The Confidence deck from Bedeceived on Kickstarter???

[badpete69]

The third deck of that series is now on Kickstarter. What the heck did I preorder last month on their website??? Looks like a yet to be made deck

Edit...I heard from Colin...This is to help with cost of producing the deck

[BMPokerworld]

The third deck of that series is now on Kickstarter. What the heck did I preorder last month on their website??? Looks like a yet to be made deck

Edit...I heard from Colin...This is to help with cost of producing the deck

That is probably because they didn't raise enough of funds through their pre-order and need more money to produce the deck.

Thanks!

[Russell]

Interesting quote from the KS page....

...Running a company is not cheap — by any stretch of the imagination. While I've had great fun running the company, I've also acquired great debt because of it. Whatever funds are left from this deck will go towards paying off that debt...

Also, I think the cards are already printed because of this....

...Only 2500 of these babies were printed...

So, is he running a KS project to pay off the bills?


-------- EDIT--------
That's exactly what it sounds like, Mike. From what I can gather, he took the pre-order money to put the 50% down payment for the cards to be printed by USPCC, now he is trying to raise enough for the other 50% or he cant get the cards.
Again, I can't speak with certainty, but that's what it looks like.

[BMPokerworld]

Interesting quote from the KS page....

...Running a company is not cheap — by any stretch of the imagination. While I've had great fun running the company, I've also acquired great debt because of it. Whatever funds are left from this deck will go towards paying off that debt...

Also, I think the cards are already printed because of this....

...Only 2500 of these babies were printed...

So, is he running a KS project to pay off the bills?


-------- EDIT--------
That's exactly what it sounds like, Mike. From what I can gather, he took the pre-order money to put the 50% down payment for the cards to be printed by USPCC, now he is trying to raise enough for the other 50% or he cant get the cards.
Again, I can't speak with certainty, but that's what it looks like.

If you read further down on Kickstarter, he says that he doesn't have all the money and they have not been printed yet. This is what happens when you try to just sell retail and not wholesale. That is why Ellusionist, Theory11 and Dan and Dave all wholesale. Its great when things work out, but when they don't, you either can't get your deck produced or your sitting on tons of product. Just ask Erik Mana. He didn't want to wholesale his decks until they didn't sell retail and now he is sitting on a ton of the verve decks that nobody wants. Who wants to do business with someone who only wants to sell you their crap nobody wants? I sure don't

Thanks!

[walrus]

Very strange turn of events. Although it seems others have started kickstarter projects to pay debts or what have you I am surprised to see a company do this. I have to say the other Bedeceived decks were nice and handled great. Although I would not mind having the third in the series I do not think I will go near this fiasco.

[BMPokerworld]

Collin talks about his new deck 'Confidence' being designed by 'PeachCrate Design'... PeachCrate Design has one employee, Collin.

Now that's funny!!!

Thanks!

[CBJ]

So.... what happens if this KS campaign fails? All the people who pre-ordered are screwed?

I haven't ordered any of his decks, and these kind of practices make him look really bad

CBJ

[BMPokerworld]

So.... what happens if this KS campaign fails? All the people who pre-ordered are screwed?

I haven't ordered any of his decks, and these kind of practices make him look really bad

CBJ

Who knows. This is the problem when you have people who are in business but don't have any money and everything they do, they have to use other people's money. Like Russell said:

So he is running a KS project to pay off the bills from his poor money management and business skills. No thanks.

Think about it, how many Kickstarter projects or other projects where the creator needed the money upfront to get the decks produced, have really gone smoothly? Almost all of them have had some issue. There have been a few, 4PM, CCC, Encarded, Hidden Mirrors and Galvanic that have gone well, but that is probably it. The rest have been nothing but a headache.

Thanks!

[badpete69]

So I wrote him a note like I said earlier and he assured me that the decks will get printed no matter if the KS fails or not. He said he added a FAQ to clarify the situation

[Sinsandman]

Glad he assured you lol... Now it must be golden

[badpete69]

By the way...The project is already 30% financed

[Russell]

To be fair, this is his third deck. So far, his track record is good.

[Sinsandman]

I wrote a long post and accidentally clicked back. Too lazy to write it all again. Long story short, I don't see this ending well for Collin or anyone who who backs or has preordered. There is a lot of ego involved with boy wonder.

[Sinsandman]

Reminds me of the Robert fiasco...worrisome. Though Rob is making the right steps to recovery

[badpete69]

Glad he assured you lol... Now it must be golden

Actuallt Sin I never said I was re-assured. I am just related what he said...Plus I bought the first 2 decks from his website and they were delivered with no issues. Overall I am not worried as much as I was surprised to see the KS listed

[Evan]

Here's something that Collin posted:
"Everyone who preordered their deck (whether through our own site or through Kickstarter) will receive their deck right on schedule! This Kickstarter project is simply here to cope with the massive amount of costs that come from running a website, printing cards, and shipping them. If this project does not back, we will seek other means of funding, however I guarantee that these cards will be printed. Do not worry about that!''

[Sinsandman]

He does have a good record of delivering for sure. But...this deck doesn't exist yet. That is the problem here. People who pledge KS know ahead of time that they are pledging an idea to come to being. I'm not sure how the Mystery deck was funded but that went fine. People have preordered this deck under the impression it was already made or being printed. Come to find out, neither is the case. And if this KS fails, what "other means of funding" is going to happen? Ask mom and dad for a few grand? Here's hoping all goes well.

[BMPokerworld]

Here's something that Collin posted:
"Everyone who preordered their deck (whether through our own site or through Kickstarter) will receive their deck right on schedule! This Kickstarter project is simply here to cope with the massive amount of costs that come from running a website, printing cards, and shipping them. If this project does not back, we will seek other means of funding, however I guarantee that these cards will be printed. Do not worry about that!''

Here's What Alex wrote concerning the vortex deck:

We ship and pack professionally, ensuring your decks will reach you quickly and unharmed.

And we all know what has happened with that deck right? I am not saying it will be an issue, it probably won't. But those are just words that only mean something if the person saying them is actually committed to them and has integrity.

Thanks!

[lordlupus]

I have pledged in his Kickstarter.

To be fair, he has been upfront with the objective of this kickstarter (to get Confidence funded for production) so there is no point crying over why he is in the current predicament. He mentioned that overfunding will be used to clear his debt so there will be no stretch goals which is fine by me: I pledged for what I am getting and there will not be additional freebies, that's clear.

I can understand why the card designers and wholesalers are been negative about this Kickstarter but obviously Bedeceived made his own business decision not to go wholesale or via KS/HOPC channel which on hindsight now may not be as sound as he hopes for. But this is KS, not Indiegogo, so if it does not get funded, backers do not have to pay. Pre-order customers (like me) will have to hope he produces the deck at the end of the day or find other avenue to get our money back if the sh*t hits the fan. Or we can help fund this KS to ensure that Mystery gets produced and our pre-orders will be met.

I love the Style and Mystery decks and I did not face any issue with their pruchases so I am more than happy to fund this KS. After all, isn't the point of a Kickstarter to kickstart the dreams of creators?

[Xoul]

I'm not backing this project. This is not the way you do business.

[Sinsandman]

In this case his "dream" is an exit strategy. So...if this does not get funded, or even if it does, he has nothing to lose in future endeavors. Why not just take the money, get out of debt, and dip?

[MJF]

Yeah, I'm glad I didn't pre-order the Bedeceived decks now... this is a terrible way to do business... a pre-order for most folks indicates that the decks are being printed or soon to be - but 100% for sure will be printed. You don't do a pre-order with the possibility of coming back with "whoops, we don't have enough to print the decks"...

[BMPokerworld]

I have pledged in his Kickstarter.

To be fair, he has been upfront with the objective of this kickstarter (to get Confidence funded for production) so there is no point crying over why he is in the current predicament. He mentioned that overfunding will be used to clear his debt so there will be no stretch goals which is fine by me: I pledged for what I am getting and there will not be additional freebies, that's clear.

I can understand why the card designers and wholesalers are been negative about this Kickstarter but obviously Bedeceived made his own business decision not to go wholesale or via KS/HOPC channel which on hindsight now may not be as sound as he hopes for. But this is KS, not Indiegogo, so if it does not get funded, backers do not have to pay. Pre-order customers (like me) will have to hope he produces the deck at the end of the day or find other avenue to get our money back if the sh*t hits the fan. Or we can help fund this KS to ensure that Mystery gets produced and our pre-orders will be met.

I love the Style and Mystery decks and I did not face any issue with their pruchases so I am more than happy to fund this KS. After all, isn't the point of a Kickstarter to kickstart the dreams of creators?

Isn't it the dream of the supporters to get what they paid for?

Thanks!

[Paul Middleton]

I'm Posting this on behalf of Colin... this is an email I received a short time ago.

Hey Paul,

Honestly, I can understand why some people may be a little confused that I chose to go with Kickstarter. Whatever problems could occur, the deck is still being printed. It's almost finished printing with the USPCC and is expected to ship to us by the middle of this month. All of this has been scheduled and set in stone. The Kickstarter project was simply a way to garner the other 50% down without putting myself into further personal debt, which is legal within Kickstarter's t&c.

What is being posted on the forum is speculation, and honestly, I agree that I would be feeling the same way if I was in their situation. People like you have paid money for this deck through my site, and it is worrisome for it to suddenly go up on Kickstarter. I assure you, though, that the deck is being printed regardless of Kickstarter funding. It's just the difference between the money coming from one place or another. Honestly, the project is about 90% funded within 24 hours. We have 29 days left. I don't think we're going to have any problem funding the deck, so it's really a non-issue at this point. I will continue to keep everyone updated as I have throughout all 3 decks and their various processes.

I've been asked to post on that forum clearing myself up, but have not been accepted yet. If you like, you may post this entire email to that board.

Thanks!

Collin Stover
CEO, Bedeceived
"Happiness never decreases by being shared"

[BMPokerworld]

I'm Posting this on behalf of Colin... this is an email I received a short time ago.

Hey Paul,

Honestly, I can understand why some people may be a little confused that I chose to go with Kickstarter. Whatever problems could occur, the deck is still being printed. It's almost finished printing with the USPCC and is expected to ship to us by the middle of this month. All of this has been scheduled and set in stone. The Kickstarter project was simply a way to garner the other 50% down without putting myself into further personal debt, which is legal within Kickstarter's t&c.

What is being posted on the forum is speculation, and honestly, I agree that I would be feeling the same way if I was in their situation. People like you have paid money for this deck through my site, and it is worrisome for it to suddenly go up on Kickstarter. I assure you, though, that the deck is being printed regardless of Kickstarter funding. It's just the difference between the money coming from one place or another. Honestly, the project is about 90% funded within 24 hours. We have 29 days left. I don't think we're going to have any problem funding the deck, so it's really a non-issue at this point. I will continue to keep everyone updated as I have throughout all 3 decks and their various processes.

I've been asked to post on that forum clearing myself up, but have not been accepted yet. If you like, you may post this entire email to that board.

Thanks!

Collin Stover
CEO, Bedeceived
"Happiness never decreases by being shared"

Well if the deck is going to ship in the middle of this month, then why did he list his project on Kickstarter? He will still have to go into "debt" because he won't have the Kickstarter money until AFTER the decks are paid for and delivered to him. His email makes no sense from that perspective. I am sure it was as original stated, the pre-sell did not go as well as palnned and he is trying to sell more decks.

Thanks!

[Sinsandman]

I will hold my reservation. Talk is easy to come by. We will wait and see what comes. Either way, BMP makes a strong point.

[stelwibe]

So is this deck/company/person that risky? Isn't he basically being called out because he is trying to sell decks and cover costs (and maybe make a little $$). Money is fungible whether it pays an electric bill, a supplier bill or a salary -and it seems like most people doing decks do it as a labor of love and not for the incredible net hourly pay rate or to put filet mignon on the table every night. I was ready to pledge, but now have some concerns after reading this thread.

Let me start with the fact I have never met, talked with or bought anything from Collin/Bedeceived. Dont know him from Adam (no offense to any Adams, just a figure of speech). Also I am relatively new to playing cards although I have been learning/lurking on this and the previous website for a while. If I am picking up on statements and innuendos correctly:

- Bmpokerworld has concerns. Bmpokerworld has done an outstanding job of promoting this hobby and artistry. Their commitment, time and business model puts them as one of the best. I will buy from them knowing they make a profit every time they sell me a deck (they need to or they will not be in business very long). I am just surprised by the volume of postings and did not know if it was business model related because Bedeceived did not go the wholesale route, if it was a more general warning related to someone who is cash tight, or if there was something specific to Bedeceived that should increase their risk beyond that of someone else in the same situation. I value your thoughts and would appreciate understanding where you are coming from, NOT wanting any details if it is Bedeceived specific.

- sinsandman - Is there something specific about Collin/bedeceived that would make you think he might "take the cash, run and not look back"? The guy has created and sold what appears to be 2 outstanding decks, and has seemed honest about his intentions. Not every business works. Anyone would want to minimize losses. I know there are "bad people" out there, but he has good history and I assume is innocent until proven guilty (maybe naive and foolish on my part). Would be helpful to know if the concern is specific (do NOT want to know details if it is) or more just general.

- isn't Kickstarter where people go to get/enhance funding they do not have? I assume many who have posted have supported projects with less known about the credibility of the project creator. I also assume there are posters in this thread who have utilized or benefitted from projects run on Kickstarter either in building or sustaining their business. Can someone explain why this is more risky than other decks that have utilize both kickstarter and preorder/websites to sell the same card deck?

I am not trying to call anyone out or put anyone on the spot, everyone is entitled to posting whatever opinion they have without a need to justify. I am just perplexed by the quantity of negative posts and wonder if I am missing something. Maybe I am reading too much into what has been said, but there is a difference between risk related statements based on broad general concerns and those based on tangible specific experiences. Some in this thread have gotten pretty specific and I dont want to lose $$ if there is something I should be concerned about. Am I missing something here?

[BMPokerworld]

Stelwibe wrote: - Bmpokerworld has concerns. Bmpokerworld has done an outstanding job of promoting this hobby and artistry. Their commitment, time and business model puts them as one of the best. I will buy from them knowing they make a profit every time they sell me a deck (they need to or they will not be in business very long). I am just surprised by the volume of postings and did not know if it was business model related because Bedeceived did not go the wholesale route, if it was a more general warning related to someone who is cash tight, or if there was something specific to Bedeceived that should increase their risk beyond that of someone else in the same situation. I value your thoughts and would appreciate understanding where you are coming from, NOT wanting any details if it is Bedeceived specific.

We never asked about buying this deck wholesale. The only deck we ever asked about was their first one and we could not come to terms, so we passed. Sometimes that happens. I would never let whether they were willing to sell wholesale or not, affect my public comments about a deck. That would make me a bully and would be unfair to them.

Wholesaling or not is a business decision that every business owner has to make. Do I think it is a mistake not to wholesale? Sure. When I printed my premier back and brown rider backs, I wholesaled both of them. Why? Because it just makes sense. You make less money, but you are moving product quickly and you are making your deck more readily available to the collecting community. You have to remember, not everyone who collects playing cards buys from eBay or participates in this or other forums. Their only access to the card collecting world may be the few websites they do business with.

I am not saying that Bedeceived is more or less likely to default on delivering the deck. I was simply pointing out that their reasons for using Kickstarter are probably not the actual reasons and it is much more likely that the pre-order did not do as well as they hoped and need the additional funds to have the deck produced. That is a much more logical explanation for their actions.

Thanks!

[c.stover]

Hey guys,

First of all, I hope you are doing well, and I'm glad that Russell invited me to the forums to give my side of the story. I am open to answering any and all questions you guys may have. I'm going to put it all out on the table and be as honest as humanly possible here. I believe in transparency, and I do share things about my business that many people may not. I do it because I believe honesty prevails, especially in situations like these where it seems some peoples' trust in me is on the line.

I have acquired a lot of debt from Bedeceived. As many of you may know, I started Bedeceived when I was only 16. I started it because I had a magic effect that wouldn't get accepted anywhere else. I figured, why not build my own site? So I did. I sold exactly one copy of that first magic effect, and that sale felt amazing. Pretty soon, I began building a reputation through the community I was attempting to build on my site (a forum not unlike this one). I believed that an amazing customer experience and honesty were what would win me business from the bigger guys out there.

In November of 2011, my stepfather took out a loan from his credit union because he believed in me, and I had shown success up to that point. This loan would pay for the Style Deck, up front. I needed money to pay a designer (Jason Wither), and of course money to print the deck itself. This credit union debt wouldn't simply go away of course, and to cope with those initial costs, I prereleased the deck. It was a huge success (not as big of a success as the Mystery Deck, but we acquired the money we had initially spent). The problem was, we had NO IDEA what went into shipping a deck of playing cards. We made a lot of mistakes. When I say a lot, I mean we barely had any money to show for it by the end. Just around $2,000. That money was spent on a trip across the country to film an effect (which was a complete bust) as well as regular costs to upkeep the website and such.

So here I was. I wanted to put out a second deck of playing cards, but had no money to do so. The first deck was successful enough to get us most of the original money back, and my parents still believed in me. I wouldn't be anywhere without them, honestly. We received a small $10k credit line from our bank for the business, and this would pay for the Mystery Deck. In the beginning, mistakes were made again. We had more wholesale orders than last time (to those of you asking, yes — we do wholesale. We've wholesaled continuously to about 10 companies, most of them in Asia). Mistakes were made, shipments were damaged, and we were out of our money again. This time, with a $6k outstanding credit to pay.

I decided that enough was enough. We would count our losses (mostly my parents, as horrible as I felt), and we decided we wouldn't produce a third deck.

This is when I began really getting serious about design. I felt horrible about letting my parents down financially (even though they're so proud of me and let me know it all the time), the more I thought about it — I decided I needed to get them their money back. They didn't ask for it. I wanted to get it. I said I would cut the costs by designing it myself. It would be a difficult task, and it was.

When finished designing, I did something a bit risky, which is where most of you are seeing an issue. I put up the deck on the Bedeceived website without having the money up front. There was no money up front, so it was impossible to do so. I felt confident (no pun intended) that the deck would sell out quickly, we would have the money, and all would be right with the world. We would finish up that deck, pay off my parents' debt, and I could move on to being a full-time designer.

Well, as Murphy's law would have it, it didn't. The deck funded on our site just about 50% (mostly from wholesale). The USPCC didn't even ask for the downpayment up front, and began printing the deck. I figured the other 50% would come eventually. The other decks had sold out before that amount of time, so why wouldn't this one? Orders slowed to a complete halt, and I was left with $4000 still to collect to get the deck. I approached the House of Playing Cards about purchasing all of the decks to sell on their own site, to no avail. I tried new marketing techniques — nothing. It was then that I decided I would use Kickstarter to fund the rest of the money I needed.

I understood from the get-go that it looked a little strange. I didn't, and still don't, think I did anything wrong by using Kickstarter. My biggest mistake was in taking the risk of preorders through my site without the money to back them up if they didn't fund completely. I had a responsibility to my customers, however, to see the deck through. So I launched on Kickstarter in hopes that the familiar platform and multiple rewards would spur people into buying. I set the goal as low as I humanly could, and launched. It funded (as you see) within 24 hours, and that makes me hopeful that the deck will ship out (hopefully with no problems) as planned, I will recoup the money I owe my parents, and have a clean slate to begin the rest of my professional life.

Someone mentioned this being a labor of love. It definitely is. I have not personally seen a dime out of this. Even when this is over, I will not see a dime. The money will fly right out the door to the USPCC, the USPS, and then finally, the bank credit line. I will not receive money, I will not see profit. So this project wasn't my "exit strategy" to cut and run from my customers. It was a way of me fulfilling my responsibility to my customers, my parents, and myself.

That's why I'm hoping a few of you will change your minds. Even if you don't back the project, I'd just like to know that I have the community on my side here. I've never used my age as an excuse for any of my mistakes. I knew it would be difficult going into it. I didn't realize how difficult it would really be, and because of that I've made a lot of mistakes. I'll be the first one to admit that.

Why didn't I post this long story before? Firstly, I didn't think launching on Kickstarter would be a huge deal to the majority of people. I thought a couple people might find it odd, but I could simply explain what I've already explained and that would be fine. But mostly, I was embarrassed. No one wants to admit they've put their parents in debt. It's not like they're not able to afford food or anything like that. The debt isn't that bad. But it's debt nonetheless. No one likes to admit that they've made a bunch of mistakes, or that after 2 successful products they have nothing to show for it. No one wants to admit any of that.

So hopefully I've made myself clearer with that monumental post. If you read it all, please go get some fresh air . I promise I'm not a bad guy. I'm not out to hurt anyone, cheat anyone, or lie. I've been as honest as I've thought I've needed to be throughout all of my business. I pride myself in that, and want to show that to everyone else, too.

If anyone has any questions for me, I'd be happy to answer them either on here, or via email at ceo@bedeceived.com. Thank you for taking the time to read this post, and have a great night.

Collin

[Russell]

Hey Collin,

Thanks for coming on the boards and giving us the scoop directly from the horse's mouth!

- Russell