deep breath and remind themselves that this is the internet and this is a public forum.

Sorry Mike et. al., had to be said.

[Bruno]

Very good ....
I deem monstering out of order.
How about you ?
Yes ?
No ?

If #brunobashing and #overtdivisiveness be your thing, where does your credibility get traction ?

We don't engage by choice, let us keep it that way ....
But answer the question, do ....

[Bradius]

Okay. I appreciate all of the comments. I think the problem with this thread was not the dialog about Dent. It sounds like that was fairly productive and helpful. That said, it veered off topic onto two other creators and one in particular who shall not be named.

I think Bruno has a good point about needing to make an effort to be a reasonable place for creators to seek input without being bashed to death. Vasta has a point too that we need to be able to be critical. I think the problem is that we sometimes spin back on old issues that are already well-debated and further rehash does not move the dialog further. It also makes this place toxic for some.

All that said, I like the frank discussion and letting those of us know about past issues with Dent. It was helpful to several. I don't want us to just be a mouthpiece for creators, but I don't want it to be toxic for them either.

Now, I will go put my fluffy bunny slippers on and grab a beer.