L I T U R G Y "TREASURE" Edition on UCdecksales.com

[JacksandJokers]

This is probably not what most of you want to hear but thought I would offer up my opinion anyway:

I have always been a huge fan of Lotrek's work and delighted that he continues to push the boundaries of playing card production.
I understand that with this in mind mistakes will and do happen but I'm starting to get to the point now where I'm thinking "another errored deck, really?" This goes for numerous other projects I've backed as well not just Lotreks, and it really throws a downer on the whole playing card collecting business for me. I'm starting to agree with others who say the cards should be printed and be ready to ship before they are even advertised.

In this case, whilst I didn't back the deck particularly for the stock I do tend to only spend my hard money on decks that I truly like particularly if they are advertised as "limited editions".
What I don't want to see is a deck what was once only 300 in number printed and re-printed with different stocks, tucks, colors etc until there are so many versions on the market that their original limited edition status has pretty much become a joke.
If a deck is advertised as only being 300 in number that is what I would expect. So whilst most people will no doubt want a re-printed, perfectly aligned deck AND the errored deck. Personally I would prefer one or the other, either reprint and scrap the original print or send out the decks that were originally advertised.
I believe there were still about 100+ of each deck unsold, is it possible some of these cards could be exchanged for the really badly aligned ones?
Another solution, reprint the deck and send backers a couple of cards from the original print so they can see what the deck should/could have been like.
Anyway rant over. I'm sure Lotrek will make the best decision for all of us in the end.

[RichK]

I agree that no matter how you see it, it sucks. But the main purpose of the deck is for people to admire the printing technique which trully looks like something between printing and painting and also to get mesmerized by the play of light on the metallic stock. This purpose is perfectly served by the all bronze stock. The bi-color stock served me very well but it was not the main value of the deck. Besides, I intend to continue using metallic stocks and these will be of the same color on both sides.
In the end, I'm sure that all will say that the new print is better. I'll make some small changes that will add to the beauty of the deck.

@Vasta: I too expect my first print to have flaws. I'm doing this with printers that have excellent equipment and knowledge but no experience in playing card printing. So I must be constantly checking everything. It's very difficult and I'm sure I'll be failing sometimes.

What are you doing with the misprints on the unique stock? I am interested in those

I am too. I'm sure the bronze stock will be incredible but I'd like to see this bi-colored stock even if the face side isn't even. I open decks to look at the art, not play with. Blame JR's Fed 52 for my interest in cards now.

(You've read my opinion on FB Lotrek. (Pro error and bronze decks for all, more money if needed.))

[Lotrek]

I have made some decisions that will be soon announced in my HMPC official thread but let me throw a few of them here:

I'll probably discontinue producing decks myself. Not completely but I'll be doing 1 deck per year and the print run will be 200 decks max. This way I'll be able to check literally each card.
When I'll be announcing a sale of a deck made by me you'll always know (and it will be clearly stated) that the deck is 100% ready to ship the next day.
When doing a KS I'll be using only one of the big companies. This way backers will know what to expect regarding production and I'll be relaxed as any potential issues won't be my job to fix.

I too want a limited deck to be limited. However I'm not a tycoon and I cannot always afford scrapping a whole print run. I did it once with Black Mass (which btw is very close to completion), I did it twice with ICONS but no matter how much I hate it, I often find myself in the need to sell at least some of the misprinted decks.

[JacksandJokers]

I have made some decisions that will be soon announced in my HMPC official thread but let me throw a few of them here:

I'll probably discontinue producing decks myself. Not completely but I'll be doing 1 deck per year and the print run will be 200 decks max. This way I'll be able to check literally each card.
When I'll be announcing a sale of a deck made by me you'll always know (and it will be clearly stated) that the deck is 100% ready to ship the next day.
When doing a KS I'll be using only one of the big companies. This way backers will know what to expect regarding production and I'll be relaxed as any potential issues won't be my job to fix.

I too want a limited deck to be limited. However I'm not a tycoon and I cannot always afford scrapping a whole print run. I did it once with Black Mass (which btw is very close to completion), I did it twice with ICONS but no matter how much I hate it, I often find myself in the need to sell at least some of the misprinted decks.

For one I think this is a step in the right direction Lotrek. No reason why you can't produce a deck yourself whilst also running a KS or two. Three decks per year?

[guru]

I have made some decisions that will be soon announced in my HMPC official thread but let me throw a few of them here:

I'll probably discontinue producing decks myself. Not completely but I'll be doing 1 deck per year and the print run will be 200 decks max. This way I'll be able to check literally each card.
When I'll be announcing a sale of a deck made by me you'll always know (and it will be clearly stated) that the deck is 100% ready to ship the next day.
When doing a KS I'll be using only one of the big companies. This way backers will know what to expect regarding production and I'll be relaxed as any potential issues won't be my job to fix.

I too want a limited deck to be limited. However I'm not a tycoon and I cannot always afford scrapping a whole print run. I did it once with Black Mass (which btw is very close to completion), I did it twice with ICONS but no matter how much I hate it, I often find myself in the need to sell at least some of the misprinted decks.

Hi Lotrek,

I admire your tenacity and look upto people like you who are ready to take this craft and field to an altogether different level even while facing huge risks. I always remember the #1 advice you gave me the other day on PM which I found counterintuitive but now I think it works.

Anyways, I know you've already worked with big printers, and working with them will give you a certain sense of satisfaction because the risk will be on to them and you know the quality standard you're going to get. That being said, I will be glad to see if you can partner with Guru Playing Card Company (GPCC) one day and get your decks produced. Apart from the Japanese quality standards that you can expect, another major factor to partner will be to shorten the lead time in producing the deck and getting it shipped way faster than what we see usually these days. GPCC is yet to produce and fulfill a deck so it is still a long way to go, and there are other things like website not ready, value proposition still in definition stage etc., but you're already aware of how things can go while working on such a major plan, so just wait n watch. Let me get this current Kickstarter go smooth and hope someday you will come to GPCC and collaborate on a deck.

Regards,
Sunish

[sms69x]

The way I see it:
If people want the misaligned deck then send it to them;
If people don't want it then refund them;
If there's enough demand, print a new run on the bronze stock, and still sell the remainding misaligned decks.

I think this way everybody wins, I don't see any need to destroy these decks to have them made again on a different stock. If you still want to produce the perfect deck, by all means do so, but make sure you have it done before collecting everybody's money, I'm getting tired of this errors and problems that delay and utterly change the deck I bought in the first place.

[Lotrek]

but make sure you have it done before collecting everybody's money, I'm getting tired of this errors and problems that delay and utterly change the deck I bought in the first place.

TOTALLY AGREE. With one small objection: The changes on ICONS were for the better. The final product was enriched compared to the initially intented deck.
In any case, whatever comes from me in the future will be 100% finished and ready for shipment before it goes on sale. If you're getting tired of this, I'm already exhausted! For backers it's a disappointment, for me it's constant agony.

[vincero]

I can echo some of our expectation as to have what was described in the pre-order- that is a quality deck with a rare stock. To this end, I see it fair to get both the misprinted decks for its rarity and the newer reprint of a similar improved design like the icons.

[MagikFingerz]

The way I see it:
If people want the misaligned deck then send it to them;
If people don't want it then refund them;
If there's enough demand, print a new run on the bronze stock, and still sell the remainding misaligned decks.

This. Please.

The special stock may not have been the main selling point for you, Lotrek, but it was for many of us. Misalignment is not a big deal.

[Stepchild]

Misalignment is not a big deal.

Disagree strongly. Some of the card faces shown in the email to funders are really unacceptably off as far as I'm concerned.

tdVZ1lokrRufRy1SZu-BdlsuqWWnVRcRGAPoVuUu-yImRvnNUkKsP1bj8dSVqZRQnh_xqPlKS14nA249Siy_DBF6jxE3uj5Ml1ud99cQFVM1PtcJZThGAnGFv6RPbqKwcZf92YPtx3rdOiXnoCMTz3uWkz8ywRGf643FO_YPJ7DIUeFw3fnErCK6Cz9d07Y=s0-d-e1-ft.jpg (48.32 KiB) Viewed 2107 times

[Lotrek]

I could live with that 9oC but the 3oD...

[Lotrek]

I can echo some of our expectation as to have what was described in the pre-order- that is a quality deck with a rare stock. To this end, I see it fair to get both the misprinted decks for its rarity and the newer reprint of a similar improved design like the icons.

The vast majority (including myself) wants the correctly printed version. I already ordered the stock and I expect it to be here on the 29th of Nov. Until then, I'm doing some improvements on the design that will add to the deck. The good thing is that the first print unintentionally served as a "hard proof" and I can fix and add a couple of things to make it even better.
One thing I'm sure about: When you see the deck, you'll forget about the rarity of the stock. Beauty will win.

[sms69x]

Misalignment is not a big deal.

Disagree strongly. Some of the card faces shown in the email to funders are really unacceptably off as far as I'm concerned.

Then agan, if you're not happy just ask for a refund, why should the deck be discarded if there are some of us that don't mind to have it...
As for the 3oD, I own several Bikes that have even worst registration than that, and it is back and front, so no big deal, and again for those not happy just cancel your order and get the new LITURGY, that I think you (Lotrek) should call it something different, as it will be definitely a different deck than what was promised. Maybe you should call it LITURGY "Bronze Age", or something like that...

[Stepchild]

No need for me to cancel anything.

I have every confidence that no deck with cards like that 3 of Diamonds would be issued as Lotrek's realized work. Maybe as an interesting but defective result of work-in-progress, but as a finished deck? No.

I am certain I'll be pleased with the receipt from my order and have no plan whatsoever to change it. I'll be getting what Liturgy ultimately turns out to be.

[MagikFingerz]

I agree with sms and respectfully disagree with rrot.

This deck was promised to have special stock. That is what buyers should receive, faulty or not. Whether it should be reprinted with no misalignment but without the special stock is a separate issue, and if that is the case it should be called something else. Be it V2 or what have you.

This is not the same situation as ICONS where if something goes wrong, it can be replaced with a new run and the faulty runs can be sold separately; and thus should not be treated as such.

[vincero]

My 2 cents and personal happiness rating are as follows based on non-exhaustive scenarios (out of 10):
My individual weightings out of 10
Rarity factor out of 4
Quality/Beauty out of 4
Brand loyalty and goodwill out of 2
Scenario 1:misaligned deck only 6=4+2+0
Scenario 2:misaligned deck + goodwill 7=4+2+1
Scenario 3:non-special stock deck only 6=2+4+0
Scenario 4:non-special stock + goodwill 7=2+4+1
Scenario 5:refund -1=0+0-1
Scenario 6:misaligned deck + non-special stock 9=4+4+1
Scenario 7:new reprint with special rare stock 9=4+4+1

[UtterFool]

My 2 cents and personal happiness rating are as follows based on non-exhaustive scenarios (out of 10):
My individual weightings out of 10
Rarity factor out of 4
Quality/Beauty out of 4
Brand loyalty and goodwill out of 2
Scenario 1:misaligned deck only 6=4+2+0
Scenario 2:misaligned deck + goodwill 7=4+2+1
Scenario 3:non-special stock deck only 6=2+4+0
Scenario 4:non-special stock + goodwill 7=2+4+1
Scenario 5:refund -1=0+0-1
Scenario 6:misaligned deck + non-special stock 9=4+4+1
Scenario 7:new reprint with special rare stock 9=4+4+1

I am sorry... not trying to be rude.
But I do not understand this post.
is this whole thing out of 10?
or a total of 20

Sorry ... more clarity is requested... remember I am a fool after all

[Justin O.]

I agree with sms and respectfully disagree with rrot.

This deck was promised to have special stock. That is what buyers should receive, faulty or not. Whether it should be reprinted with no misalignment but without the special stock is a separate issue, and if that is the case it should be called something else. Be it V2 or what have you.

This is not the same situation as ICONS where if something goes wrong, it can be replaced with a new run and the faulty runs can be sold separately; and thus should not be treated as such.

I am in full agreement with MagikFingers here, the stock of the deck is the priority here for myself as well, it is what I was sold and what I got on board for, not the art (wonderful as it always is with your work Lotrek), not the registration. I have a million decks with amazing art, I have just as many with great registration, neither good art nor good alignment are interesting or unique; this stock, however, is something special, something exclusive, and something we won't see again.

[RichK]

I agree with sms and respectfully disagree with rrot.

This deck was promised to have special stock. That is what buyers should receive, faulty or not. Whether it should be reprinted with no misalignment but without the special stock is a separate issue, and if that is the case it should be called something else. Be it V2 or what have you.

This is not the same situation as ICONS where if something goes wrong, it can be replaced with a new run and the faulty runs can be sold separately; and thus should not be treated as such.

I am in full agreement with MagikFingers here, the stock of the deck is the priority here for myself as well, it is what I was sold and what I got on board for, not the art (wonderful as it always is with your work Lotrek), not the registration. I have a million decks with amazing art, I have just as many with great registration, neither good art nor good alignment are interesting or unique; this stock, however, is something special, something exclusive, and something we won't see again.

I hate to jump on this bandwagon but the saying "One man's trash is another man's treasure" holds true in this case. Sure the registration is off but the art isn't nor is the stock. I'm sure the all bronze decks will amaze us but I was in for the special stock along with the art. Please don't deny those of us who want these decks to have them.

I'll be there if you need money for the bronze deck if I know I'm getting the special stock deck too. I don't want you in financial ruin.

[vincero]

My 2 cents and personal happiness rating are as follows based on non-exhaustive scenarios (out of 10):
My individual weightings out of 10
Rarity factor out of 4
Quality/Beauty out of 4
Brand loyalty and goodwill out of 2
Scenario 1:misaligned deck only 6=4+2+0
Scenario 2:misaligned deck + goodwill 7=4+2+1
Scenario 3:non-special stock deck only 6=2+4+0
Scenario 4:non-special stock + goodwill 7=2+4+1
Scenario 5:refund -1=0+0-1
Scenario 6:misaligned deck + non-special stock 9=4+4+1
Scenario 7:new reprint with special rare stock 9=4+4+1

I am sorry... not trying to be rude.
But I do not understand this post.
is this whole thing out of 10?
or a total of 20

Sorry ... more clarity is requested... remember I am a fool after all

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant out of 10. It is my personal utility scale as to what I feel.

Anyway, I'm still looking forward for the unique stock but certainly not at the same price point. A number of options and individual preferences are listed here and on FB. I reckon, I still entrust Lotrek to make a well-rounded decision of what will make the most sense financially for him while keeping supporters happy.

[shaitani]

I don't have a stake in Lotrek's ultimate decision because I missed the pre-order. That said I have followed what's happened and believe that there is no perfect decision, BUT there is clearly a best available decision.

Put a sticker or something on the cellophane of the mis-aligned deck saying "Mis-aligned" or "Prototype" or "Version 0" or something, so it's clear that this deck is not representative of the expected quality, but is a special case born of necessity.

Give the pre-order people the option to receive the mis-aligned deck (optionally with a partial refund as goodwill) or simply receive a complete refund.
Next, give them the option to then pre-order from the reprint on the less-rare stock for a fair discount.

The reprint ideally is a batch of equal or greater quantity, and ideally with something visually different on the tuck to tell them apart from the mis-aligned deck.

That should satisfy everyone from rarity collectors, rare stock appreciators, art appreciators, and those who open and play with the cards.
Although it won't satisfy those who can no longer possibly be satisfied (those who expect Lotrek to rewind time and fix the mis-alignment on the rare stock)
I don't see an outcome that is better than this.

[Bikefanatic]

My 2 cents and personal happiness rating are as follows based on non-exhaustive scenarios (out of 10):
My individual weightings out of 10
Rarity factor out of 4
Quality/Beauty out of 4
Brand loyalty and goodwill out of 2
Scenario 1:misaligned deck only 6=4+2+0
Scenario 2:misaligned deck + goodwill 7=4+2+1
Scenario 3:non-special stock deck only 6=2+4+0
Scenario 4:non-special stock + goodwill 7=2+4+1
Scenario 5:refund -1=0+0-1
Scenario 6:misaligned deck + non-special stock 9=4+4+1
Scenario 7:new reprint with special rare stock 9=4+4+1

I am sorry... not trying to be rude.
But I do not understand this post.
is this whole thing out of 10?
or a total of 20

Sorry ... more clarity is requested... remember I am a fool after all

Yo, you not the only one who was wondering what he was talking about. We just let it slide.

I'll like to keep one of each deck with aligned backs with non aligned fronts and if a version 2.0 is made, it could be another color(s).

[Lotrek]

I'm taking notes...

I'm trying to find the best possible solution. One thing is for sure, I'll reprint on all bronze stock (which of course is still a rarity itself). I'm still working on the details of how and what. The reprint will definitely have a distinct tuck case, a different name (possibly "Liturgy Bronze"), a slightly different back (like a thin black border framing the back design) and a few changes in the artwork that will add beauty. I'm working on these ideas while I'm expecting the stock to arrive on the 30th of Nov.

[Bruno]

Double double good good says I ....
And a crimson crackin' Crikey !

[Stepchild]

I'm taking notes...

Working, reprinting, adding beauty...

I was pretty sure I wanted to stay along for the ride. No change for this funder.

[GBAllison]

First, I have confidence that lotrek will come up with the best answer. I for one trust in his judgment and his instincts.
Second, while we're in wishing-for mode, I wish for a *pair* of properly-aligned decks, with contrasting-color backs.
As ever,
GB

[Lotrek]

After a lot of thought, the final decision is made:

1) All orders will be fulfilled with the "good" decks, these of the second print run on bronze stock.
2) Each package will also contain a green back deck (black/bronze stock) from the misaligned print run for free. This will be in a very basic tuck case and it will be a gift to all.
3) A limited number of red back misaligned decks will be available as add-ons for purchase @ $15 (shipment is included). These decks will be in a more elaborate tuck case made of the original stock intended for the tucks with inner printing but will have metallic inks instead of gold foil. There will probably be a 24h time limit for this sale.
After that, all the remaining decks will be destroyed. For the fun of it I'll show the destroying process in a video.

Details about the red decks sale will be announced very soon in a newsletter to all who ordered the decks. I'll also post here.

[Justin O.]

Thanks Lotrek

[RichK]

Thanks Lotrek

+1

Great decision with the free gift card and "error" deck purchase. (I'd rather it be the green deck since it's my favorite color. )

[Lotrek]

Thanks Lotrek

+1

Great decision with the free gift card and "error" deck purchase. (I'd rather it be the green deck since it's my favorite color. )

It's not free gift card. It's free gift deck.