Bicycle Imperium

[vasta41]

I'm with sinjin here. If "getting it done cheaper" means printing a deck with USPCC then


Now I will say that a change like this isn't like moving a border .0005mm or anything like that so I can see how this would come as a surprise but if I ordered a Honda, went to pick it up and they gave me a Benz instead, you wouldn't hear me complain!

[jsantafe]

Is it going to be a significantly worst product because of the change? Probably not, besides the misalignment risk USPCC is known in our community. So more profit for them is really ok for me. Why would it be bad if it doesn't hurt you?

[Azid]

I don't care who prints this decks, as long as it is USPCC or EPCC/LPCC.
Both printers have their pro and contra sides in my opinion and i like their products.
Personally i'm not a big fan of getting decks from the same project by 2 different printers, so i'm happy with that decision they did.

[sinjin7]

First of all, what I took from the Update is that USPCC made them an offer to print all three decks, including the foil backed ones, at a price that was competitive with LPCC quotes, so they went with it. I highly doubt Concept Grafix will be making significantly more profit, if any, going with the USPCC given their higher production costs. This was probably more of a logistical decision rather than one based on making more money, and I applaud them for that. They save themselves the inevitable headache from LPCC's slower production times and the patience-sapping, month-long boat ride just to get the decks to the U.S. I think of other recent projects that used both the USPCC and the Taiwan printer (Uusi comes to mind), and they had to deal with holding up their fulfillment because the EPCC/LPCC decks came months after they already had their USPCC decks in hand.

Also, its not like Concept Grafix promised printing from LPCC, and then switched to an utterly crappy printer after they got our cash. Even if your preference if for the Taiwanese printer, unless you're just just a raving EPCC/LPCC fanboy, you can't make the argument that the USPCC is that significant of a drop-off, if any, and there are going to be many who feel this is an upgrade in printer, not a downgrade. Both do fantastic work with foiled cards, but I prefer USPCC's foiling because they don't show a stamp-though of the foiled design on the other side of the card and the handling of the cards are preserved better over EPCC/LPCC foiling.

If you are upset because you prefer the better registration from the Taiwanese factory, then this is a valid gripe and I can sympathize with your angst in regards to that lone issue. For me, I think the USPCC does an acceptable job with their registration. Can it be better? Of course (just look at EPCC/LPCC), but most of their decks are produced within registration tolerances that are fine for me and I feel the few times (relative to the quantity of decks they produce overall) they really jack up the registration, more scrutiny is focused on it (and deservedly so), but that tends to focus people to the relatively few bad apples compared to the vast majority of decks that are produced with good registration.

For me, this wasn't a move to line their pockets with more money, but rather a strategic decision based upon logistics. I consider this a great upgrade in printer due to better foiling technique, card handling, and the fact that my deck isn't going to warp on me within an hour of opening the deck. And whatever potential registration issues that may or may not manifest itself is more than offset by the simpler and faster fulfillment and (imo) higher quality printer.

[guru]

Yeah...this is a good decision if you consider both the quality & faster fulfillment. Note that there will always be some tradeoffs like registration here, but majority of backers are going to like this upgrade barring the exception of a few collectors who would have been looking for a USPCC vs LPCC showdown on decks with similar design.

Think about it from this angle - How many backers would have backed the 2 decks (with not that much difference in design) if they were advertised as being printed by USPCC at the start of the campaign itself?
May be, these guys got higher number of 2 decks being backed just because they were being printed by 2 different printers (USPCC & LPCC in this instance). I just hope that USPCC approval process doesn't result into some sort of design change like removal of foil elements from card back. I've not seen any USPCC deck with this kind of minimal foil on card back, but I don't boast of a large collection and there could be some decks out there.

[sinjin7]

I just hope that USPCC approval process doesn't result into some sort of design change like removal of foil elements from card back. I've not seen any USPCC deck with this kind of minimal foil on card back, but I don't boast of a large collection and there could be some decks out there.

You were almost prophetic with your post. Most USPCC decks with MetalLuxe is an all foil back design, with the only exception (that I can think of) being the Gold Monarchs, but that deck is almost all foil in the back. I guess one of the limitations of MetalLuxw is that you can't have spot foiling (as of now) and have to go with all foiled backs, or mostly foiled backs.

So here we see a designer faced with a production set-back and told he couldn't foil the back of his card as he originally wanted. So instead of scrapping the foiling altogether (and pocketing our money as he does so), he makes it work anyway, even at a greater cost to himself (however minimal or significant it may be), and the printer is able to accommodate him. I really can't imagine anyone complaining about an all foil back, especially since the proof card came out very nice, but we'll probably have some complainers anyways. . .

[vasta41]

we'll probably have some complainers anyways. . .

KS is definitely a "buyer beware" kind of market. You always run a risk when pledging for something that doesn't exist yet. I've excepted this fact and remember it every time I pledge. Most projects are "as-is" but sometimes projects change for the worse ::cough:: JR! ::cough:: Very rarely do projects change for the better and even though the cards we're receiving won't be as advertised I think it's a change for the better and I commend the artist for making the decision he did. Bravo! It would be prudent for other artists to follow suit and think about what can be done to appease backers when faced with adversity rather then spending time spaming everyone about a 4 year birthday party (celebrating 4 years of awesome designs riddled with mistakes?)...

[RichK]

I just hope that USPCC approval process doesn't result into some sort of design change like removal of foil elements from card back. I've not seen any USPCC deck with this kind of minimal foil on card back, but I don't boast of a large collection and there could be some decks out there.

You were almost prophetic with your post. Most USPCC decks with MetalLuxe is an all foil back design, with the only exception (that I can think of) being the Gold Monarchs, but that deck is almost all foil in the back. I guess one of the limitations of MetalLuxw is that you can't have spot foiling (as of now) and have to go with all foiled backs, or mostly foiled backs.

So here we see a designer faced with a production set-back and told he couldn't foil the back of his card as he originally wanted. So instead of scrapping the foiling altogether (and pocketing our money as he does so), he makes it work anyway, even at a greater cost to himself (however minimal or significant it may be), and the printer is able to accommodate him. I really can't imagine anyone complaining about an all foil back, especially since the proof card came out very nice, but we'll probably have some complainers anyways. . .

Well John you found a complainer. Yes I'm sorry to see them have to pay more for all foil but the art looks more like a woodblock print with unique imperfections. Where are the crisp tight lines? Do they see the foil dot on the right side by the four suits? Why flat pictures and none taken with light shining off the foil? To me it looks more like yellow ink. And what about the tucks and black deck? What issues will they possibly have? I fear, but hope not, more problems coming.

No update ever mentioned MetalLuxe unless that's the default foil now for USPCC, I don't know.

Do I like complaining about projects...no. I'm mostly always positive about them. Even the Legal Tender non foiled center on the US deck looks better to me vs. the foiled one they pictured and had to change. I can deal with delays as long as they update us too. I just have a gut feeling this is going to get worse. I hope I'm wrong.

[Bikefanatic]

Sucks that the Bicycle version will have no foil also the back design may look better than the original design with more foil for unbranded deck.

[jsantafe]

All agree but for the record I recall the Espionage (special edition) deck to have spot foil on the back of cards, amarite?

[RichK]

Sucks that the Bicycle version will have no foil also the back design may look better than the original design with more foil for unbranded deck.

I hope the card back will be gray or something dark to offset the foil. I doubt it since they just showed the foil.

[jsantafe]

Looks like the creator has deleted his account in Kickstarter. Looks fishy but there doesn't seem to be any more red alerts, right?

[vasta41]

Looks like the creator has deleted his account in Kickstarter. Looks fishy but there doesn't seem to be any more red alerts, right?

IMO there doesn't need to be any more red alerts- this is definitely cause for concern!

[jerichoholic]

Glad I bailed on this one. Perhaps people should start contacting playingcards.net since that is his buddy and they are doing fulfillment.

[gianluca1975]

The project claims to be of Dallas (USA) and the website now states that it is an Australian company.
In the absence of answers, we should proceed with the criminal complaint with the competent authority of their nation.

[gianluca1975]

I researched on the internet, if someone needs to identify it can provide all documentation via PM.

[jsantafe]

Looks like Gamblers Warehouse might be the next best option to get some info:

Anybody has a direct contact there? Not to flood them with questions.

[CBJ]

I have a direct contact. I just sent them a message.

That being said... this is from page 1 of this thread

"No Mike. Its not us. Its one of our clients in Dallas whom we provided consulting & fulfillment services for this project.
Don't worry guys no red flag on this one. Its legit. The project owner is self funding 50 percent of it..."

[jerichoholic]

Oh yeah, no red flags there at all. Someone we've never heard of self funding 50% of a project and everyone else seemingly wiping their hands clean of this one, Gamblers and Blackout Brother.

You have a direct contact with Concept Grafix?

[guru]

Oh yeah, no red flags there at all. Someone we've never heard of self funding 50% of a project and everyone else seemingly wiping their hands clean of this one, Gamblers and Blackout Brother.

You have a direct contact with Concept Grafix?

Well, I did self fund Divine Art but I was prepared from the start. I do understand where you're coming from by the way. These type of actions like changing direction post Kickstarter, not responding or providing regular updates & deleting the account is bad not just for the concerned project creator but to all other legitimate & focussed creators especially the ones who are new to Kickstarter. I checked the first page of this thread and observed that people were skeptical about the project at the start but as soon as the message from GamblersWarehouse arrived, the project just blew past the goal.

The websites associated with this company does look fishy. The address shows they are in Melbourne CBD, I might go & check this week if I get time.

[Gamblers Warehouse]

I am trying to get a hold of the creator to seek for an answer.
Before jumping to conclusions just give me 24 hours to inquire and ill get back to you.

Thanks
Eddie

[hawk199]

Thanks Eddie appreciate it...be it good or bad outcome

[badpete69]

I immediately raised the red flag when this came out but because of Eddie statement, I went ahead and pledged as I was reassured. I know we are waiting for Eddie's response but now this smells funny. hopefully we are all a bunch of worry warts and all is good

[vasta41]

Aside from the obvious fraud that this could be another tragedy, albeit much further down the list of worries, is that a nicely designed deck will have not been made. And this will certainly overtake the Army Men deck as my "Best Funded Deck That Never Was" winner.

But seriously. Let's hope we're not all screwed here.

[jerichoholic]

Well 24 hours and no answers, probably because the creator is not responding to anyone. In fact I messaged him on FB and have yet to see a response.

[conceptgrafix]

I am the creator of imperium project. I would like to notify everyone that due to some unforseen circumstances I would not be able to complete this project. I would therefore start refunding the backers from next week. Backers need to email me with pledge receipt from kickstarter for a refund and paypal info on conceptgrafixsales@gmail.com
I really wanted to print these decks and deliver but unfortunately it did not go as planned. Total cost of printing and fulfillment is $45000.
I could only raise $23000 via kickstarter and had to self fund the remaining but unfortunately lost my job at the end of 2016.
Therefore it's really hard for me to continue it further.
I apologize that this could not end as intended.

[Fes]

I am the creator of imperium project. I would like to notify everyone that due to some unforseen circumstances I would not be able to complete this project. I would therefore start refunding the backers from next week. Backers need to email me with pledge receipt from kickstarter for a refund and paypal info on conceptgrafixsales@gmail.com
I really wanted to print these decks and deliver but unfortunately it did not go as planned. Total cost of printing and fulfillment is $45000.
I could only raise $23000 via kickstarter and had to self fund the remaining but unfortunately lost my job at the end of 2016.
Therefore it's really hard for me to continue it further.
I apologize that this could not end as intended.

Some product is better than no product. You made $26,893 US. We know you've already spent some of the money and with fees you don't have enough to refund everyone their pledges.

Make the god damn decks and ship them to your backers. It doesn't need to be USPCC and LPCC. There are other company's. If you have to use Liberty, Cartamundi, MPC, whatever. You can get two decks printed by someone for $26,893.00 US. Get some product in the hands of the backers. Everyone is going to get screwed but at least we'll have some playing cards with black brothers design this way. You already have the surveys.

No Mike. Its not us. Its one of our clients in Dallas whom we provided consulting & fulfillment services for this project.
Don't worry guys no red flag on this one. Its legit. The project owner is self funding 50 percent of it...

I backed because of this comment. I wonder how many others did the same.

[TGunitedcardists]

Unfortunate, but by refunding the money and putting out another project in the future, I think it's fine. Transparency and communication is the key. I'm looking forward to a refund and look forward to when you get everything in order for next time.

[rousselle]

I'm sorry to hear that things did not work out for this project. I have sent an e-mail to the given address, forwarding the e-mail receipt that was originally sent to me by Kickstarter, and including my paypal e-mail address.

I feel like you might not have done a good thing by deleting your Kickstarter account, because now it will be more difficult for you to reach out to your other backers who don't have the benefit of being on UnitedCardists.

I do hope you send out the refunds soon, as you indicate you plan to do. Assuming refunds are all sent out, I see no harm / no foul.

[guru]

When I saw Fes's comment above, I thought I should contact the creator and offer to get these decks produced by GPCC. But, in retrospect, I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

The creator deleted his Kickstarter account and it allows him not being able to communicate to his backers as well as not to offer refund via Kickstarter. I know a lot of people out there who do not prefer Paypal and I assume there are going to be a no. of backers in this category. Secondly, I noticed that there is a mention of creator deleting project images from his facebook profile on a fb group. One of the backers had shared a screenshot of his profile yesterday, and today the concerned project pic has been deleted. Now, there are also open question on whether he will be offering a full or partial refund (remember, Kickstarter and Stripe takes their cut from every pledge) and whether he will be offering refunds to all or only to backers based in US because of the fear of getting sued in US.

These type of incidents also put a dent on the credibility of new project creators on Kickstarter making backers look at each and every new project with suspicion. So, I cannot partner with anyone having such an unprofessional conduct in the field.

That being said, I've looked at the project page and no. of decks required to be fulfilled, and I do believe this project can happen with the amount raised.
If the project creator is reading this, then I will like him to contact Expert PCC for their quote, and also go to Keen Hong (fulfillment partner recommended by EPCC itself) for shipping & fulfillment out of Taiwan. Or, in fact, check with Lotrek to see if he can help in getting these 2 decks produced in Greece. I'm recommending Lotrek because he works closely with a printing press in Greece and is an expert on foiled cards. The designs do not have that kind of complexity involved as seen on projects done by Lotrek, so I believe the printing press in Greece can do it under Lotrek's supervision.

On shipping front, this is my rough numbers for fulfillment from Taiwan.

217 packages sent all over the world (with decks varying 1-5 per package) will cost approximately $1,900 .
500 packages sent all over the world (with decks varying 1-5 per package) will cost approximately $4,400.
800 packages sent all over the world (with decks varying 1-5 per package) will cost approximately $7,150.

Hope that helps.

PS: I also wish that this creator refunds all his backers and, try launching this project again after his situation improves. It is a good design and it will be a shame if it is not produced.


Regards,
Sunish